i agree, i had created a kensai and equipped him with celestial fury, there was nothing i couldn't hit. i felt way too powerful with that weapon. not that it wasn't fun of course
As cheesy as that weapon is (and oh my, it is) earning it on a solo bard run is awesomely hard. Finally killing the guy wielding it and then using it on his compatriots. I had to kite the wielder all over the place, if he got in melee range I'd be stunned and dead in no time.
Sounds like you're the perfect candidate for the item revisions mod. Oddly its the fact that merchants sell a more logical selection of items that I like the most about it rather than the rebalancing of items .... and the robes, the robes are great
It's an easy to read compiled list of each and every item within BG games, and you might discover Item Revisions offer you a valid alternative to simply avoiding all those overpowered items. I'd like to hear your opinion (or other players here) on what I did.
@sandmanCCL you do have a point about Vorpal weapons being a sort of "win more" items. Actually what you says kinda inpired me to ponder again if it would not be better to have Vorpal effects take place more often (as vanilla's Silver Sword) but being easier to resist. On one hand it removes their epic feel, otoh the "kill a dragon with a renadom lucky vorpal hit" always bothered me. Mmm...
@Bugrat I do agree with you, certain items might not seem OP by themselves, but they are exploitable, such as Defender of Easthaven when used by a Barbarian, or Belm/Kundane used in the off-hand.
@James I'm glad you seem to really like what I did with robes. May I ask you what you think about my least favourite one? Does Adventure's Robe have any appeal?
@demivrgvs I thought the lure of this thread might be too much for you. I haven't really used adventurers robe but I have been toying with the idea oF a fighter Mage as more of front liner rather than archer in which case it might be handy. It will also give me a chance to try out some of the combat oriented spell revisions like true strike
@Demivrgvs Wow that's a lot of information, I will have to read it all carefully but it looks pretty good. I personally would have toned the items down a bit more, but the changes look pretty reasonable. I will bookmark this mod, it should make things very interesting for reruns since playing with a whole new set of items will surely make things feel very fresh. Hopefully you will release it for the enhanced editions too
During your deliberations, please remember what playing the game was like the first time through. Also consider some other factors.
If you're suggesting that people make an optional mod to change items, then I don't see any problems. Otherwise, if you're suggesting that the game proper be changed, try to understand about how little someone new to the game knows about game tactics and character optimization.
New people to the BG series make permanent mistakes: poor ability score assignment, bad weapon prof choices, poor planned dual classing, pick the wrong spells, wrong class for their playing type, etc. They also miss XP opportunities, miss items, forget to use powers, use poor combat strategies, blah blah. These people both deserve and need some great stuff to just get them through. This game is too awesome for them to get frustrated and give up.
It also feels great to pick up those awesome weapons the first time. Admit it: you remember the first time you picked up that one great item that seemed to be made for you! For me, being a paladin guy, it was Carosomyr. Great epic dragon battle. Great reward. So happy. *tear*
Further, we want the support the success of the EE series of BG. Nerfing some the iconic items is NOT a great selling point.
Certainly, I'm sure that toning items down is very appropriate for certain BG fanbase subcultures. I do not believe that it is appropriate for the BG culture as a whole. Thus, I suggest that development toward the end of this thread's intent be confined to the modding community.
@RomulanPaladin I'm not suggesting to auto-include Item Revisions "nerfs" into BGEE. Similarly, I would not vote to auto-include SCS AI into it (even if I can't play without it), though IR actually doesn't make the game so much harder. Btw, I'd like to point out that a "great epic weapon" doesn't necessarily need to be overpowered to feel like a "great epic weapon". I can assure you that vanilla's overpowered items (e.g. Carsomyr, Cloak of Mirroring, etc.) or cheesy ones (Staff of the Magi, Shield of Balduran, etc.) are still tremendously good within IR, they are simply less "over the top" or not exploitable to the same extent.
@Xanthul yes, IR will be updated for BGEE, but it might take some time. A new version for standard BG will be out anytime soon instead. Anyway, may I ask which items do you feel should be toned down more?
@James yeah, my doubt is that even for the type of character you're describing, there's no way I would pick Adventurer's Robe over Battlemage's one. Otoh, even if they are not as heavily enchanted as the "top tier" robes, Knave's Robe and Traveler's Robe are still extremely appealing even in the late stages of the game imo. Am I wrong?
@Avenger_teambg I always considered that a bug, wasn't it? I obviously got rid of it within IR, and I do hope BGEE will either do the same or at least limit it to x/day.
@demivrgvs certainly the protection from backstab on the knave robe is a godsend in the early stages of BG2 and the +2 movement bonus is always useful (mostly so Aerie can run around in little circles avoiding thieves)
I think the way to make all the robes useful is to think about when in the game you can get them, for a level 1 or 2 mage in BG1 Adventurers robe could be a lifesaver for avoiding bandits making a pin cushion out of you, (perhaps a small bonus against missiles?) so I would restrict the other robes until a little later which also has the added bonus of a nice progressive feeling for your mage. I don't think you should be able to buy the robe of Weave or Battlemage robe it makes the other robes unappealing.
Actually while you're here I have always wondered why the component in IR to reduce dexterity bonus with heavy armour expressed as a percentage? Surely a -1, 2 etc to dexterity is more obvious?
@James Traveler's Robe already offer anti-missile protection, I don't want two robes to share the same role if possible. Regarding archmage's robes being available too early, that's going to change. The whole items re-allocation and revised stores thing (which you seem to be particulary fond of) is limited to BG2 for now, as both I and Ardanis focused on it, but we're now working on BG1 too, and you can bet we'll make small changes here and there to achieve a more smooth equipment distribution both in stores and on opponents.
Regarding armor DEX penalty being % based, I'll try to be short because it's too much off-topic. In general it's the same as -1, -2 and -3 DEX respectively, but % value makes sure characters with very low DEX arent gimped by wearing heavy armor (e.g. Keldorn's suffer only -1 DEX in heavy armor instead of -3). Vice versa, it makes sure characters with godly DEX are more heavily penalized from using heavy armor instead of light. This better simulates PnP, where you DEX is capped by the heavy armor.
Comments
Everything else is used by me.
@Xanthul if you have some time to spare you could give a look here: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=15700
It's an easy to read compiled list of each and every item within BG games, and you might discover Item Revisions offer you a valid alternative to simply avoiding all those overpowered items. I'd like to hear your opinion (or other players here) on what I did.
@sandmanCCL you do have a point about Vorpal weapons being a sort of "win more" items. Actually what you says kinda inpired me to ponder again if it would not be better to have Vorpal effects take place more often (as vanilla's Silver Sword) but being easier to resist. On one hand it removes their epic feel, otoh the "kill a dragon with a renadom lucky vorpal hit" always bothered me. Mmm...
@Bugrat I do agree with you, certain items might not seem OP by themselves, but they are exploitable, such as Defender of Easthaven when used by a Barbarian, or Belm/Kundane used in the off-hand.
@James I'm glad you seem to really like what I did with robes. May I ask you what you think about my least favourite one? Does Adventure's Robe have any appeal?
If you're suggesting that people make an optional mod to change items, then I don't see any problems. Otherwise, if you're suggesting that the game proper be changed, try to understand about how little someone new to the game knows about game tactics and character optimization.
New people to the BG series make permanent mistakes: poor ability score assignment, bad weapon prof choices, poor planned dual classing, pick the wrong spells, wrong class for their playing type, etc. They also miss XP opportunities, miss items, forget to use powers, use poor combat strategies, blah blah. These people both deserve and need some great stuff to just get them through. This game is too awesome for them to get frustrated and give up.
It also feels great to pick up those awesome weapons the first time. Admit it: you remember the first time you picked up that one great item that seemed to be made for you! For me, being a paladin guy, it was Carosomyr. Great epic dragon battle. Great reward. So happy. *tear*
Further, we want the support the success of the EE series of BG. Nerfing some the iconic items is NOT a great selling point.
Certainly, I'm sure that toning items down is very appropriate for certain BG fanbase subcultures. I do not believe that it is appropriate for the BG culture as a whole. Thus, I suggest that development toward the end of this thread's intent be confined to the modding community.
@Xanthul yes, IR will be updated for BGEE, but it might take some time. A new version for standard BG will be out anytime soon instead.
@James yeah, my doubt is that even for the type of character you're describing, there's no way I would pick Adventurer's Robe over Battlemage's one. Otoh, even if they are not as heavily enchanted as the "top tier" robes, Knave's Robe and Traveler's Robe are still extremely appealing even in the late stages of the game imo. Am I wrong?
@Avenger_teambg I always considered that a bug, wasn't it? I obviously got rid of it within IR, and I do hope BGEE will either do the same or at least limit it to x/day.
I think the way to make all the robes useful is to think about when in the game you can get them, for a level 1 or 2 mage in BG1 Adventurers robe could be a lifesaver for avoiding bandits making a pin cushion out of you, (perhaps a small bonus against missiles?) so I would restrict the other robes until a little later which also has the added bonus of a nice progressive feeling for your mage. I don't think you should be able to buy the robe of Weave or Battlemage robe it makes the other robes unappealing.
Actually while you're here I have always wondered why the component in IR to reduce dexterity bonus with heavy armour expressed as a percentage? Surely a -1, 2 etc to dexterity is more obvious?
Regarding armor DEX penalty being % based, I'll try to be short because it's too much off-topic. In general it's the same as -1, -2 and -3 DEX respectively, but % value makes sure characters with very low DEX arent gimped by wearing heavy armor (e.g. Keldorn's suffer only -1 DEX in heavy armor instead of -3). Vice versa, it makes sure characters with godly DEX are more heavily penalized from using heavy armor instead of light. This better simulates PnP, where you DEX is capped by the heavy armor.