[Endgame Spoilers] Skie in BG2EE?
Calemyr
Member Posts: 238
So here's the thing. With the exception of M'Khiin, Skie is quite possibly the biggest pleasant surprise in Siege of Dragonspear. While she never joins the party, she follows a parallel story of personal growth and evolution that has turned her from one of the weakest characters in the franchise into an unexpectedly strong one, if you follow it.
And now she is dead.
But there was an aspect of her death that was a real surprise. She turned into the Slayer. Of course, you were both clearly under the influence of a powerful mage who could have used illusion and enchantment to trick you into seeing what he wanted you to see, but the guy has never been shown to be a believer in either school, not to the level of mastery that stunt would have required.
So here's the first question: Which do you believe it was? Was Skie actually a Bhaalspawn, or did Irenicus (despite not being related to your dreams of the Slayer) just use imagery he somehow knew you wouldn't question? Was Irenicus in fact tracking four candidates (you, Imoen, Caelar, and Skie), rather than just the two he actively claims?
And the second question: Should you be able to recover her in BG2EE? Would it just be to get much needed closure for the stunningly abrupt end to that quest? Given her growth in SoD would, would you want her in your party to see how far that growth can take her? Would you want her to come back as just a rich brat trying to make something of herself, or would you want her to learn she's a Bhaalspawn and have to come to terms with that?
I'm really curious what you folk would have to say on the matter. The more I've thought about it, the more I've wanted to see a Bhaalspawn Skie in BG2. I believe she could, if well written, be a wonderful counterbalance to Kid Sis Imoen and Bastard Brother Sarevok, while further exploring the themes of identity and family.
And now she is dead.
But there was an aspect of her death that was a real surprise. She turned into the Slayer. Of course, you were both clearly under the influence of a powerful mage who could have used illusion and enchantment to trick you into seeing what he wanted you to see, but the guy has never been shown to be a believer in either school, not to the level of mastery that stunt would have required.
So here's the first question: Which do you believe it was? Was Skie actually a Bhaalspawn, or did Irenicus (despite not being related to your dreams of the Slayer) just use imagery he somehow knew you wouldn't question? Was Irenicus in fact tracking four candidates (you, Imoen, Caelar, and Skie), rather than just the two he actively claims?
And the second question: Should you be able to recover her in BG2EE? Would it just be to get much needed closure for the stunningly abrupt end to that quest? Given her growth in SoD would, would you want her in your party to see how far that growth can take her? Would you want her to come back as just a rich brat trying to make something of herself, or would you want her to learn she's a Bhaalspawn and have to come to terms with that?
I'm really curious what you folk would have to say on the matter. The more I've thought about it, the more I've wanted to see a Bhaalspawn Skie in BG2. I believe she could, if well written, be a wonderful counterbalance to Kid Sis Imoen and Bastard Brother Sarevok, while further exploring the themes of identity and family.
- [Endgame Spoilers] Skie in BG2EE?92 votes
- Leave Skie dead.26.09%
- We should have the chance to save (but not recruit) Skie, just for closure.17.39%
- Bring back Skie, but leave her human.7.61%
- Bring back Skie, but as a Bhaalspawn.1.09%
- What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!19.57%
- She should come back, be recruitable, and be a romance option. I want to call Eltan Silvershield "Dad" and watch his reaction.28.26%
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Comments
That sirine kills a party member but is able to easily raise them.
Dynaheir and Khalid are killed and can in no way be resurrected.
We have access to the wish spell and limited wish yet can't bring people back from the dead if the plot says they stay dead.
I would rather not add to this inconsistency by bringing Skie back, as I don't really see how another Bhaalspawn would add to the existing story at all. Not with "I'm back but no longer a Bhaalspawn" Sarevok, "I'll give up my Bhaal essence wait why couldn't everyone just do that then?" Imoen and "decades later Abdel and Viekang are still running around with Bhaal's essence, thereby invalidating the point of the series" FR canon.
I would like the murder accusation resolved in BG2 but that doesn't require Skie being resurrected and made a recruitable party member.
1) Ritualized killings that render them beyond resurrection, almost certainly tied to Bhaal as the God of Murder has to have a counter to death's revolving door. As a very inquisitive student of Bhaal and his legacy, Sarevok would have certainly used such to execute Gorion and Irenicus would have employed it when killing Dynaheir and Khalid in order to break Imoen and the Scion. Gaider's Ascension mod suggests that even as a full god yourself, you only have the power to resurrect one victim of Murder.
2) Yoshimo being bound by the Geas or finally at peace. I know there's no "if the character wishes to" clause in the AD&D rules for resurrection, but I like to think it's always been implied, if only for friendly resurrections. Yoshimo spent the entire first three and a half chapters being utterly tortured by the fact that he doesn't want to betray the party, but has no choice due to that bloody geas. He then dies with it unfulfilled, tormenting him in death as well. Taking his heart to Ilmater finally gives him respite, and he has no reason to wish to return.
Why is she Bhaalspawn?
1) There are plenty of better ways a high level mage could prevent resurrection if his motive is simply to cover up a murder. Dismemberment for a start! The intention here is clearly to make her resurectable when the dagger is found.
2) Why would Irenicus or Beamdog care about ressurecting her is she was simply the wayward daughter of a Duke? Skie-just-a-thief isn't a sufficiently significant character to go to so much trouble.
Why won't this feature in BG2EE?
a) The "Crystal Casket" is clearly a way of preserving a body long term. A different plot divice could have been used if the intention was to bring her back within s year or so.
b) A Crystal Casket is not very portable. It would simply be to much extra plot to return to Baldur's Gate from Amn even if the dagger where found.
c) She isn't sufficently interesting or popular enough to bring pack if you just intend her to be an additional NPC companion.
Conclusion: She is a plot divice for ressurecting a Bhaalspawn many many years after they where all supposed to have died and been reabsorbed. I.e, in BG3.
Re: Gorion, I really took it as the PC was too low level and too poor to afford to raise him, not that he was physically unable to be raised. Or maybe by the time we have the funds to do so, his body was in a bad enough state that it couldn't be raised. We don't have access to a reincarnation spell in the entire series, and the wish spells aren't available in BG1.
For Khalid and Dynaheir, though, I think it's just because the writers didn't want to carry over too many NPCs from the first game and they wanted to break up the automatic pairs. (I still don't know why they thought having us romance freshly widowed mother figure Jaheira was a good idea even though I like the romance out of context.) I had the impression that Khalid was simply killed and then dissected. How/why would Irenicus know rituals specific to Bhaal to perform? He's just about unlocking divine power, not the Bhaal-specific stuff that would lead to the god's resurrection.
And Dynaheir was killed in front of Minsc, Imoen says "oh that's awful I'm so sorry" indicating that she wasn't present when Dynaheir died. So I think she was just killed as collateral damage during capture or imprisonment rather than as intentional torture.
It's all an issue of gameplay and story not always meshing, really, so I'm not blaming Bio or Beamdog or anyone for this. It's what happens in a setting where mid level priests can raise the dead. One of the reasons I like the Dragon Age setting more.
However, it raises a few problems. First, if Skie is not popular enough to be a supporting character, she's not popular enough to be primary character, and as the sole surviving Bhaalspawn, she'd have to play a major role. Also, she's a defined character: it wouldn't be BG if the main character was defined, and players tend to resent it when your not the main character of your own story. It's not an insurmountable challenge, especially for a good writer, but I would question whether it's a worthwhile one.
Second, the body itself is not necessary for higher grades of resurrection. This may be a change made in later editions, but the game does support it by not requiring you to lug bodies around. Conceit of gaming, perhaps, but still.
Last, unless BG3 is much, much closer than we've ever imagined, that's going to be splinter in the skin of the narrative needing address for quite some time. The whole incident is a slap in the face that demands response (which is actually high praise from a narrative perspective), and leaving completely unresolved for the remainder of the Scion's life isn't a satisfying outcome. It shouldn't be satisfying now (the point is that we got robbed by Irenicus and should feel indignant about it), but there should be hope that a satisfying conclusion is coming.
Still, I'm quite impressed and wish I could add another option.
@Vbibbi - You, too, make an excellent point. It was, absolutely, meant as a ploy to cut the party down and make room for a more fluid cast, and Dynaheir's death was explicitly not done in front of Imoen. I readily admit I'm just trying to find a narrative that makes as much sense as possible.
Gorion, however, I can't agree with. You meet Elminster in the very next map, where he is clearly already aware of who you are and what happened. You may not be able to pay for a resurrection, but he could. So one of three things had to have happened: Elminster decided to just leave an old friend to rot for inscrutable reasons, he knew the resurrection wasn't possible, or he walked over, picked up Gorion, got him resurrected, and have spent much of the series giggling over the prank they pulled on a pair of kids fresh out on the road.
i think that her being a bhaalspawn is too far fetched. SoD's sometimes difficult to rationalize plot is just that.
i would be very very dissatisfied if she's a bhaalspawn. it would be so contrived...imoen's a bhaalspawn, skie's a bhaalspawn...
However, I would argure that "Bhaalspawn" is just window dressing. The actual plot of Baldur's Gate is "you have inherited a great power. A family member has inherited the same power and intends to use it for evil. Only you can stop him!" So long as BG3 avoids repeating THAT it will be fine.
if corwin ever gets "made" for BG2 i have a strong feeling that skie's murder storyline will be tied to her and will have it's conclusion.
As appealing as having skie back as a joinable or saveable npc, making this one a bhaalspawn is to repeat Imoen's plot, which I think is quite silly.
Heck, BG1 had a number of dreams that were narrated rather than portrayed as a cut-scene, even the phrase "You will learn.", which appears in dreams in both SoD and BG2. The taint has been trying to get a hold of the Scion since the beginning, using experiences and faces fresh in memory to drive home points.
While I don't disregard the possibility of Irenicus actively invading your mind via dreams, I don't think it carries a lot of weight, given the importance of dreaming and the taint on both sides of the interquel. It just isn't necessary, doesn't make sense, and doesn't add anything meaningful. Even then, however, the use of the Slayer in the imagery is strange, especially if you don't think Irenicus's methodology would be intrinsically tied to the source of a godblood's divine essence (i.e. why Khalid and Dynaheir aren't revivable).
Of course, if Irenicus is not actively involved in the dreams, it makes Skie's death rather suspect. If Irenicus is tied to the dreams, he's basically been conditioning the Scion to fight-or-flight at the sight of the Slayer. I don't know about anyone else, but I made the (clearly intended) mistake of assuming the battle with Skie to be another dream. It has about the right feel to it, makes it easy not to question it. But Irenicus being responsible for the dreams muddles the flow of the other games' dreams. If Irenicus wasn't involved, then he accidentally (or as predicted through research) used exactly the right symbology to create that effect, or the symbology wasn't actually intended and Skie is just a Bhaalspawn who Irenicus triggered.
(It is the Slayer, right? I was under the impression that the basic form of the Avatar of Murder was the Slayer, with an upgraded version Gaider meant to introduce called the Ravager. I could be wrong on that, of course.)
I would say Skie would not, in a good writer's hands, be an Imoen rip-off. Imoen's hook is clinging to innocence in the face of reality. She wants to be the happy hero in spite of tragedy, in spite of torture, in spite of having her soul ripped out, in spite of discovering she's also Bhaalspawn. Her ending is that she finds a way to find a happy medium, becoming a mischievous criminal kingpin in Waterdeep.
Skie, however, has a very different situation. Unlike Imoen, Skie always knew who she was. She was the daughter of the Silvershield family, the apple of her father's eye, raised in the nicest house, by virtue of birth the unquestioned belle of any ball, and generally sheltered to the point of ennui. Kid isn't the wisest in the world, but she's smart and far too energetic to find bossing around house staff and finding/supporting a "noble" husband to be satisfying. Imoen is just rolling with the punches, trying to stay on her feet as revelations and experiences keep chipping away at her foundations, while Skie is actively rebelling, trying to prove herself and claim her own sense of identity and happiness rather than the one she was given.
The way I'd play a post-SoD Skie is this: Being completely removed from the Silvershield family is both a dream come true and a total nightmare. She feels absolutely horrible for the suffering "Daddy" must have gone through, and the trouble her death caused for the Scion (who she doesn't blame even if they did kill her). She never really understood what her family meant to her until it was suddenly all gone - the suffocating over-protectiveness, the need to prove herself, the obligations of so-called high society... It's like not respecting air until you're drowning, and that's exactly what it feels like.
The Bhaalspawn thing, that's just salt in the wound. Finally free of the constraints of one lineage, she finds herself bound by one she can never escape. And now she finds that she doesn't care that her dreams now taunt her with macabre images and disturbing conversations, or that she suddenly has abilities she never trained for. She is not the daughter of the god of Murder, she's the daughter of Entar Silvershield, and no amount of this supernatural crap is going to change it. And she's going to prove it. She's going to be the hero she always believed her father to be, come Hell or high water, and Bhaal is free to come along for the ride if he can even manage to hold on.
Basically, I'd use her to represent a different angle to being a Bhaalspawn. Sarevok wants to claim his lineage for himself and do anything in his power to make it happen (or, barring that, to be a key factor in making it happen for the only sibling he respects). Imoen treats it like discovering she has a disease and struggles to cope with the symptoms without letting it dictate her life. The Scion more or less rises above it and treats Bhaal as the embarrassing uncle whose antics keep making their life more and more complicated, with the whole chain of events being little more than familial responsibility and a bid to keep their own skin. I'd use Skie to play it in a more KotOR 2 sort of way, where she was never able to know who she was until she died, always floundering after any opportunity thrown her way. It is only now, faced with the grim truth, that she finally is able to define herself through conflict with it. "I may not have been born a Silvershield, but my father's blood runs more thickly through my veins than any god's."
I think that could be outright badass.
So, in it's darkest hour the city is ruled by a foolish, out of touch, mistrusted, illegitimate kid.
Answering your questions.
1. No, Skie was not a Bhaalspawn. She's Entar's daughter. Second, I the scene with the Slayer was either a dream of illusion. Whatever the case, charname killed Skie without realizing it.
2. It was specifically stated that Skie could not be raised from death. If I would like to see someone from Siege of Dragonspear, it would be Caelar in ToB. Depending on PC's actions at the end of SoD, recovering Caelar from her... situation would make much more sense and be more duable, especiall since there is a way to summon people to the Pocket Plane.
To counter your points:
1. If you choose to "Benny Hill" the fight with Skie (i.e. run away and never fight back), Irenicus gets mad and kills her himself. You even get a different cutscene where it's Irenicus with a blade to her throat, and Irenicus being a bit... disappointed?... at the fact that you remember it. Besides, even Firkraag states that Gorion is as much the Scion's father as Bhaal. You don't have to have blood ties to be family.
2. It's explicitly stated in SoD that Skie can not be raised from death because of the Soultaker Dagger, an artifact explicitly designed to capture the soul of an individual. In Tales of the Sword Coast, it was used to capture a demon and imprison them. In SoD, it captures Skie's soul and makes it impossible to revive her.
1. Didn't know about that possibility. Anyways, Irenicus wanted you to kill Skie, hence the "dream" or "illusion" thing. An adventurer like charname should have no moral troubles with killing a monster, right?
About Skie and Entar, I think Entar is her biological father. Nothing is stated otherwise, and his reaction to her death is very convincing.
2. If it is truly the way you describe, then theoretically it would be possible to bring her back in BG2. If her body is still in shape to be ressurected in, that is. I'm not that familiar with FR's customs regarding burials, especially among nobles, but I think there is possibility her body would be burned, and her ashes buried or something along these lines.
Barring that, however, a wish would be sufficient.
Personally, I think getting the dagger should be trivial in BG2 (you're walking around unrestricted in his lab, breaking and stealing stuff from all corners). It's getting access to the absurdly high level magic to bring her back that's the quest. Amn may have a comically high average level, but casters that can toss level 7 cleric or level 9 wizard spells around are still hard to come by.
1. You can ressurect her...
2. ...But she's not a Bhaalspawn.
But I'll be blunt. This is 99% a mod material (as is Caelar in ToB). I highly doubt devs will implement something like this, given that their current contract limits them greately.
Frankly, I have toyed with the idea of doing a mod for BG2EE based on SoD. I don't have much experience modding Infinity (a few minor ease of use things for my own amusement), and I don't know if I qualify as a "good" enough writer to be worth it, but Caelar and Skie would both be very interesting characters to explore, if viewed from the right angle. Unfortunately, I find Skie has more potential because I don't know of anyone who actually likes ToB and Caelar wouldn't work until you're at least level 15.
Given the reaction on this poll, however, it doesn't seem like many would want to see a mod bringing back Skie.
2. I've played through SoD only once. So please forgive me not remember details like that.