I listed the weapons that you get relatively early in the game that I like to use a lot. All those +4/+5 are nice but access to them halfway into tob makes them useless to me.
@Iroumen that's untrue, you don't have to be half way into ToB you don't even have to be 2hrs into the game to have a few +4 weapons. You can get quite a few +4 and +5 straight after getting out of Chateau Irenicus. Look at my earlier post, everything there besides Gesens can be picked up after a quest or two.
Club of detonation is the quirk item i listed for which you need to go through wk so in that sense it does not really match the rest of my list. Should probably be harbringer then.
For the items on your list true you can get them early but i just think they are less interesting than the ones on my personal list so they are not on there. For instance i like spectral brand and hindo's doom but those are tob items.
I mainly get weapons for resist or effects. Thac0 and damage are not interesting to me.
Carsomyr (50% MR, dispel on hit and can cast dispel. Yes please! It offers the best defense against the game's most dangerous enemies while still hitting hard. Good to the end of ToB)
Flail of Ages (elemental damage and slow effect. Hits through stoneskin and can cripple enemy fighters. Good to the end of ToB)
Defender of Easthaven (+1 AC. 20% DR. And a +3 weapon. It would be a wonderful shield, but as a weapon it does damage as well. Combine with hardiness for a true tank)
Staff of the Maji (Instant invisibility? It saves mages like no other. The plethora of abilities is icing on the cake)
Belm (+1 APR never goes out of style)
Crom Faeyr (25 strength. It also instant kills trolls and golems, two very annoying enemies)
1. FoA (+3 and 4 versions): You get it very early and it is a true game changer, slow is underrated. 2. Celestial Fury: Available sort of early even on a no-reload, best proc in the game, can backstab! 3. Carsomyr: Early, absurdly powerful, only drawback is it forces you to play paladin or bring Keldorn (until HLAs that is). 4. Boomerang dagger: Available straight out of chateu Irenicus. Solid base damage, str bonus to ranged damage, gives +1 APR both to ranged and melee for some reason. Makes a huge differance for the early game. Strong upgrade available in the underdark. 5. Belm: Earliest of the +1 APR weapons. All of them are very powerful for pretty much the entire game but especially from between when you get improved haste until you get GWW. 6. Crom Faeyr: Very late but VERY powerful, especially for MH usage with +1 APR OH. Also saves you the hassle of potions or buffing and/or opens up your belt slot.
Sadly all NPCs (save Keldorn) come with subpar weapon pips. When planning for mid to late game Everything with fighter/paladin/ranger levels can be made to wield anything. You pick your NPCs and plan accordingly.
Honorable mentions: Defender of Easthaven: Ok early game, unless you play a dwarven defender when it is very good. Late game it shines when you stack damage resistance. Improved Mace of Disruption: Turns some pretty challenging fights into cakewalks. Then you install SCS and die to con drain.. Azuredge: See above. Lilarcor: The immunities will save your life, might be the only weapon I've never sold. Tuigan: early and powerful. Gesen: late and powerful. Daystar: The double damage vs undead does funny things to demi-liches..
Not mentioned: Staff of the Magi: In my SCS version the game breaking invis on equip is removed, without SCS it's just stupidly overpowered. Foebane +5, Ravager, Axe of unyielding +5 and every other weapon you get to use for the last 2-5% of the game, what's the Point?
I think you could argue that all in all, FoA+3 is the single "best" weapon in BG2. If, that is, you understand "best" as a combination of many factors, including how early it's available. FoA+3 has the best damage type (blunt), it has elemental damage (multiples even, to avoid specific immunities), it is 1h so you can increase its APR, it has a useful secondary effect (Slow is very good), and it even has growth potential (+4/+5 later on).
1. FoA (+3 and 4 versions): You get it very early and it is a true game changer, slow is underrated. 2. Celestial Fury: Available sort of early even on a no-reload, best proc in the game, can backstab! 3. Carsomyr: Early, absurdly powerful, only drawback is it forces you to play paladin or bring Keldorn (until HLAs that is). 4. Boomerang dagger: Available straight out of chateu Irenicus. Solid base damage, str bonus to ranged damage, gives +1 APR both to ranged and melee for some reason. Makes a huge differance for the early game. Strong upgrade available in the underdark. 5. Belm: Earliest of the +1 APR weapons. All of them are very powerful for pretty much the entire game but especially from between when you get improved haste until you get GWW. 6. Crom Faeyr: Very late but VERY powerful, especially for MH usage with +1 APR OH. Also saves you the hassle of potions or buffing and/or opens up your belt slot.
Sadly all NPCs (save Keldorn) come with subpar weapon pips. When planning for mid to late game Everything with fighter/paladin/ranger levels can be made to wield anything. You pick your NPCs and plan accordingly.
Honorable mentions: Defender of Easthaven: Ok early game, unless you play a dwarven defender when it is very good. Late game it shines when you stack damage resistance. Improved Mace of Disruption: Turns some pretty challenging fights into cakewalks. Then you install SCS and die to con drain.. Azuredge: See above. Lilarcor: The immunities will save your life, might be the only weapon I've never sold. Tuigan: early and powerful. Gesen: late and powerful. Daystar: The double damage vs undead does funny things to demi-liches..
Not mentioned: Staff of the Magi: In my SCS version the game breaking invis on equip is removed, without SCS it's just stupidly overpowered. Foebane +5, Ravager, Axe of unyielding +5 and every other weapon you get to use for the last 2-5% of the game, what's the Point?
I think you could argue that all in all, FoA+3 is the single "best" weapon in BG2. If, that is, you understand "best" as a combination of many factors, including how early it's available. FoA+3 has the best damage type (blunt), it has elemental damage (multiples even, to avoid specific immunities), it is 1h so you can increase its APR, it has a useful secondary effect (Slow is very good), and it even has growth potential (+4/+5 later on).
I have to agree with this. Here's how I look at the "best" weapon.
(1) Who can use it?
- If only 1-2 classes can use it, I wouldn't call it the 'best.' This cuts out wonderful weapons such as Carsomyr, the Scarlet Ninja-to and the Staff of the Maji. FoA can be used by a multitude of classes.
(2) Can it hurt mages?
- Mages are some of the most dangerous enemies in the game. To be the 'best' weapon, it has to be able to hurt them. FoA is great at this because it does so many different kinds of elemental damage. Even 1 point of damage disrupts a spell, and that is all you need to buy you time to smash through his defenses.
(3) Can it scale?
- FoA starts out at +3, and gets up to +4 (or +5 if you want to live with free action). That means that it is always useful to have around.
(4) Can you get it early?
- FoA comes after one quest which is easily doable from the start of SoA. Unlike other power houses such as Celestial Fury (a very hard fight), Daystar (a liche) or Staff of the Maji (the twisted rune, if it is even in the running), FoA can pretty much just be picked up.
(5) Does it have a proc?
- Many weapons hit hard. Many weapons have elemental damages. So to be the 'best' it has to stand out somehow. And FoA slows the enemy. Which frankly, is amazing. Slow an enemy fighter and he is pretty much out of the picture.
(6) Is it one handed?
- The 'best' doesn't happen in a vacuum. Weapons like Dragon's Breath are great and all...but FoA can be combined with Belm (+1 APR), Defender of Easthaven (+1 AC and 20% Damage Resistance) or Crom Faeyr (25 Str). This greatly enhances it's usability over two handed weapons.
(7) Is it always useful?
- Some great weapons are only good against certain enemies. Daystar for example is only good against the undead. To be the 'best' it has to be a weapon that you equip once and never unequip. FoA has that going for it.
Put together, it is a weapon you can pick up straight away and never have to replace. It just keeps getting better at what it does, it can be combined with other weapons, and many classes can use it. I agree, it's the best.
FoA is indeed very good and often deemed as THE best weapon in the game because it combines all the factors @Grum and @Lord_Tansheron mentioned. And indeed you can have it rather easily from the beginning of chapter 2 and it'll be very good till the end of ToB.
But then again, one can wonder whether this point is that valuable overall. I mean, yes, for example, Gram the Sword of Grief is available very late. But you can find other very good 2h swords that will do the job till you get it. The weapon in itself might not be that useful in the end because of this, but in my opinion, the more valuable piece of information is: How well does this or that weapon type fare? Flails are an exception because pretty much all flails (except DoE, but it's often used as an offhand) pale in comparison to FoA, which you can get very early on top of that. But taking other examples: Dagger is a shitty weapon type because all daggers suck compared to other melee weapons (except Firetooth and Boomy dagger but these are niche daggers) Same goes for short swords: nothing of interest besides Kundane.
But I'd argue that clubs are good as well: You may easily get Gnasher and Blackblood even early game and both are excellent and will remain so through most of SoA, and if you went deep enough in WK, you may get the great Club of Detonation+5 as soon as ToB starts
Scimitar/Wakizashi/Ninja-to proficiency is excellent as well, with Belm being available very early, Usuno's blade as well, and spectral brand being a top tier lategame weapon.
I think daggers and short swords are very interesting early game and there are many unique ones. Great for HaerDalis and Mazzy but also thieves druids and warriors.
I agree with @Grum 's post above; FoA is the best weapons. I was gonna argue a bit for Belm, based on roughly the same idea as Grum's; Who can weild it, what does it do, who can it hit etc.
Belm can be weilded by almost every class. (clerics). It will greatly increase the damage output of those weilding it. It is available very early.
It has it's drawbacks of course, but it is often used for a very long time for non-warrior class characters, or passed down to a NPC.
FoA is the best, but Belm deserves an "honorable mention"; its the miss congeniality of the beauty pagent.
@Arunsun for your exact reasons I would rank daggers as a top tier weapon. Boomerang dagger and it's upgrade are the strongest ranged weapons in the game for enemies they can hurt imho (str bonus and +1 APR).
For me the choice is, as my list states, between FoA and Celestial Fury. Depending on a lot of factors. My answer will be dependant on the party I am running. CF proc might have a save, but with a decent THAC0 and APR you will stun most enemies reliably enough.
@Arunsun for your exact reasons I would rank daggers as a top tier weapon. Boomerang dagger and it's upgrade are the strongest ranged weapons in the game for enemies they can hurt imho (str bonus and +1 APR).
For me the choice is, as my list states, between FoA and Celestial Fury. Depending on a lot of factors. My answer will be dependant on the party I am running. CF proc might have a save, but with a decent THAC0 and APR you will stun most enemies reliably enough.
These daggers are really good but they are the only reason you'd pick dagger proficiency and there is no +4 ranged dagger, which makes them niche weapon as I already say: you pick dagger proficiency for two weapons when the overwhelming majority of daggers are melee (and shitty, as well). Compare this to long sword proficiency, or flail proficiency, all of these have a wide range of weapons that can cover every situation and do very good in all of these.
It is a fair comment to suggest flails are better than daggers if all you are considering is BG2 (this forum) but if you are looking at a character coming through the trilogy, magic daggers are easy to come by in BG1, some of the easier +2 weapons to get, and have a couple of nice high-end versions to choose from. It would not be unreasonable for an imported character to have a strong dagger proficiency, especially if a F/T or F->T dual.
Picking early weapon proficiencies for BG1 based on the desired weapons for BG2 is a little like planning that dual-class character who duals after getting a HLA or two - only without the part where the first class actually works before dualing
Of course, if you are creating new characters directly in BG2, then there are no concerns about playing through the early levels, and the proficiencies can be more optimally spread around.
It is a fair comment to suggest flails are better than daggers if all you are considering is BG2 (this forum) but if you are looking at a character coming through the trilogy, magic daggers are easy to come by in BG1, some of the easier +2 weapons to get, and have a couple of nice high-end versions to choose from. It would not be unreasonable for an imported character to have a strong dagger proficiency, especially if a F/T or F->T dual.
One thing that I'll point out on this specific example: As far as I know there are no +3 daggers in either BG1 or SOD. The final boss of SOD requires a +3 weapon to hit. I encountered this issue on a solo run on a character with dagger mastery. It wasn't fun.
If you are going to judge a weapon class across the entire series, you need to factor in that boss fight.
Pondering on how to judge weapon class accross the entire series. You basically want: A good weapon available early in BG1. A +3 available by the end of SOD. A +3 available available early in BG2. A competitive TOB endgame weapon.
Bonus points for good offwields, utility, defensive abilities, ranged & melee under one proficiency, multiple damage types under one proficiency, etc.
Depends on class, or rather, on available proficiency points. You can usually afford to spend some for early parts (BG1/SoD) and then switch later on (BG2/SoA) even with Fighters. If you're not a Fighter (or Archer) it's pretty trivial anyway because you can max out many types.
I mostly agree with your comments, perhaps I should I specified a timeframe somehow because in a RPG "best" is often relative to "when?" - does it only count what you are at the end of the game? - at the middle of the game? - on the most part of the game?
For exemple, Axe of the Unyielding is wonderful, but being found during chapter 8 makes it only useable for what? 4 dungeons? For most players, the major part of the content probably happen during chapter 6, when they have rescued Imoen, and are free to hunt all the side quest before returning to the topic of Irenicus
I must admit however than when I opened this thread, I had the end game in head.
The question was more: can I end with a party with each of the 6 member wear and perfectly use one of the best weapon of the game? This make availability and class restriction a moot point in this context.
Perhaps then you should consider which characters could specialize in different types of weapons such that your characters transition naturally to the endgame weapons. Like is there a good axe used midgame that would be dropped in favor of the axe of the unyielding, or which long sword would you use before you got angurvadal.
Comments
For the items on your list true you can get them early but i just think they are less interesting than the ones on my personal list so they are not on there. For instance i like spectral brand and hindo's doom but those are tob items.
I mainly get weapons for resist or effects. Thac0 and damage are not interesting to me.
Flail of Ages (elemental damage and slow effect. Hits through stoneskin and can cripple enemy fighters. Good to the end of ToB)
Defender of Easthaven (+1 AC. 20% DR. And a +3 weapon. It would be a wonderful shield, but as a weapon it does damage as well. Combine with hardiness for a true tank)
Staff of the Maji (Instant invisibility? It saves mages like no other. The plethora of abilities is icing on the cake)
Belm (+1 APR never goes out of style)
Crom Faeyr (25 strength. It also instant kills trolls and golems, two very annoying enemies)
1. FoA (+3 and 4 versions): You get it very early and it is a true game changer, slow is underrated.
2. Celestial Fury: Available sort of early even on a no-reload, best proc in the game, can backstab!
3. Carsomyr: Early, absurdly powerful, only drawback is it forces you to play paladin or bring Keldorn (until HLAs that is).
4. Boomerang dagger: Available straight out of chateu Irenicus. Solid base damage, str bonus to ranged damage, gives +1 APR both to ranged and melee for some reason. Makes a huge differance for the early game. Strong upgrade available in the underdark.
5. Belm: Earliest of the +1 APR weapons. All of them are very powerful for pretty much the entire game but especially from between when you get improved haste until you get GWW.
6. Crom Faeyr: Very late but VERY powerful, especially for MH usage with +1 APR OH. Also saves you the hassle of potions or buffing and/or opens up your belt slot.
Sadly all NPCs (save Keldorn) come with subpar weapon pips. When planning for mid to late game Everything with fighter/paladin/ranger levels can be made to wield anything. You pick your NPCs and plan accordingly.
Honorable mentions:
Defender of Easthaven: Ok early game, unless you play a dwarven defender when it is very good. Late game it shines when you stack damage resistance.
Improved Mace of Disruption: Turns some pretty challenging fights into cakewalks. Then you install SCS and die to con drain..
Azuredge: See above.
Lilarcor: The immunities will save your life, might be the only weapon I've never sold.
Tuigan: early and powerful.
Gesen: late and powerful.
Daystar: The double damage vs undead does funny things to demi-liches..
Not mentioned:
Staff of the Magi: In my SCS version the game breaking invis on equip is removed, without SCS it's just stupidly overpowered.
Foebane +5, Ravager, Axe of unyielding +5 and every other weapon you get to use for the last 2-5% of the game, what's the Point?
So basically sort of what @Grum said.
(1) Who can use it?
- If only 1-2 classes can use it, I wouldn't call it the 'best.' This cuts out wonderful weapons such as Carsomyr, the Scarlet Ninja-to and the Staff of the Maji. FoA can be used by a multitude of classes.
(2) Can it hurt mages?
- Mages are some of the most dangerous enemies in the game. To be the 'best' weapon, it has to be able to hurt them. FoA is great at this because it does so many different kinds of elemental damage. Even 1 point of damage disrupts a spell, and that is all you need to buy you time to smash through his defenses.
(3) Can it scale?
- FoA starts out at +3, and gets up to +4 (or +5 if you want to live with free action). That means that it is always useful to have around.
(4) Can you get it early?
- FoA comes after one quest which is easily doable from the start of SoA. Unlike other power houses such as Celestial Fury (a very hard fight), Daystar (a liche) or Staff of the Maji (the twisted rune, if it is even in the running), FoA can pretty much just be picked up.
(5) Does it have a proc?
- Many weapons hit hard. Many weapons have elemental damages. So to be the 'best' it has to stand out somehow. And FoA slows the enemy. Which frankly, is amazing. Slow an enemy fighter and he is pretty much out of the picture.
(6) Is it one handed?
- The 'best' doesn't happen in a vacuum. Weapons like Dragon's Breath are great and all...but FoA can be combined with Belm (+1 APR), Defender of Easthaven (+1 AC and 20% Damage Resistance) or Crom Faeyr (25 Str). This greatly enhances it's usability over two handed weapons.
(7) Is it always useful?
- Some great weapons are only good against certain enemies. Daystar for example is only good against the undead. To be the 'best' it has to be a weapon that you equip once and never unequip. FoA has that going for it.
Put together, it is a weapon you can pick up straight away and never have to replace. It just keeps getting better at what it does, it can be combined with other weapons, and many classes can use it. I agree, it's the best.
But then again, one can wonder whether this point is that valuable overall. I mean, yes, for example, Gram the Sword of Grief is available very late. But you can find other very good 2h swords that will do the job till you get it. The weapon in itself might not be that useful in the end because of this, but in my opinion, the more valuable piece of information is:
How well does this or that weapon type fare?
Flails are an exception because pretty much all flails (except DoE, but it's often used as an offhand) pale in comparison to FoA, which you can get very early on top of that.
But taking other examples:
Dagger is a shitty weapon type because all daggers suck compared to other melee weapons (except Firetooth and Boomy dagger but these are niche daggers)
Same goes for short swords: nothing of interest besides Kundane.
But I'd argue that clubs are good as well:
You may easily get Gnasher and Blackblood even early game and both are excellent and will remain so through most of SoA, and if you went deep enough in WK, you may get the great Club of Detonation+5 as soon as ToB starts
Scimitar/Wakizashi/Ninja-to proficiency is excellent as well, with Belm being available very early, Usuno's blade as well, and spectral brand being a top tier lategame weapon.
Belm can be weilded by almost every class. (clerics).
It will greatly increase the damage output of those weilding it.
It is available very early.
It has it's drawbacks of course, but it is often used for a very long time for non-warrior class characters, or passed down to a NPC.
FoA is the best, but Belm deserves an "honorable mention"; its the miss congeniality of the beauty pagent.
For me the choice is, as my list states, between FoA and Celestial Fury. Depending on a lot of factors. My answer will be dependant on the party I am running. CF proc might have a save, but with a decent THAC0 and APR you will stun most enemies reliably enough.
Picking early weapon proficiencies for BG1 based on the desired weapons for BG2 is a little like planning that dual-class character who duals after getting a HLA or two - only without the part where the first class actually works before dualing
Of course, if you are creating new characters directly in BG2, then there are no concerns about playing through the early levels, and the proficiencies can be more optimally spread around.
If you are going to judge a weapon class across the entire series, you need to factor in that boss fight.
A good weapon available early in BG1.
A +3 available by the end of SOD.
A +3 available available early in BG2.
A competitive TOB endgame weapon.
Bonus points for good offwields, utility, defensive abilities, ranged & melee under one proficiency, multiple damage types under one proficiency, etc.
I mostly agree with your comments, perhaps I should I specified a timeframe somehow because in a RPG "best" is often relative to "when?"
- does it only count what you are at the end of the game?
- at the middle of the game?
- on the most part of the game?
For exemple, Axe of the Unyielding is wonderful, but being found during chapter 8 makes it only useable for what?
4 dungeons?
For most players, the major part of the content probably happen during chapter 6, when they have rescued Imoen, and are free to hunt all the side quest before returning to the topic of Irenicus
I must admit however than when I opened this thread, I had the end game in head.
The question was more: can I end with a party with each of the 6 member wear and perfectly use one of the best weapon of the game?
This make availability and class restriction a moot point in this context.