Baldur's Gate as Star Wars
BelgarathMTH
Member Posts: 5,653
Hi, friends, probably my most personally influential mythos ever is George Lucas' Star Wars universe. To me, his is the broadest, most universal, encompassing system of story and gaming archetypes ever created.
So, very often, I attempt to become a "Jedi Knight" in almost any game I play.
I am interested in starting a discussion about what people think are the most Star Wars-like character classes and other choices.
As most who are cross Star Wars-D&D geeks, I always imagine myself as a Jedi.
I'll get the discussion started by saying that I think that the druid class is the closest to Jedi. The reverence for "nature" seems very analogous to reverence for "the Force". A lot of the spells, like Flame Blade, resemble the preference for lightsaber as a weapon. The druid's ability to call upon all life in the environment, as well as upon wood, metal, fire, and stone to suit her ends, also strikes me as very Jedi-like.
You could argue that the neutral alignment is a problem, as the SW universe sees the Jedi as peacekeepers and enforcers of law and order. Which would make them lawful good paladins, clerics, and fighter-mages. (Or lawful evil for Sith). However, if you study closely their decisions and actions in the movies and books, they are rather opportunistic and even ruthless in seeking their goals, which moves them toward lawful neutral, and maybe even finally toward true neutrality (harmony in the universe is more important than ANYTHING else, i.e. balance between the good and dark sides of the Force).
I guess it's a no-brainer that Han Solo and his ilk are rogues, and that Princess Leia, Queen Amidala, and their like are paladins or clerics.
Anyone care to join in and argue a class, alignment, or npc as the perfect Star Wars character analogue?
So, very often, I attempt to become a "Jedi Knight" in almost any game I play.
I am interested in starting a discussion about what people think are the most Star Wars-like character classes and other choices.
As most who are cross Star Wars-D&D geeks, I always imagine myself as a Jedi.
I'll get the discussion started by saying that I think that the druid class is the closest to Jedi. The reverence for "nature" seems very analogous to reverence for "the Force". A lot of the spells, like Flame Blade, resemble the preference for lightsaber as a weapon. The druid's ability to call upon all life in the environment, as well as upon wood, metal, fire, and stone to suit her ends, also strikes me as very Jedi-like.
You could argue that the neutral alignment is a problem, as the SW universe sees the Jedi as peacekeepers and enforcers of law and order. Which would make them lawful good paladins, clerics, and fighter-mages. (Or lawful evil for Sith). However, if you study closely their decisions and actions in the movies and books, they are rather opportunistic and even ruthless in seeking their goals, which moves them toward lawful neutral, and maybe even finally toward true neutrality (harmony in the universe is more important than ANYTHING else, i.e. balance between the good and dark sides of the Force).
I guess it's a no-brainer that Han Solo and his ilk are rogues, and that Princess Leia, Queen Amidala, and their like are paladins or clerics.
Anyone care to join in and argue a class, alignment, or npc as the perfect Star Wars character analogue?
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Then, his fraternal twin son and daughter, Luke Skywalker and the hidden, adopted Princess Leia Organa, take over the destiny to "restore balance". Luke fulfils his destiny of balance by redeeming his fallen Father to the goodside.
Every action by every other character in all six movies, especially the two wise mentor characters Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, are motivated by restoring balance to the corrupted Force. There is a parallel running theme of "destiny vs. free choice."
EDIT: btw, KOTOR is set 1,000 years before the movies. The Jedi order throughout all the games, books, and movies is assumed to be a most ancient order with thousands of years of history. There will of course be significant alignment and philosophy drift over such huge time spans.
And when you are a threatened minority fighting for your survival, all is well and good to go preaching about restoring a balance between your minority and the majority opposing you. Of course you reach that by annihilating your opponents, and balance is served
I like the roles of thieves, bounty hunters, or smugglers better, they have so much freedom in either RP setups or gameplay.
@Koson, interesting ideas. You really should watch those second three movies, since they can be gotten very cheaply through Netflix or a similar service.
The "ideological dispute" between the Jedi and the Sith actually does have to do with "balance". The Jedi believe that balance is achieved by dispassionate detachment from passionate emotion, much like Buddhism. The Sith believe that balance is acheieved by embracing passion and wielding personal Will to control the chaotic universe, much like Nietzscheism.
The one thing they have in common is the desire to overcome chaos. I don't think anyone would argue that either a Jedi or a Sith would have "chaotic" in his or her alignment description. But neither are either of them particularly concerned with "good". The Jedi believe that "good" will come from balance, while the Sith don't care one way or the other. For both of them, we are down to neutral, lawful neutral, or lawful evil, or, in a very few extreme cases like Luke Skywalker, neutral good. For all Jedi, "neutral" has to be in there somewhere, just as with the D&D druids.
If you are given your point of view as far as alignment, and that you don't think they can be druids, then, what class do you think they are?
They seem to me to have far too much magic at their disposal to be paladins, unless maybe we divide them into the KOTOR consulars, sentinels, and guardians.
Then, I guess that the consulars would be clerics or fighter/mages, the sentinels would be mage/rogues, and the guardians would be either fighter/mages or fighter/clerics. Which would be which, in your opinion, and why?
I've found that I can roleplay a "Jedi Knight" if I want to in almost any swords and sorcery game. Great fun!
I personally don't like rigid-code goody-two-shoes characters, so I try to stay away from paladin / knight types, but if you enjoy playing them, go for it.
I personally don't like undisciplined, selfish, greedy, evil-hatemonger characters, so I try to stay away from blackguard/Sith types, but if you enjoy playing them, go for it.
This depends on how you look at it. At the time of Anakin - the light side of the force was far superior than the dark side. So him bringing down the Jedis is actually bringing balance to the force - so he IS fulfilling his destiny - it was just wrongly interpreted. He is never meant to be the saviour.
I don't defend or justify the Sith, is just that I found it more fun / rewarding to play as a free-willed light-sided Sith Sorcerer than as a righteous Jedi Guardian.
@Winnick, that's certainly one way to look at it. I was going by Qui-Gonn's and Obi-Wan's expressed point of view. The Jedi are far from infallible in their interpretations of the Force. But they tend to think they are, and they can come across as kind of fanatical, which is probably why @Koson doesn't like them.
I like to play that I am a lot like Luke Skywalker, and work for reform from within, without going all-out darkside. That prohibition against using attack magic sure is inconvenient. I/my characters really have to struggle with that one. Sometimes, you just really need lightning bolts and fireballs.
I always used to make a game of getting that slider up far into the blue and becoming a "Force-saint", so I didn't pay much attention to any lore aimed at neutrals. I remember the dialogue choices usually being pretty clear-cut between saintly and totally cruel, as in "Of course I'll find food for you and your child, you poor woman!" or "You are weak. You and your child deserve to die."
I think I need to play KOTOR again one day soon.
Found it. They were called Gray Jedis and were never organized. They were proof that both Sith and Jedi training were the causes of radical views and are thought extinct
Fact is all Star Wars games I've played or read about you were encouraged / pointed to go either full dark or full light, even if rewards were sometimes minor / just cosmetic. There was never an incentive to be / stay neutral, which is a bit odd. Not everybody wants to be / is cut out for being a saint or a villain.
Yes, I don't recall ever playing a game where being neutral was something you could strive for and be awarded. It was always the journey towards the two extremes that triggered progress
A similar theme can be seen in Star Trek with the Mr. Spock/Dr. McCoy dichotomy of logic/passion, where the captain is supposed to balance that tension. Interestingly, Kirk does it by being understanding of Spock yet just as passionate as McCoy, while Picard balances the equivalent between Riker and Data, (or maybe Worf and Data), by leaning toward logic and dispassion. And there is yet another equivalency in the Odo/Quark dichotomy on Deep Space Nine, again to be balanced by the longsuffering Captain Sisko, who must also seek balance between Bajoran religious politics and Federation practical/democratic/military politics.
(Deep Space Nine was very prescient about this theme - our current political leaders of the free world are struggling to balance our way of life and point of view peacefully with the peoples of the middle east who have developed powerful, religion-based societies, who are much more passionate, reactive, and, unfortunately, prone to violence and war, than we are.)
The Jedi and Sith seem neither understanding nor sympathetic toward *anything* about each other. They are extremes of archetypes. In the movies, Luke Skywalker was the balancing point of view, as he always exercised understanding and compassion towards people who had invested themselves into either "side of the coin." So, perhaps, in the movies, Luke would be our paragon of "neutrality/balance", tempered with a heavy sense of compassion and love.
Which ties back into my original point that I think that the D&D druids would be the perfect Jedi. They would still have their own internal dichotomy between circle druid/shadow druid, but they would all deplore the fanaticism of the Sacred Heart, and just as much the fanaticism of the Iron Throne, seeing both entities as threats who seek to exploit nature and destroy balance and harmony in the world, thus bringing horrible, unecessary suffering into the world.
But about his actions with decimating the Jedi Order? That is part of the "balancing" as well. Not because it makes the Jedi fewer and thus more numerically balanced, but because the Jedi Order is, at that point perhaps not corrupt, but definitely bloated. It is a fundamentalistic institution strictly adhering to a dogma without thought, and by acting a certain way because it is dogma rather fun because you have thought it over deprives the Jedi ideology of the wisdom and reflection that is supposed to run through it.
So, Anakin causes the fall of the bloated Jedi Order and ends it's decadence. Vader then causes the demise of the Sith by killing the Emperor and himself. What does this leave? A young, idealistic Jedi, who believes in the Jedi way as it is supposed to be, who can recreate a new society of Jedi who is truer in spirit than the old Order was. It is an eradication of the Old Bloat and a rebirth of new, fresh thought. Purification through fire, the phoenix from the ashes, etc etc.
Xan is Threepio, class be damned. I really don't think I need to explain this one.
@LordsDarkKnight185, I've heard one or two people before draw a connection between Jedi and the monk class, because of the similar philosophies. I think that the analogy breaks down a bit, though, because, what's a Jedi without his lightsaber, where monks use primarily unarmed fighting, and also, Jedi force powers seem pretty magical, (healing, telekinesis, telepathy, lightning), whereas the monk's Chi powers are more subtle and tied into hand to hand fighting.) Maybe 3rd edition monks with their kamas would be a little closer.
Paladin/cleric/mage combos seem like better analogues, in my opinion.
http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0004.html
EDIT: I'm curious - how do the webcomics get away with using the movie images, both this one with Star Wars and also DM of the Ring with LotR, without triggering legal issues? Do you know any links with info about "the making of"?