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[Endgame Spoilers] Skie in BG2EE?

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  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Fardragon said:

    Not an answer. Why do you think it's a bad trope? Come to think of it, what trope do you think it is? I would say it's the Snow White/Sleeping Beauty trope, which, far from being bad, is a classic.

    Because of the fact that it's been so overdone, I dislike that trope. Beamdog's writers (especially Gaider) can do much better.

  • LegendaryLegendary Member Posts: 53
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    The ending, I thought, made it pretty clear that Skie was not actually the slayer. The part you actually play in the game is an illusion and what you see during the ending is what really happens. That's why he says the same line 'No matter, I only require your presence' in both cutscenes. They're parallel. The first one, the fight you play, is fake. The cutscene is the truth.

    What happened was that he held Skie infront of you and she was unable to move. He convinced you that she turned in to the slayer and that you were being attacked so that you would cut her down. If you do not, he kills her himself.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016

    Fardragon said:

    Not an answer. Why do you think it's a bad trope? Come to think of it, what trope do you think it is? I would say it's the Snow White/Sleeping Beauty trope, which, far from being bad, is a classic.

    Because of the fact that it's been so overdone, I dislike that trope. Beamdog's writers (especially Gaider) can do much better.
    Really, because, apart from those folk tales and the Arthurian legend, I can't think of many examples. On the other hand "you are the chosen one", "your enemy is your brother", "mad scientist/evil wizard" I can think of many, many examples of those.

    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,679
    Leave Skie dead.
    Fardragon said:

    If you hate her that much, that would make her the ideal villain for BG3....

    I don't hate her. As I said, I found her a whiny one note joke in baldur's gate 1 and her on the rails plot in SOD was ok - for one playthrough - but irritating in how it's like you and everyone else is telling her to stop trying to get herself killed. Then she gets herself killed. You get blamed for it with flimsy evidence. Not exciting.

    You resurface in Amn not long after this and nobody cares. You do the events in TOB and nobody cares about this.

    KampfKaninchenArtona
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    edited June 2016
    I don't think they're bad tropes either, but I don't think it's the baseline for BG3 either. I'd say it could be part of the plotline in some capacity, that is the crystal casket. I won't find myself being positive about the Bhaalspawn idea though.

    Fardragon
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016
    batoor said:

    I don't think they're bad tropes either, but I don't think it's the baseline for BG3 either. I'd say it could be part of the plotline in some capacity, that is the crystal casket. I won't myself being positive about the Bhaalspawn idea though.

    No, I don't see it as the main plot, just the hook to get the protagonist involved in whatever the main plot happens to be.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,679
    Leave Skie dead.
    Fardragon said:

    batoor said:

    I don't think they're bad tropes either, but I don't think it's the baseline for BG3 either. I'd say it could be part of the plotline in some capacity, that is the crystal casket. I won't myself being positive about the Bhaalspawn idea though.

    No, I don't see it as the main plot, just the hook to get the protagonist involved in whatever the main plot happens to be.
    How? Are you the Bhaalspawn and this is a high level campaign or are you Joe, level 1 Adventurer? I can't see how this hook is interesting to either. Convince me.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016
    I put in a suggestion as to how it could be used as a plot hook in the other thread.

    BG3 would obviously feature a new 1st level protagonist, since we know it will use 5th edition rules, and hence take place 150-200 years after the events in BG1.

    I can't promise you it will be interesting, it could be boring as hell, that's down to the quality of the writing, not whatever plot divice happens to be used.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Fardragon said:

    Really, because, apart from those folk tales and the Arthurian legend, I can't think of many examples.

    I can think of loads of animes, books, etc. that use this exact trope. It's so overdone that it's sickening at this point. And keep in mind, it can also be applied to a male role.
    Fardragon said:

    On the other hand "you are the chosen one", "your enemy is your brother", "mad scientist/evil wizard" I can think of many, many examples of those.

    In general, these tropes make the player feel empowered, so I've no issue with the story elements that could potentially come out of these.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016
    Which animes and books use it? I'm not familiar with anime but I have read a heck of a lot of books and can't think of any other examples, apart from some versions of the Aurthurian myth.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited June 2016
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Fardragon said:

    Which animes and books use it? I'm not familiar with anime but I have read a heck of a lot of books and can't think of any other examples, apart from some versions of the Aurthurian myth.

    Skie coming back to life would be the trope "Back From the Dead" ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BackFromTheDead ). Included in that link are tons of examples of use of this trope. Some particular examples:

    Novels:
    Stephen King's Misery
    2 Neil Gaiman books
    Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series -- Those who serve the Dark One come back in a different form but never actually die
    A Song of Fire and Ice -- several instances
    Lord of the Rings -- When Gandalf comes back
    The Dragonlance novels -- 2 main characters die in 1 novel and then come back in other novels

    Anime:
    Sailor Moon -- Is a HUGE offender in this category, with the variation that the characters somehow don't die, despite the show leading the watcher to believe there's no way the heroes survive this time
    Neon Genesis Evangelion
    InuYasha
    Fullmetal Alchemist -- Has a twist on this trope as the main damn theme of the show, where the main characters spend most of the show trying to figure out how to bring their dead mother back and bad things happen every single time they try
    Naturo -- ...I'm not even touching this one; it's such a big offender
    Dragon Ball Z -- Need I say more?!
    Bleach

  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 226
    @rapsam2003, are you honestly saying the problem is "The ability to raise the dead in a D&D setting is an overused trope."? This is the setting of the revolving door afterlife!

    The key problem I have with those examples, however, (other than the fact that most are misleading near misses or instant revivals) is that death rarely affects those involved. Same is the case in Baldur's Gate, for that matter, beyond those whose deaths are a matter of record. Namely Sarevok. Sarevok is deeply changed by his loss, humbled and forced to accept the fact that he was never meant to become the new God of Murder.

    Were it me writing it, Skie's resurrection would not be some small foot-note in her story. It would be a major turning point in her life, on the level of what recognizing what Eldoth actually was must have been. She was stupid, she was reckless, she didn't consider anyone's opinion, and she died for it. Almost for good. It was that close, and she lost an awful lot even in this case. Time to learn from her mistakes and do better, just like she did after Eldoth.

  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Wait a minute, are you saying dating Eldoth equals getting yourself killed? Come on, at last he has the best portrait ever made.

    Artona
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Calemyr said:

    @rapsam2003, are you honestly saying the problem is "The ability to raise the dead in a D&D setting is an overused trope."? This is the setting of the revolving door afterlife!

    Hardly. I'm saying that, when it's clear she is supposed to "stay dead", bringing her back is lame.
    Calemyr said:

    The key problem I have with those examples, however, (other than the fact that most are misleading near misses or instant revivals) is that death rarely affects those involved. Same is the case in Baldur's Gate, for that matter, beyond those whose deaths are a matter of record.

    Agreed.
    Calemyr said:

    Were it me writing it, Skie's resurrection would not be some small foot-note in her story. It would be a major turning point in her life

    I still feel that a better story be created if we shy away from Skie resurrecting period. BG3 is going to be between 150-300 years in the future. No reason to bring her back when it's been that long. It's not as if she was noteworthy in the grand scheme of things. She was a party member. But when people thought of the hero of Baldur's Gate, were they likely to think of Skie as more than a friend of his?...I doubt it, personally.

    Vbibbismeagolheart
  • VirelaiVirelai Member Posts: 19
    edited June 2016
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    I apologize if this has been said above. Re: Skie appearing as the slayer during the endgame murder-hallucination, wasn't there a prior dream where Corwin changed into the slayer as well? So following the 'slayer dream appearance' argument, wouldn't that mean Corwin was also a Bhaalspawn?

    Edit: Spelling :/

  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 226
    Virelai said:

    I apologize if this has been said above. Re: Skie appearing as the slayer during the endgame murder-hallucination, wasn't there a prior dream where Corwin changed into the slayer as well? So following the 'slayer dream appearance' argument, wouldn't that mean Corwin was also a Bhaalspawn?

    Edit: Spelling :/

    No. That was a dream. Completely in keeping with the dreams the Scion experiences in BG1 and BG2. Skie wasn't a dream, not exactly, as it had real life consequences and allowed your interaction with events beyond dialogue options.

    The catch of Skie's death is that she's clearly not meant to stay dead. We've got a number of BG1 characters that couldn't be raised for whatever reason, but Skie is expressly provided a get out of death free card in the form of a dagger that will keep her soul safe from any harm and a crystal casket that will keep her body fit for resurrection whenever the time comes. She is given a perfect framework to be brought back at any point in the story, from tomorrow to three centuries from now, as soon as the dagger is brought back to Baldur's Gate (or to anyone who can cast Resurrection or Wish).

    Personally, I feel Skie has plenty of material to tell a very good story, in the right hands. Unlike most new characters, she is both a BG1 character and has a direct tie to the Scion - whether you like her or not, Bhaalspawn or not, she died expressly because of you.

  • VirelaiVirelai Member Posts: 19
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Calemyr said:

    Virelai said:

    I apologize if this has been said above. Re: Skie appearing as the slayer during the endgame murder-hallucination, wasn't there a prior dream where Corwin changed into the slayer as well? So following the 'slayer dream appearance' argument, wouldn't that mean Corwin was also a Bhaalspawn?

    Edit: Spelling :/

    No. That was a dream. Completely in keeping with the dreams the Scion experiences in BG1 and BG2. Skie wasn't a dream, not exactly, as it had real life consequences and allowed your interaction with events beyond dialogue options.
    But the dreams and the hallucination were all brought on by the same source - Irencius.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,679
    Leave Skie dead.
    Calemyr said:

    Virelai said:

    I apologize if this has been said above. Re: Skie appearing as the slayer during the endgame murder-hallucination, wasn't there a prior dream where Corwin changed into the slayer as well? So following the 'slayer dream appearance' argument, wouldn't that mean Corwin was also a Bhaalspawn?

    Edit: Spelling :/

    No. That was a dream. Completely in keeping with the dreams the Scion experiences in BG1 and BG2. Skie wasn't a dream, not exactly, as it had real life consequences and allowed your interaction with events beyond dialogue options.

    The catch of Skie's death is that she's clearly not meant to stay dead. We've got a number of BG1 characters that couldn't be raised for whatever reason, but Skie is expressly provided a get out of death free card in the form of a dagger that will keep her soul safe from any harm and a crystal casket that will keep her body fit for resurrection whenever the time comes. She is given a perfect framework to be brought back at any point in the story, from tomorrow to three centuries from now, as soon as the dagger is brought back to Baldur's Gate (or to anyone who can cast Resurrection or Wish).

    Personally, I feel Skie has plenty of material to tell a very good story, in the right hands. Unlike most new characters, she is both a BG1 character and has a direct tie to the Scion - whether you like her or not, Bhaalspawn or not, she died expressly because of you.
    If you are going to go for a BG1 char with direct ties to the Scion, Bhaalspawn or not that died expressly because of you wouldn't you pick Sarevok instead of Skie.

  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 226
    Virelai said:

    But the dreams and the hallucination were all brought on by the same source - Irencius.

    As we've discussed previously in this thread, the dreams do not seem to be from Irenicus. The Taint torments the Scion all through BG1 and BG2, using faces and experiences from recent memory to drive its points home. Every chapter of both games have such dreams, whether it's you deciding the fate of Mulahey's ghost or Irenicus preaching about the power and death and what it means to have Murder bred into your bones or Imoen explaining how the Slayer form is a gift you had best appreciate. For the dreams in SoD to be Irenicus, the Taint would have to be taking a breather and we know from the Boarskyre Bridge that it most certainly is not.

    The best excuse I've seen for Skie turning into a Slayer is the theory that Irenicus used an illusion that plucked the victim's worst fears out of their heads and displayed it rather than picked it himself. The Slayer had been killing the Scion on a routine basis all through the expansion, so it would make sense that the embodiment of the Scion's unfortunate blood and the bane of their dreams would be the image selected for the illusion.

    Of course, the Scion's bloodline is hardly a mystery to Irenicus. It would not be hard for a mage like him to predict that the Slayer would factor heavily in his dreams, especially after the incident at the bridge, and implement that in his plan.

    I'm not saying that Skie has to be Bhaalspawn. Just that there's enough evidence to wonder if it's true. Otherwise there would be little need for setting things up to make Skie a permanent resurrection candidate. Irenicus knows how to put corpses past the point of no return, as Khalid saw first hand.

    If you are going to go for a BG1 char with direct ties to the Scion, Bhaalspawn or not that died expressly because of you wouldn't you pick Sarevok instead of Skie.

    Well, the catch there is that Sarevok already has a role to play. Two, in fact - first as the Wraith of Wrath in the Tears of Bhaal trials, and later as the Scion's loyal acolyte. There's not much to add with him.

    Skie, however, is not only the cause of the Scion's problems, but a victim of the Scion's heritage. She's one person the Scion was not able to save, yet still has the potential to be rescued, unlike so many others. Through her struggles to find herself and her purpose, Skie is right on the precipice of becoming a very interesting character, and her death and return in BG2 could easily be the push that makes that happen.

    And, honestly, now that I think about it, I don't know if you'd want to say outright whether she is Bhaalspawn or not. It may well be more effective if it's raised as a possibility, with the specter of it haunting the girl as she puts every ounce of her heart and soul into defining herself as something different. Maybe wait until deep into Throne of Bhaal before she gets a straight answer one way or another (and possibly have both options be viable depending on what path the conversations take). I mean, honestly: what could be more terrifying than not knowing for certain?

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016

    Fardragon said:

    Which animes and books use it? I'm not familiar with anime but I have read a heck of a lot of books and can't think of any other examples, apart from some versions of the Aurthurian myth.

    Skie coming back to life would be the trope "Back From the Dead" ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BackFromTheDead ). Included in that link are tons of examples of use of this trope. Some particular examples:

    Novels:
    Stephen King's Misery
    2 Neil Gaiman books
    Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series -- Those who serve the Dark One come back in a different form but never actually die
    A Song of Fire and Ice -- several instances
    Lord of the Rings -- When Gandalf comes back
    The Dragonlance novels -- 2 main characters die in 1 novel and then come back in other novels

    Anime:
    Sailor Moon -- Is a HUGE offender in this category, with the variation that the characters somehow don't die, despite the show leading the watcher to believe there's no way the heroes survive this time
    Neon Genesis Evangelion
    InuYasha
    Fullmetal Alchemist -- Has a twist on this trope as the main damn theme of the show, where the main characters spend most of the show trying to figure out how to bring their dead mother back and bad things happen every single time they try
    Naturo -- ...I'm not even touching this one; it's such a big offender
    Dragon Ball Z -- Need I say more?!
    Bleach

    No, it isn't. Characters coming back from the dead happens so frequently that it isn't a trope at all - its an everyday occurence. Whatever happens in BG3, characters coming back from the dead is inevitable. Entar Silvershield comes back from the dead in SoD and no one bats an eyelid - "oh, yeah, the cleric rezzed him".

    But the way Gandalf comes back from the dead is very different to the way that Snow White comes back from the dead - they are different tropes all together.

    What it actualy is is simple a fedex quest. Go fetch X in order to do Y. Except that in this case unexpected consequence Z would also happen, and that is what the main plot of BG3 would be based around.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Fardragon said:

    No, it isn't. Characters coming back from the dead happens so frequently that it isn't a trope at all - its an everyday occurence.

    Um, what?! Are you really trying to argue the semantics of "trope"?...
    Fardragon said:

    Whatever happens in BG3, characters coming back from the dead is inevitable. Entar Silvershield comes back from the dead in SoD and no one bats an eyelid - "oh, yeah, the cleric rezzed him".

    It was never declared that Entar was, for story purposes, irreversibly dead. People expect resurrections in D&D. What is not expected, nor should it be, is that a character who is stated to be irreversibly dead somehow comes back. Skie died for good, for the purposes of the story. That story decision should remain intact.
    Fardragon said:

    But the way Gandalf comes back from the dead is very different to the way that Snow White comes back from the dead - they are different tropes all together.

    No, they're actually not. They're 2 flavors of the same thing. But, as before...are you really arguing semantics?
    Fardragon said:

    What it actualy is is simple a fedex quest.

    And that's boring. I sincerely hope that the quest writers at Beamdog have better ideas in mind than resurrecting Skie via a Fedex quest. Ugh.

  • LegendaryLegendary Member Posts: 53
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Calemyr said:

    Virelai said:

    I apologize if this has been said above. Re: Skie appearing as the slayer during the endgame murder-hallucination, wasn't there a prior dream where Corwin changed into the slayer as well? So following the 'slayer dream appearance' argument, wouldn't that mean Corwin was also a Bhaalspawn?

    Edit: Spelling :/

    No. That was a dream. Completely in keeping with the dreams the Scion experiences in BG1 and BG2. Skie wasn't a dream, not exactly, as it had real life consequences and allowed your interaction with events beyond dialogue options.
    I think what he means is. Corwin's slayer was a dream, Skie's slayer form was clearly an illusion (as she is a human in the cutscene postgame that reveals what really happened). Essentially, they're alluding to what I said before. Skie doesn't have Bhaalspawn blood because she never really became the slayer. You were tricked in to believing that she had.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,679
    Leave Skie dead.
    Legendary said:

    Calemyr said:

    Virelai said:

    I apologize if this has been said above. Re: Skie appearing as the slayer during the endgame murder-hallucination, wasn't there a prior dream where Corwin changed into the slayer as well? So following the 'slayer dream appearance' argument, wouldn't that mean Corwin was also a Bhaalspawn?

    Edit: Spelling :/

    No. That was a dream. Completely in keeping with the dreams the Scion experiences in BG1 and BG2. Skie wasn't a dream, not exactly, as it had real life consequences and allowed your interaction with events beyond dialogue options.
    I think what he means is. Corwin's slayer was a dream, Skie's slayer form was clearly an illusion (as she is a human in the cutscene postgame that reveals what really happened). Essentially, they're alluding to what I said before. Skie doesn't have Bhaalspawn blood because she never really became the slayer. You were tricked in to believing that she had.
    I wasn't tricked. I didn't want to attack her but the room was locked and she kept attacking me even though I didn't fight back. I wasn't tricked, I had no choice.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    She should come back, be recruitable, and be a romance option. I want to call Eltan Silvershield "Dad" and watch his reaction.


    It was never declared that Entar was, for story purposes, irreversibly dead. People expect resurrections in D&D. What is not expected, nor should it be, is that a character who is stated to be irreversibly dead somehow comes back. Skie died for good, for the purposes of the story. That story decision should remain intact.

    I'm really having trouble understanding your definition of "story purposes". They clearly declared Skie dead...until certain circumstances were met (i.e., the dagger recovered). That's "irreversably dead" for the time being, and for the 5-10 minutes remaining in SOD at that point, but insofar as we treat all the games as one interconnected story, that really shouldn't mean dead "forever". The story decision is strictly endemic to SOD, and only needs to be intact for that long, no more.
    Legendary said:


    I think what he means is. Corwin's slayer was a dream, Skie's slayer form was clearly an illusion (as she is a human in the cutscene postgame that reveals what really happened). Essentially, they're alluding to what I said before. Skie doesn't have Bhaalspawn blood because she never really became the slayer. You were tricked in to believing that she had.

    I believe you're right that Skie's slayer form was an illusion, but that isn't proof that she isn't one. No other Bhaalspawn becomes a Slayer outside of your dreams (I have trouble counting Black Pits 2 as canon), so it seems like something that's unique to the Scion, even among Bhaalspawn.


    I wasn't tricked. I didn't want to attack her but the room was locked and she kept attacking me even though I didn't fight back. I wasn't tricked, I had no choice.

    Actually, if you avoid fighting back long enough, Skie will just die on her own. I tested by drinking an invisibility potion, and that happened after a couple minutes.

  • LoveViconiaLoveViconia Member Posts: 196
    A mission to find out what happened would be nice, this means CHARNAME could have been the murder, the end is vague and it doesn't really state he didn't do it. But in BG3, who would care anyway.

  • LegendaryLegendary Member Posts: 53
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!

    Legendary said:

    Calemyr said:

    Virelai said:

    I apologize if this has been said above. Re: Skie appearing as the slayer during the endgame murder-hallucination, wasn't there a prior dream where Corwin changed into the slayer as well? So following the 'slayer dream appearance' argument, wouldn't that mean Corwin was also a Bhaalspawn?

    Edit: Spelling :/

    No. That was a dream. Completely in keeping with the dreams the Scion experiences in BG1 and BG2. Skie wasn't a dream, not exactly, as it had real life consequences and allowed your interaction with events beyond dialogue options.
    I think what he means is. Corwin's slayer was a dream, Skie's slayer form was clearly an illusion (as she is a human in the cutscene postgame that reveals what really happened). Essentially, they're alluding to what I said before. Skie doesn't have Bhaalspawn blood because she never really became the slayer. You were tricked in to believing that she had.
    I wasn't tricked. I didn't want to attack her but the room was locked and she kept attacking me even though I didn't fight back. I wasn't tricked, I had no choice.
    You do have a choice

    If you don't fight back for long enough he says "Very well, all I require is your presence" and kills Skie in your place

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,920
    edited June 2016
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    Nothing has convinced me more that Skie should just be completely dumped and never even mentioned again than the trite and overly convoluted ideas for BG2, BG3, or why Skie would be yet another Bhaalspawn shared in this thread or elsewhere on this forum recently.

    KampfKaninchenshawneJustLeftsmeagolheart
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,769
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    I'd rather have an encounter with her dad, I highly doubt he'd just let Charname off the hook after that.
    Also, Irenicus or someone else would have hinted at it in some way if she was a Bhaalspawn, she was simply a pawn in this, wrong place at the wrong time. Not to forget that Sarevok would have probably found out in advance, given that they are both nobility in the same town.

    That actually opens up a bunch of interesting head canons about the two of them knowing each other ...

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!

    Not to forget that Sarevok would have probably found out in advance, given that they are both nobility in the same town.

    Sarevok was NOT nobility. He was applying to join the Dukes, & (through manipulation) his application was accepted, technically. Prior to the scene where he essentially took over and then ended up attacking CHARNAME and the other Dukes, Sarevok had no noble standing in Baldur's Gate.

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,769
    What kind of idiot would see that ending and think she's a Bhaalspawn?!?!
    He was the adoptive son of the leader of one - if not the - biggest companies in town. That's effectively nobility. Sure, he had no title, but he must have been involved in the higher class social circles.

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