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No reload is so old school !

MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
"No reload...", "No reload...", "No reload..." everywhere!

Ok, it's true that no reload playthrough are so far the hardest challenges of all the BG series, which makes them interesting, because so many things can just mess up during a run... but now that I have complete my first playthrough, and seeking a new one to do, I just think there is too much of them and I should seek to do... something else.

My question is simple: what kind of restriction could you like to see tested out in a playthrough?

So far, I thought about things like:
  • No rest (not even in safe zone, let's play a bunch of incomniacs!)
  • No spellcasting (kinda similar to the one before, except you can use non-magic abilities, but not scrolls)
  • No loot (stealing is bad, even stealing graves and corpses!)
  • No cheese (but what is truly 'cheese'...?)
  • No weapons (yay, let's play only monks and mages!)
"No companion" is too common too, and "No foreseeing" is the way any new player plays BG2

I'm interested to know what people could like to read, and other other ideas of "No..." they could have for a written playthrough

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Comments

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @Moonheart "Average Joe" only 63 point rolls which is the expected value for 18d6.

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Mmmm it does count, but it doesn't seems very challenging.

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Oh, there could be "no protagonist" too: you make a clone of one of the companion, and play it like a regular character.

  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    @moonheart, I see your strength as dissecting and optimizing strategies. I'd like to see you do something centered around building an unconventional strategy for one of the less popular classes/kits.

    JuliusBorisovrapsam2003
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited June 2016
    I'm afraid to not know what is "unpopular"... can you give me exemples?
    Except druids. I just don't like druids when they are not though blonde female half-elves ones.

    Post edited by Moonheart on
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @Moonheart Single class playthrough. A) only one class allowed, e.g. all bards or B) all chars must include a class, e.g. all part Thief. Obviously B is easier.

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @Moonheart Exactly, so do all wizard slayers

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited June 2016
    Nah, I would like to keep my games legit, and there is no Wizard Slayer among companions.

    The closest I can show you is a 100% MR party including no mage... Something like a Monk protagonist + Haer'Dalais + Viconia, how does it sound?

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @Moonheart Rolling a party in multiplayer is 100 % legit ;)

  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    @Moonheart, unpopular? I'm not sure. You have arcane casters pretty well covered. How about cleric/thief, a pretty good kit i hear but not one I've ever played with and probably less popular. I also never played barbarian.

    As for the strategies you develop, well i want to see what you develop. I'm less concerned with the challenge restrictions than that.

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Well in a normal D&D party, you have a warrior, a cleric, a thief and a mage. The game was created first with this schema in head, and that's why those are the only classes made for multiclassing

    Anyting that doesn't change from this schema will end with basic strategies you can read everywhere... and I do not think that barbarian or cleric/thief will make a difference here: cleric/thief is just putting two of the role on the same character, and barbarian is a pretty classic warrior class.

    To make some original strategies, I'll need to build the run around a class that have feature that is very unlike any other class, or put some restriction on the party so they cannot use the basic pattern

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    edited June 2016
    Maybe try a party of shamans then? Or some shamans, druids, and clerics for the Holy Roller party?

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Playing on Android, no shaman.

    meagloth
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Playing on Android, no mods.

  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    Tired of no reload try this: :p yes it is a block of text for you to read. :*


    Try playing with ad&d rules as written in the DM and players manual + be your own DM and player at the same time. That means spells that have been over powered you can't use or only use to the point that is allowed in the manual (ie skull trap should have been capped), similarly with items that don't match the manual so that means no using the Staff of the Magi or any cheesy items - as the items descriptions are different from the manual.

    NO specialty kit dual classes allowed that means no berserker, wizard slayer, kensai or specialty thief, mage or cleric etc duals. Actually unless you have the mod that fixes the berserker class you can't play a berserker or at least you can't use his rage as it is over powered.

    IF you dual you must dual by level 7 or you CANNOT dual at all - after level 7 you are a specialist in your field and who would opt out of their profession and take up something new - no one would do this so your class is NOT allowed to do this after level 7.

    When dualing you are NOT allowed to put any points at any time into your original weapon proficiency.

    As you are both DM and player - that means no cheese tactics allowed as a DM would never allow it. So no using a staff for backstabbing and no closing doors or firing into the fog of war and other cheesy tactics that abuses the AI in anyway. As a DM I never allow backstabbing with a staff although some player will always say his thief is using this staff of that staff and I tend to find clever ways to stop this and as such any thief that does it always fails the backstab in some fun and spectacular way because who would use a six foot weapon to backstab, this is just ridiculous.

    This of course means no using UAI for thieves especially no using class-specified weapons - no using the holy avenger or other weapons. Also no using the cheesiness from HLA if you reach them - NO using HLA in SoA at all.

    NO keeping weapons that obviously do NOT belong to you in any way and cannot be considered loot - that means no getting the FoA; no upgrades to the Mace of disruption; no silver sword.

    That also means no resting in dungeons with hostile creatures or even non-hostile creatures; no trapping an area with a dragon etc you get the picture.

    NO pre-planning spell selection to battle dragons or lichs you must see that it is a lich or dragon before hand but then again no resting in the same area that also means NO leaving and coming back - you either battle unprepared or never battle the dragon or lich.

    Lich should be allowed to see through invisibility/hide in shadows and dragons can see through it but even if you just walk in far enough to spot the dragon without triggering the dialogue the dragon should smell you so you can't do this either.

    Spells - no pre-planning for anything - a mage will always want to try out a new spell - so if your mage learns a new spell it should be used at the very next battle either wise why bother learning it. Plus if your NPC is your mage you must sort of think like that NPC for their spell selection instead of what you think is useful for the game but for the NPC and what he/she thinks is useful for them to survive during their adventures. NPC must try to save their own skin first - that means buffing him/herself first is their primary concern (so set the AI to self buff for casters) and clerics heal first (so set the AI that they do that). No drinking healing potions unless they disengage from combat, the character must physically remove himself from battle by taking a few steps away.

    Also no illogical dual wielding - that means no dual flails or anything with a flail - it makes no sense and should be impossible. That also means no katana or bastard sword dual wielding; and any offhand weapon must be smaller either a club, short sword or dagger if you are using a longsword in your main hand. You can dual the same weapons ie dual axes or hammers or even scimitars or any small weapon BUT no dualing two longswords.

    Spells that are obviously broken can only be used as they were meant to be used so clones of any kind cannot use items plus you cannot use SI when using these clones. And no using cheese tactics with them such as hiding them - they must be in the heat of battle.

    NO using potion stacking of any kind - ie potion of master thievery. Lets see you steal from Ribald without potion stacking as you as you leave Irenicus' dungeon and try to get his ring of regeneration.

    That also means no stealing and reselling items to the same merchant.

    And if you have scs installed you have to change the cost of helping to 100,000 gold OR leave immediately when you have raised 20,000 needed to save Imoen you can't stay around Athkatla or the surrounding country side adventuring. You get the gold you go and save Imoen with the equipment you have on since it should really be a matter of paying a fine or bail or bribe to get Imoen out of a prison - it should be really that easy to do its just getting there that is the hard part to do it - as you are NOT thinking that Irenicus will have taken over the place or that you might be thrown into a maze dungeon - it should really be as simple as a bribe to take Imoen out of prison - SO that means NO buying amazing gear of any kind.

    Adventuring: means no peeking into places you have no right to be peeking into - so no opening secret doors within an inn/tavern that is open for business or stealing from them insight of any patron in the inn- secret doors and rooms obviously belong to the owner and if you do look in and see a guardian starring back you will NOT fight it as this place belongs to someone else namely the owner of the inn/tavern. This also means no killing patrons of an inn.

    When thrown in prison or are captured you should also be totally unarmed - so in spellhold you should be unarmed and unarmored at the start of that dungeon - you can regain a portion of your stuff when you leave the maze area (roll a dice to determine what is kept and what is lost) and return to Spellhold itself.

    NO kicking Imoen out of the party you are here to save her.

    NO picking up handy items in containers that should not really contain them - no vampire would keep stakes close to where they live that is just crazy - so any items like that including non-magical weapons/ammo near a golem that needs a non-magical weapon to hit can NOT be used.

    Also play to your alignment - if you are lawful good you better not be breaking and entering places - doors are locked for a reason and magical locks mean that they don't want to be disturbed so you don't bother them at all.

    And really if you were raised by Gorion then you should play like a person raised by Gorion in Candlekeep - that means no unusual classes - ie no barbarian or dwarven defender or druid or assassin or bounty hunter and most definitely no kensai or berserker or blackguard. Plus at worse you will be neutral evil so no chaotic actions like murdering good dragons or killing random people.

    And although experienced somewhat in adventuring no using tactics that you would never use since you have never faced a dragon or lich before in battle. In BG1 there are no lichs or dragons so you have NO experience facing them so that means no using the spells that actually work against them BUT you say that the NPC might have experience with these creatures but considering that circumstance most likely they have not as they are still here; e.g. if Edwin had experience with Lichs he'd do his quest by himself instead of waiting for us to help him do it. Basically any tactic or cheese that you would use against them you are not allowed to use.

    Also if you do not have Viconia in your party that means you have no experience with drows or how they act since we never really had a chance to talk to one so be sort of stupid when acting like one in the drow city; plus no sacrificing an animal to the demon pit as no one in their right mind would do this but if your curiosity is so high and you do it anyways no pre-planning or pre-positioning your party in any way + you must suffer -5 rep loss for doing something idiotic if you are of any good alignment and randomly lose -1 to a stat point (roll a d6 to determine what you lose); if you are neutral you suffer -2 to rep and if you are evil you lose nothing but you gain a +1 rep; if you are a paladin or ranger PC you automatically fall for being an idiot.

    Play also to your stats - so if your stats for WIS is low you better act like it - that means if you see a long hallway with no obvious traps you will walk down it - as you do not have to wisdom to think more deeply or you pick the not so good dialogue thinking it is good - not being wise as a lot of draw backs similarly to be of only average INT (9-12) you must act like an average person with average INT; if your stats for INT is less than 7 you are a total idiot and must act it. And if you have a CHA of less than 9 you are not allowed in an inn/tavern.

    NPCs equipped leave with all their equipment (that means no stripping them of their magical gear) and their share of the gold and jewels. No deliberately breaking up pairs and if one dies by accident you lose them both even if you can keep them - it is not logical that the one remaining would no mourn and leave your party. No picking up Hexxat just for her bag of holding.

    No using metagaming at all.

    Try no re-rolls for stats or no adjusting stats.

    OR if you want to be really random get the necessary dice and roll for everything. For example take a d20 and assign numbers to the classes and roll to see what you get - make everything up by chance. Randomize everything so you don't pick anything the rolls will do everything from character creation to dialogue choices. For a sorcerer make spell selection really random with a d20 or d100.







  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    For Firkraag and Saladrex and Thaxll'ssillyia (shadow dragon) at least you could prepare though as you do not have to fight them initially but can dialog out of a fight for the reds or have the wardstone and come back for them later.

    Liches would be a big challenge this way since you don't really know they are coming. Maybe the Kangaxx quest liches, but that is debatable.

    JuliusBorisov
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    edited June 2016
    True you don't have to battle any of the dragons immediately that's why I wanted the player to either battle now or forever lose the option to battle them.

    For Firkraag: If the PC can prepare for a battle with a dragon its obvious that a dragon would reinstall all his defenses that you already took down and more than likely make it better. Afterall you defeated all of Firkraag's defenses and his hench-monsters. The arrogance of a dragon means that it doesn't want to be bothered even if it doesn't think that you can defeat him but then again if he's been watching you then he knows you have that potential and adventurers are if nothing else are annoying insects that usually want my dragon hoard of treasure; so yes as a dragon I reinstall my defenses again and make it harder for you to reach me why should I have to deal with mere adventurers when minions are paid to do that. :p

    Shadow Dragon battle: yes you can prepare after defeating the shade lord giving you time to prepare spells but what spells to prepare is the question as you have never faced one and you cannot leave the area to buy spells or items - you battle now to defeat this darkness after you defeated the shade lord. This is really the only dragon you have to defeat in order to really save Umar Hills completely.

    Saladrax like Firkraag is a totally optional battle and only rather suicidal adventurers would battle dragons just because they are there. Without scs improved dragon installed these dragon battles are not fair to the dragon.

    For those playing evil and wanting to battle Aladon after getting her eggs - there should be an option that the dragon realizing that you want to battle steals her eggs (she can teleport things) and then teleports herself away leaving you with nothing. A greater dragon or ancient dragon as she is, is smart powerful and will outsmart mere mortals especially one that is tired of mortals. So you don't get to battle her but obviously unless someone really mods this to happen this will never be an option. But as a silver dragon if you are evil aligned its obvious that she can smell it so in her dragon mind takes the worse into consideration any evil party that tries to attack is suddenly ambushed by her spells that paralyzes the entire party either letting her gather her eggs and leaving or bringing in allies like Devas or other allied greater summons to defeat you utterly - leaving you unconscious and stripped of your most powerful gear - a dragon is after all a dragon and free magical items is always a bonus. o:)

    Lich battles unprepared are meant to be a huge challenge for the unwary adventurer so even if you survive you should lose someone or maybe several someones >:) - PCs that lose companions this way learn very quickly not to fight Liches or fight them better. BUT even if you learn how to fight the regular lich a demi-lich should kill them outright as it is an entirely different lich - no using cheesy spell tactics for this.

    FinnTheHuman
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited June 2016
    Well, that's what scouts are for in a party of adventurers, I may say.
    They spot the enemy force without being noticed, and come back with the intel for their allies so they can prepare

    That's a role in a party that players of BG2 tends to forget.

    Post edited by Moonheart on
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited June 2016
    I thank you for all the ideas. :)

    The suggestion of @FinnTheHuman about centering my next playthrough on uncoventional strategies is interesting in fact... this is true that this was the most interesting point of my Children of Fire playthrough.
    But now I'm thinking about it, this is not something that easy to achieve.

    The problem is that most classes are just one or two trick ponys:
    - a rogue can only swing its weapon and backstab people
    - a warrior can only swing its weapon and sometimes use a class ability like the Berzerker's rage
    This makes them awfuly non-versatile, and thus, turn any battle relying on them to an eternal repeatition of the same strategy.

    For exemple, in my Children of Fire playthrough, I used Rasaad to crush many opponents... but what can you tell about such battles after the two first times? Is there any interest to describe ten times in a row how a monk kill people with its fists?

    So to write a playthrough with some interesting, unconvential strategies, I need two thing more than any other: versatility... and good a reason to use this versatility
    For exemple, a Mage/Cleric is certainly the top of the versatility, look all those spells! But what good it does if once I sorted all the spells, I just always use the same ones again and again?

    For exemple, I thought that I could write a party of mages like @FinneousPJ suggested, and share equaly the spells between the 6 of them based on a thematic... but I'm not truly sure it won't end the same way: the mages that will recieve spells like Time Stop/Horrid Wilting are probably going to become quickly the center of all the strategies... and thus, fights are going to look the same after some time

    So, a big question for me actualy is: "What can force a party to change its strategies often?" (and this, without SCS)

    Post edited by Moonheart on
    FinnTheHumanJuliusBorisov
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,426
    One interesting kind of party I like to make consists of one or two extremely tanky characters who have pretty much no offensive capabilities (like a dwarven defender who has 25 Constitution but is forced to fight unarmed), and a bunch of glass cannon characters (like a kensai with 25 Strength, 1 Dexterity and 1 Constitution, or a mage who can't cast Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Protection from Magic Weapons or any other protection spell). The tanky characters should be as tanky as possible without being completely invincible (they should not have 100% resistance to any physical damage types), and the glass cannons should be as fragile as possible.

    The idea is to have the tanks distract the enemies, allowing the glass cannons to beat them up. The tanks should not be able to win battles on their own, and neither should the glass cannons.

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Moonheart said:

    I thank you for all the ideas. :)

    The suggestion of @FinnTheHuman about centering my next playthrough on uncoventional strategies is interesting in fact... this is true that this was the most interesting point of my Children of Fire playthrough.
    But now I'm thinking about it, this is not something that easy to achieve.

    The problem is that most classes are just one or two trick ponys:
    - a rogue can only swing its weapon and backstab people
    - a warrior can only swing its weapon and sometimes use a class ability like the Berzerker's rage
    This makes them awfuly non-versatile, and thus, turn any battle relying on them to an eternal repeatition of the same strategy.

    For exemple, in my Children of Fire playthrough, I used Rasaad to crush many opponents... but what can you tell about such battles after the two first times? Is there any interest to describe ten times in a row how a monk kill people with its fists?

    So to write a playthrough with some interesting, unconvential strategies, I need two thing more than any other: versatility... and good a reason to use this versatility
    For exemple, a Mage/Cleric is certainly the top of the versatility, look all those spells! But what good it does if once I sorted all the spells, I just always use the same ones again and again?

    For exemple, I thought that I could write a party of mages like @FinneousPJ suggested, and share equaly the spells between the 6 of them based on a thematic... but I'm not truly sure it won't end the same way: the mages that will recieve spells like Time Stop/Horrid Wilting are probably going to become quickly the center of all the strategies... and thus, fights are going to look the same after some time


    So, a big question for me actualy is: "What can force a party to change its strategies often?" (and this, without SCS)
    Well, you. You as a player have to decide to role play a different character in a different way. Maybe it could be interesting for you (and many others to read) to actually make a point to try to use each spell, or to find a place where each spell can be useful. There can be a lot of game before you get Horrid Wilting or Time Stop. :)

    JuliusBorisov
  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    Moonheart said:

    I thank you for all the ideas. :)

    The suggestion of @FinnTheHuman about centering my next playthrough on uncoventional strategies is interesting in fact... this is true that this was the most interesting point of my Children of Fire playthrough.
    But now I'm thinking about it, this is not something that easy to achieve.

    The interesting thing about children of fire to me was how you ran with the theme. Doing that worked well from a strategy point of view, but also especially from a RP point of view. No, it is not easy to achieve, so I'm sorry I can't give you better advice than "do something different." I can offer you encouragement, though. I'm sure what you do come up with will be good. Just like Children and Perfect Plans (rip, so sad) are.

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited June 2016
    Well the problem with "perfect plans" is that every fight took some efforts, so I'm currently truly disappointed to lost my save files.
    I do have rolled a new shadowdancer with a 92 attribute score since that time (which is for me the perfect score), but I can't find the courage yet to redo aaaalll the fights from chapters 1, 2, 3 and 4 to get back where I was.

    Besides this old idea, thematics that are both roleplay and strategicaly interesting that I have thought about so far are those ones:



    The Spellbreakers

    Gorion's foster child got some issures with the mages of Candlekeep while he was young, and turned into a man distrustful of all spellcasters.... starting to train himself to become a Wizard Slayer.
    As Irenicus capture him, his loath for spellcaster becomes even worst and he decide to only take as companions people that will not cast any spell, even in the form of scrolls

    => The challenge is to take down the game without the use of any spells. But while it this seems interesting to me, I fear it could be too difficult to maintain until the end... and so, what I would do if I run several chapter only to end to conclude I did bite in more than I could schew?



    The Specialists

    Gorion's foster child became a potent and arrogant spellblade thinking that mages are superior to everyone, and only trusting and respecting people who are mages themselves. He will only recruit people able to cast arcane magic, which will bring an issue: how do you split fairly the few scrolls you find in the way?

    => The challenge here would be to do a mage party where none of the members learn the same kind of spells. The party would include a spellblade, a summoner, an enchanter, an utility mage, and neera as destruction spell thrower, with the goal to make her use her magic the least possible, as wild magic is instable and dangerous even for her allies
    Sounds nice, but it will make every fight complicated too... I need some courage for this one, as well as a long preparation to decide the list of scroll each character will recieve



    The Children of Fire v3

    The return of the Pyromaniac Bhaalspawn... with higher stakes: use of EE edition's item forbiden, which mean no Robe of Vecna, and thus, no Nuke. Each Fireball will have to be caster one by one, and the party will have do deal with the bosses until the Dragon Disciple reduce its hp to 0

    => This is a subject I'm familiar with, I know I'll have some fun with it, but I fear it could be boring to write and read something so close to something I already did



    The Twin Dragons

    Rasaad got and evil twin, and he's a Bhaalspawn. Together, they will be forced due to circumstance to work together and kick everything that stands in their way, from vampires to other bhaalspawn.

    => The challenge is to complete the game with only one way to deal damage: fists! Magic is allowed as a support only...
    Sounds fun, but... what I would speak about truly in the strategical section? "Today again, I punched things and they died?"

    Post edited by Moonheart on
  • jtthjtth Member Posts: 169
    edited June 2016
    Try just playing with a smaller party, 4-5 folks, no mage or arcane magic of any kind (SCS).

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    I have told it many times, but I play on android, so I can't use mods.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Don't abandon an idea on the possibility of failure.

  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    How about a pacifist run? I think you can get through BGI with only killing Mulahey and Serevok, some monsters, and perhaps a few others. I don't know about BGII pacifist, but I'm sure it's been done. If you don't kill, you will miss out on so much XP, so there is a big challenge mechanic there.

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    I thought about it, but on BG2, there is a LOT of people you must kill to advance... and if you kill only those ones, you'll be to underleveled to kill Melissan

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