The best 'tank' protagonist
Moonheart
Member Posts: 520
I kinda like theorycrafting. It's like puzzle games applied to RPG.
During my Children of Fire playthrough, until now, my protagonist, which is a Dragon Disciple, always has been more able to last in melee than any of my companions, which kinda surprised me.
Using the common items every one can wear (Ring of Kargaax, Ring of Earth Control, Cloak of Sewer, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (or a helmet), and an item bringing +2 non-stackable AC for a total of 7AC bonus compared to its base) and arcane spells (like Blur and Spirit Armor), it can in fact reach a -18AC while being warded by two layers of physical protection, something totaly impossible for the melee companions I have
But if it's good, I do not think it is the end of it... so my question is kinda generic: assuming playing in a full party, which would the best class to take if the goal was to make the protagonist play the meatshield of the team?
Comments
It may reach 80% resistance to physical damage (Defender of Easthaven+Hardiness+ innate resistances). That's undispellable, which is worth noting.
It has barbarian rage: many immunities to status effect, extra CON=> extra HP
It has, of course, access to the cloak of mirroring, negating damage from spell, and if you do not want to use that, it has access to all armors and stuff to negate elemental damage.
If you equip foebane on mainhand you end up about invincible (healing about as much as you are dealt)
On top of that it requires little to 0 micromanagement.
> @wubble said:
> I played a sword and board elven fighter and he didn't disappoint. He had an unbuffed ac of -17 or something towards the end and a hell of a lot of health, he was pretty much immune to missile fire as his missile ac was even better. he also took out enemies before they could do too much damage (especially when using improved haste and the critical strike HLA).
AC is not worth that much in ToB unless you push it very low (which would be -20 or lower than that, with specific AC bonuses (those provided by some belts or based on armor types)).
> Arunsun said:
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> A barbarian certainly is the best tank:
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> It may reach 80% resistance to physical damage (Defender of Easthaven+Hardiness+ innate resistances). That's undispellable, which is worth noting.
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> It has barbarian rage: many immunities to status effect, extra CON=> extra HP
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> It has, of course, access to the cloak of mirroring, negating damage from spell, and if you do not want to use that, it has access to all armors and stuff to negate elemental damage.
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> If you equip foebane on mainhand you end up about invincible (healing about as much as you are dealt)
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> On top of that it requires little to 0 micromanagement.
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> > @wubble said:
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> > I played a sword and board elven fighter and he didn't disappoint. He had an unbuffed ac of -17 or something towards the end and a hell of a lot of health, he was pretty much immune to missile fire as his missile ac was even better. he also took out enemies before they could do too much damage (especially when using improved haste and the critical strike HLA).
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> AC is not worth that much in ToB unless you push it very low (which would be -20 or lower than that, with specific AC bonuses (those provided by some belts or based on armor types)).
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> -17 was easily buffed to -20 for boss fights but most of the normal ones couldn't get past -17 before I chunked them. I also had a fair few resistances.
Well, looking at the figures, even -20 is pretty much useless against bosses, since Abazigal and Demogorgon have -27 Thac0, Amelyssan has -16 or so, ...
Thanks to mage spells like Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Blur, Protection from Normal Weapons, Protection from Magic Weapons, etc etc a character can be immune to physical attacks as long as these spells are active. Moreover, there're spells like Spirit Armour to improve your AC. There're also a lot of ways to protect yourself against magic if you're a mage.
Then, there's the Armour of Faith spell and long-lasting buffs like Death Ward and Chaotic Commands. A character protected with these spells can "tank" against enemies when you require certain protections.
If you're a mage you can protect yourself from dispelling these cleric buffs with the Spell Immunity spell.
And then there's Hardiness HLA. And the fact that a fighter can kill things faster due to getting higher APR which lets you kill enemies before your protections wear off.
So, when I use this approach, I get a FMC as the best possible tank.
>> Arunsun said:
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>> A barbarian certainly is the best tank:
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>> It may reach 80% resistance to physical damage (Defender of Easthaven+Hardiness+ innate resistances). That's undispellable, which is worth noting.
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> Stoneskin is 100% resistance to physical damage, I like it better ;)
Stoneskin lasts for a limited amount of hit, it is dispellable, it takes one spellcast (meaning one round) on a spellcasting class, which is far from insignificant. Before you use the spell immunity argument and that kind of stuff, let me remind you that all of this is dispellable somehow, and each requires micromanagement, and takes several round to get it all ready after it is dispelled.
It's not nearly as easy to use as a barbarian casting hardiness, barbarian rage if needed, and requiring 0 micro-management, and it takes a lot more for a slightly better result only.
I don't think it's only "a little better result only", @Arusun
A barbarian is for me a tank with a LOT of blindspots, what a tanking spellcaster is not.
With a Barbarian, how can you tank a mage using Imprisonment? or just Maze? How do you survive a mind flayer's Devour Brain? How do you counter confusion?
Also, 80% damage resistance is nothing compared to the ability to summon an almost endless flow of self-copies and Mordenkanein's Swords... and it exist no enemy able to cast enough Death Spell PLUS True enough time to stop them all.
While I agree that a Barbarian is simplier to use, he can't tank everything. Arcane spellcasters can.
That's not just "a little better", that's a world between the two.
Plus, if you want simplicity, there are mage options too. Like Berserk(8)>Mage. In one click, +2AC and immunity to almost everything that is bothering for a melee character during one turn. And you can do it twice on each summoned copy of the protagonist... and keep all the defensive mage options in addition against problematic foes
Overall, though, I agree with @bengoshi that the F/M/C is the top, as you can use total damage blockers or high DR depending on what the situation calls for, and between Spell Immunity, Shield of the Archons, and the various Clerical silver bullets, you can stop whatever incoming magic you need to worry about.
Come to think about Berserker(8)>Mage... it could be fun if played correctly.
Prepare two things:
- Chain Contingency (Enemy Sighted) with Project Image, Simulacrum and Mislead
- Spell Trigger with Spirit Armor, Blur, and Tenser's Transformation
Then walk around... when you reach an enemy, the contingency immediatly makes you invisible and summon 3 clones: one decoy (Mislead), one spellcaster (Project Image), and tank (Simulacrum)... then:
The main character can summon back the mage if it dies, the mage can summon back the tank if it dies, the tank could summon back the decoy... but who gives a damn?
Gratz, you achieved to be an army all by yourself, without spending a single spell on your true character, on top of that
I thought about the Blade too, but I lack experience to know if they can use the Improved Bard Song while tanking
Imprisonment? Slayer form works well, book of infinite spell. You can count the enemy with imprisonment on one hand, and have those solutions if needed.
Confusion? Barbarian rage
Mind flayer Devour brain? Get some armor class, you should manage to get a decent one, and that along with 11 or 16 int is enough for any mindflayer fight.
We could argue all day on which is better, but the fact is both can tank any fight, Mage is slightly better but Barbarian can tank any fight as well and requires much, much less micromanagement, which makes it better as a team tank
But the question is: what is does best than a Berserker8>Mage that is worth loosing the arsenal of defensive spells?
Yeah pretty much, I've played barbarian a few times and AC >>>>> HP until late SoA/ToB. You really have to play hit-and-run and avoid targeting.
I've messed with a melee-tank sorcerer before. It's pretty gimmicky but their lasting power is immense because they can refresh whatever buffs they need mid-combat and don't need to shift their spells around like the mage classes.
- standard sword&board fighter - high HP pool, easy to maintain. Equipment-dependant
- barbarian / dwarven defender - higher HP pool, innate immunities. A bit less resistant to magical dmg
- mage/sorceror/DD - stoneskin, various other buffs, low HP pool, Magic-depentant
- fighter/mage - Higher HP pool, able to use all equipment+shields + magical buffs and stoneskin
- fighter/cleric - High HP pool, self-buffs, self-healing if necessary
- monk - magical dmg tank, not so much for normal dmg
- blade - Low HP, low AC with defensive spin + magical buffs
Hell...the "best" tank would probably be a Fighter-Mage, sword & board I reckon. Decent HP for a tank, decent AC (buffed, with a shield), almost absolute immunity to missiles (shield spec) and spells to enhance all that.
In my experience, mages make the strongest tanks in BG2. They simply have too many castings of Mirror Image and Stoneskin for enemies to deal with. They replenish their defenses faster than the enemy can wear them down. Once their defenses are down, they're pudding, but anyone who has played SCS knows that a properly-buffed mage is always the hardest enemy to kill.
Before level 7, I'd hand it to a Dwarven Defender or Berserker. Blades have brilliant AC, but few defenses against magical attacks and disablers. Barbarians have big immunities, but their AC is poor and they don't get damage resistances until midway through SoA--before then, all they have is higher HP than other warriors, and it's not by much. Monks, likewise, are only sturdy once they reach higher levels. Their much-exalted magic resistance doesn't kick in until level 14, and even on a monk's level progression, that takes time. Mages get their best defenses at the beginning of Shadows of Amn.
Berserkers have the broadest variety of immunities of any kit, and these immunities can't be dispelled (though they can be Breached, though you don't really see that happen). They also have access to the best armors, and those have a huge impact before BG2. Having an extra 15 temporary AC makes them especially resilient. They can also dual-class into a mage later on.
Dwarven Defenders have a 50% resistance to physical damage via Defensive Stance, as well as CON-based saving throw bonuses, which Blades, monks, and mages cannot get.
Physical tanks are only asked to tank physical attacks, while the spellcasters of the team focus to disable opponing spellcasters to prevent them to annoy the tank, while full tanks tank physical AND magical attacks together
For a physical tank, Barbarian, Dwarven Defender and Blades are really good. They only tank a bit less than a plain mage, but with a lot less of management, as @Arunsun pointed out.
However, as a physical tank, I'll prefer Blades over Barbarian or Dwarven Defender. Their AC is just insane
For a full tank, however Rage or level 6 spells are not enough. You cannot build a perfect anti-spell defense without use Shield of Archons or Spell Trap, because without them, anti-defense spells with pierce through ALL your layers of defense in one or two casts.... which mean that the opponent need two cast to destroy what takes you perhaps up to 10 casts to build.
Shield of the Archons or Spell Trap reverse this: to pass through it, an opponent need at least 4 cast for a defense that I can build with 1 cast.
Thus, I cannot see a full tank not be a cleric, mage or sorcerer. And as far as the other tanking concerns go, mages and sorcerers do everything better than a cleric.
The main problem with mages are however their lack of AC, which can be improved with the Dragon Disciple kit or multi/dualing into cleric or figher to allow the use of shield.
Dualing from Kensai/Berserker will bring 2 more AC...
... but now I think about it, the Dragon Disciple could be the real winner at the end of the race for the full tank's best class. Because... it gains the same AC than a Kensai/Mage or a Berserker/Mage once he earns the Staff of Magi, but he has more spells, more hp and gets an immunity to fire
That's only for tanking however. Berserker/Mage and Kensai/Mage use their weapons a lot better than a Dragon Disciple... no mystery at the end why they are considered as the strongest builds of the game
Physical damage
Spell damage
Status effect
Anyone can tank spell damage with the cloak of mirroring.
Physical damage can be tanked in three different way:
low duration/ hit-limited buffs that give 100% immunity: stoneskin and PfMW for example
damage reduction, undispellable or easy to recast, or AC.
Arcane spellcasters may get immunity. Druid could be a match if its iron skin were 1/10th of a round cast time (as it is meant to be) instead of 1 full round.
As for damage resistance, Barbarian, DDef, F/C, ranger and blackguard rule, as they all get 80-90% physical damage resistance which is more than enough to tank anything.
As for AC, it tends to work poorly lategame. It is hardcapped at -20+ dex bonus+ single weapon style bonus+ specific AC. A Blade wants to dual-wield and its dex would be at best 20, maybe 21, anyway that's a -25 cap, which is not enough to tank really strong enemies
For status effect, barbarian are very good, berserker as well (even slightly better), which is why barbarian and Berserker/Mage are both very good.
I do feel however that even when it comes to evert aspect, a Mage does better than the other position.
- Physical Resistance: Mages have strong option even before HLA, and cant make them last longer by the end of the game
- Magic Resistance: Mage have options even before the Cloak of Mirroring
- Status effects: Mage can counter everything. Rage doesn't.
Sure, it requiers a bit more work, even if a Berserker/Mage gets a bit of the best on the two side, but with a few clicks more, I don't see any situation where a non-Mage would tank better than a Mage
Besides Int drain, Berserker rage counters absolutely every single status effect. And a decent AC and not so bad int (11) as well.
Idem with Barbarian rage except that it won't work against imprisonment, but this can be countered by ring of spell turning or book of infinite spell...
Shield of the Archons and Spell Trap are not necessary. (Minor) Spell Deflection and Spell Turning are sufficient to block Breach and Finger of Death spells and the like, and will last just as long, considering most enemies remove such protections with magic attacks, not by burning through it with sheer spell levels.
Well, cloak of the Lich would work but is only obtainable pretty late, same for Hindo's Doom. You got a point.