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YARAS (Yet Another Revised Armor System)

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
edited April 2017 in General Modding
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brusmf2112inethDjinnGrammarsaladIllustairelminsterJuliusBorisov
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Comments

  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 76
    If you're going that route, I greatly recommend that you read up on the real difference between plate mail, field plate and full plate armour.
    While you'd think full plate would limit your movement more than plate mail would. But in reality, full plate armour consisted of several adjustable, meshing plate strips with flexible, articulated joints. This meant that the entire weight of the armour was distributed evenly across the body of the wearer, allowing greater mobility than normal plate mail (and many other armour types even), which was a rigid construction of large metal plates that hung over the wearers shoulders - on top of a suit of chain mail (which also hung over the wearers shoulders), making it really heavy and difficult to wear.

    Quote from metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm:
    The notion that the development of plate armor (completed by about 1420–30) greatly impaired a wearer’s mobility is also untrue. A harness of plate armor was made up of individual elements for each limb. Each element in turn consisted of lames (strips of metal) and plates, linked by movable rivets and leather straps, and thus allowing practically all of the body’s movements without any impairment due to rigidity of material. The widely held view that a man in armor could hardly move, and, once he had fallen to the ground, was unable to rise again, is also without foundation. On the contrary, historical sources tell us of the famous French knight Jean de Maingre (ca. 1366–1421), known as Maréchal Boucicault, who, in full armor, was able to climb up the underside of a ladder using only his hands. Furthermore, there are several illustrations from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance depicting men-at-arms, squires, or knights, all in full armor, mounting horses without help or instruments such as ladders or cranes. Modern experiments with genuine fifteenth- and sixteenth-century armor as well as with accurate copies have shown that even an untrained man in a properly fitted armor can mount and dismount a horse, sit or lie on the ground, get up again, run, and generally move his limbs freely and without discomfort.

    SkatanIllustairmf2112
  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2016
    I'm probably a pain in the butt now, but considering what full plate armour was in reality, compared to the romanticized version of it that is usually portrayed, I'd give the full plate armour higher AC bonus and lower DEX penality than normal plate, but less DR % bonus.

    Otherwise I think your system looks pretty solid.

  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 76
    There's also the notion of different damage types having an easier or more difficult time penetrating different types of armour. This is already implemented in the normal 2nd edition armour system, with the different bonus/penalties against slashing, piercing and blunt damage.
    Will you implement something similar in your revised system as well?

    For instance, slashing and piercing damage should have a really hard time penetrating the different types of plate armour, but blunt damage not so much, as the many blunt weapons were designed to deliver pure blunt trauma to heavily armoured opponents, where blows would otherwise be deflected.

    I think it could make for some interesting strategy choices, and give players the option to use different armours and tactics against different foes, and be especially interesting in fights against tougher foes with more specialized weapons.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    edited June 2016
    "It's a PITA because the various types of armor are not well-differentiated in the .ITM files, but I think I can tease out enough information from the file structure that I won't have to rely on a big list of items, the way IR and FPPS do. That means if it works, it would work with all the games and all the mods."

    I have code somewhere that differentiates armors by type and assigns unique item types to them (e.g. 'armor'--> 'leather' for leather armors) which can then be checked much easier afterward. Let me know if you want it, and I'll dig it up.

    Edit: alternatively, I can just tell you how I did it if you prefer. I checked for specific strings in the unidentified name field. I chose the unidentified name field as it is generally shared by most armors of the same type (with variations that I don't recall atm). For example, a quick check shows that many leather armors use 2890 in IWDEE whereas studded leather uses 6664. (it's a bit of a tedious process, but the end result is worth it).

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    As an aside, I'd like to see some (optional?) penalty to ranged weapons for heavier armors as well as weapon speed penalties...

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
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    Djinn
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    Cool, cool. I'll dig it up. I think that the code is pre ee. I don't mind updating it as a break from spell grinding

  • inethineth Member Posts: 623
    edited June 2016
    For the most part, I love this proposed system.

    I'm especially glad that unlike the author of IR, you recognize movement speed penalties/bonuses as an annoyance, rather than something that adds meaningful challenge. (Btw, I love IR, but this is one of the things it gets wrong in my opinion.)

    I also approve of not relying on "chance of spell failure" as a penalty. While such a penalty would certainly seem fair, in practice it causes me (as a player) to just avoid wearing armor completely for mages. I think if spell failure caused a wild surge (like with Wild Mages), I'd be more open to it. But to simply have nothing happen for a significant percentage of spell casting attempts, well, I just can't bring myself to subject my mages to that.

    One thing slightly irks me about your proposal though:

    Elven Armor: +1 DEX, -2 casting time

    My Fighter/Mage kinda relies on being able to cast Mirror Image quickly... :(

    Elven Chain Mail is distinct in BG2 by being the only armor that allows spellcasting for mages.
    If you're making it so that every armor allows spellcasting, this distinction partially goes away of course, but it doesn't need to go away completely - Elven Chain could still remain the only armor that allows spellcasting without a casting speed penalty.

    Basically, in unmodded BG2 the Elven Chain Mails are the choice for melee mages. With your proposed system, they'd no longer be fit for that purpose (melee characters don't really need DEX as much), and would instead be a better fit for ranged characters, except that those are already better served by magical robes.

    GrammarsaladIllustairmf2112
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    Other proposals:

    Helmets get rid of critical protection, but grant a small bonus to...?

    Excepting certain special helms like the helmet of infravision, they could reduce vision range

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    Non magical bracers could allow one to 'parry' melee attacks giving a -1 bonus to ac vs non ranged attacks

  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 866
    @ineth It says minus casting, which means faster casting time. So it remains to be one of the better fighter/mage armors. I'm not sure if that's the proper advantage for that armor though.

    ineth
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
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    ineth
  • inethineth Member Posts: 623
    Ah, I see. In that case, carry on... :)

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
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  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,308
    How do you plan to mitigate for Dwarven Defender + Easthaven + Hardiness cheese?

  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    This is a great idea an promotes different build and playstyles.
    High Dex fighter with light armor.
    High Kon tank with very heavy armor.
    And F/M have more options too.

    Enchantment:
    +1: -1 AC +1 Dex +1% DR
    +2: -3 AC " +3% DR Why go from -1 AC to -3?
    +3: -4 AC " +4% DR
    +4: -5 AC " +5% DR
    +5: -6 AC " +6% DR
    +6: -7 AC " +7% DR

    Is there a specific reason I'm missing for a linear progression from -1, -2 -3 to -6?

    If I wait long enough, I get a complete EE overhaul mod from you subtledoctor ;)

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    ...I'm not finding that code. I had a computer that died a while ago. I didn't lose much, but I definitely lost some stuff. That might have been one of those things. Looks like I'll have to recreate it.

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
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  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    You're giving fighter/mages a boost by allowing them to wear armor and cast spells, but nerfing the low-level thieves by giving them a Dex penalty.

    A -1/-2 Dex penalty is significant for low level thieves in leather/studded leather (e.g., an 18 Dex thief wearing studded leather gets a -10% penalty on all thief skills except Detect Illusion and Find Traps). That's pretty significant at low levels. Until you find magical leather armor, thieves will need to go unarmored while using thief abilities (which can be quite deadly if attempting to backstab).

    Also, are you planning to add a "thief skills in heavy armor" component to this? Mixing YARAS and say Tweaks' Thief Skills in Heavy Armor would be pretty crippling - Dex penalties AND thief skill penalties.

    Grammarsalad
  • SteamcrusherSteamcrusher Member Posts: 4
    edited June 2016
    I was thinking about that overhaul some past days (you stole my idea!) and i think we need to go deeper.
    First. Yes, armor gives less AC, but offers physical resistance - that's good. But we need to nerf some other DR abilities as well, or we can simply go for easthaven+hardiness+some cool armor = 95% physical resistance.
    Hardiness HLA shoud give us 25% resistance, which would stack with armor resistance.
    Yes, armor will punish you with dex penalty. Starting with -1 at studded leather and up to -4 for plate mail and full plate mail.

    Also you need to know that if your armor is penetrated by spiked weapon it just stroke between the plates with very low resistance itself, but if its penetrated (?) by blunt weapon, some serious part of energy was eaten by the armor itself.

    So...
    1. Leather Armor - 5% slashing, 5% piercing, 5% blunt, 5% missle.
    2. Studded Leather - 10% slashing, 5% piercing, 10% blunt, 5% missle.
    3. Chain Mail - 20% slashing, 15% piercing, 15% blunt, 15% missle.
    4. Splint Mail - 15% slashing, 10% piercing, 15% blunt, 10% missle.
    5. Plate Mail - 25% slashing, 10% piercing, 15% blunt, 15% missle.
    6. Full Plate Mail - 30% slashing, 15% piercing, 20% blunt, 20% missle.

    Also we need to rebalance APR. Why whirlwind gives us whole 10 attacks? It makes useless IH, dualwielding and more. I think it should give us +3-4 attacks per round, when IH should give us +2 more. And so to get 10 attacks we need:
    7. Fighter's level bonus -> 2
    8. GM with weapon we're using -> 3
    9. Improved Haste -> 5
    10. Dual-wielding -> 6
    11. Belm, apr bracers, anything!
    12. And finally whirlwind.

    And if we're so resistant, we need to give more damage to our weapons. Two-handed will be 1D12, halberd 1D13, etc.
    Spiked weapons->bleeding if failed "save vs death"
    Blunt weapons->stun/slow for 1 round if failed "save vs breath"

    Someone has to make this mod!

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
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  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    One more question - would the casting time penalty apply to arcane casters only, or do divine casters get this penalty as well?

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
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  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    Well, take Command - it's an incredibly useful 1st level spell for disabling - no saving throw for enemies with <6 HD, casting time of 1. It's like magic missile for clerics at interrupting enemy spellcasters. Toss a casting time penalty of +4 on it, and it's usefulness is greatly reduced.

    Also, the penalties shouldn't apply anyway, since Command has no somatic component. :wink:

    mf2112
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
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  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,016
    The proposed neft to priest casting times is definitely one thing I wouldn't like about this mod (and probably would end up having to manually remove it just like movement penalties of other mods). I don't see a reason why push clerics out of heavy armors, it's their class advantage.

    mf2112AstroBryGuy
  • jobbyjobby Member Posts: 181
    Would it be possible to create a ui mod that displays additional information in the inventory screen Such as damage resistance by damage type and dex penalty?

  • inethineth Member Posts: 623
    Pecca said:

    I don't see a reason why push clerics out of heavy armors, it's their class advantage.

    For vanilla priests that's true, but suspect @subtledoctor might want this mod to mesh with Faith and Powers, which makes priests more caster focused.

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