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Is there a recruitable party member who is proficient in flails/morningstar?

Just assembled this weapon. Seems powerful, but I got nobody so far who can use it proficiently. Is there anybody in the game who I could potentially recruit that could use it?
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Comments

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    No one has that proficiency before being recruited.
    JuliusBorisovjackjack
  • superluccixsuperluccix Member Posts: 76
    Dang. Ok.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592

    I prefer Minsc myself. FoA in main jand and defender of easthaven in the off. By level 12 he can have two pips in flails.

    And in the end, with Hardiness and AoF he gets pretty darn tanky if you give him defender of easthaven offhand. He's definitely my favourite flail user amongst NPCs.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    The funny thing is, you need metagame information for this stuff. I remember my first game in BG2. I was left thinking how strange it was that the game contained a surprising amount of very nice flails and excellent halberds - but there was no one to use them.
    RelSundan
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064

    The funny thing is, you need metagame information for this stuff. I remember my first game in BG2. I was left thinking how strange it was that the game contained a surprising amount of very nice flails and excellent halberds - but there was no one to use them.

    It can be exciting to have to wait 4 to 6 levels to create your own flail or halberd user without meta knowledge.
    JuliusBorisovjackjack
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    Sure, no argument there. That didn't happen in my first game, though. (I also remember that I found neither the Equalizer nor the Wave in my first game, although I was quite looking forward to both.)
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918
    As a person who has been playing this for about 10 years, metagame thinking fires off automatically. I can't pretend to not know stuff I can say In My sleep.
    ThacoBellmf2112Montresor_SPbooinyoureyes
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    @RelSundan: You're a beginner. :smiley:

    I have to say I only managed to get through BG1 in the EE version and even that was with difficulty and simply because I wanted to enter SoD "properly". It's still rubbish, as a game, if you ask me. But BG2 is the best game of all time.
    Flashburn
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137

    I found neither the Equalizer nor the Wave in my first game, although I was quite looking forward to both.

    I'm jealous that you were spared the crushing disappointment of building the Equalizer.

    It's still rubbish, as a game, if you ask me.

    :worried:
    jackjackmf2112Griboe
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    @joluv: Yes, I have subsequently learned that the Equalizer is not worth it, to say the least. Hence I have never bothered to have it made.

    As for BG1: the story is all over the place, there's no banter, you need to walk around an awful lot on maps that contain nothing interesting, the quests are stupefyingly simplistic, and so on. All of this was thankfully absent from BG2.
    booinyoureyes
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918

    @RelSundan: You're a beginner. :smiley:

    Watch your mouth lest I smash it. :wink:
    Griboe
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited June 2016

    The funny thing is, you need metagame information for this stuff. I remember my first game in BG2. I was left thinking how strange it was that the game contained a surprising amount of very nice flails and excellent halberds - but there was no one to use them.

    If you think about it in terms of real life, there needs to be training for those weapons. But what are the most common weapons? A longsword, shortsword, dagger, club, spear. So, people will train with those and probably a shield. It would require extra training to use Flails or Halberds well.
    In the BG series, "extra training" is shown by adding a pip to those weapons on the proficiency section. And, since D&D 2E puts limits on what classes can use what, you're not going to have everyone using a flail just because they have hands. lol
  • JouniJouni Member Posts: 50


    If you think about it in terms of real life, there needs to be training for those weapons. But what are the most common weapons? A longsword, shortsword, dagger, club, spear. So, people will train with those and probably a shield. It would require extra training to use Flails or Halberds well.

    In real life, weapons like spears, pikes, and halberds were common, because they were cheap to produce and relatively easy to use. Smaller swords that would be classified as shortswords in D&D were also common as sidearms.

    Larger swords were expensive to make, required years of practice, and were generally restricted to higher social classes. The D&D longsword, bastard sword, and two-handed sword are really the same weapon from different eras. As armor technology improved, swords grew bigger, and eventually people stopped using shields with them.

    Various axes and maces were also widely used, especially in the early Middle Ages. They were also cheaper than swords. Later, as infantry weapons generally grew longer, they became primarily cavalry weapons. Morning stars and war hammers were relatively late inventions that never saw widespread use.

    A flail is probably not even a real weapon.
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    The flail is an agricultural implement that was used by commoners as a weapon when they needed one quick.
  • JouniJouni Member Posts: 50
    BillyYank said:

    The flail is an agricultural implement that was used by commoners as a weapon when they needed one quick.

    That's a different kind of flail. The D&D flail is generally understood to be the ball-and-chain one, which is primarily useful for hitting yourself.
    jackjackmf2112booinyoureyesNonnahswriter
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    In terms of weapon design, the flail is indeed a bad joke, and it is highly questionable if it was ever used in battle. A broken bottle has probably been used more often...
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited June 2016
    BillyYank said:

    The flail is an agricultural implement that was used by commoners as a weapon when they needed one quick.

    Um...no...

    The other type of European flail is a shorter weapon consisting of a wooden haft connected by a chain, rope, or leather to one or more roughly spherical striking ends. Modern works variously refer to this particular weapon as a "military flail," "mace-and-chain" or "chain mace," and sometimes erroneously label them as simply a "mace" or morning star, terms which technically apply only to rigid weapons. Some historians refer to this weapon as a kettenmorgenstern ("chain morning star") to distinguish it from the rigid weapon.[11]

    If you look at the weapon models in-game, we're clearly talking about a ball and chain flail, not the agricultural tool. Since we're clearly about this type of weapon, one should note that the wikipedia article points out how these weapons were actually quite rare.




  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I'm just gonna drop this here, since there seems to be a certain amount of misinformation flying around about flails.

    mf2112DreamingViks
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918
    edited June 2016
    In knight tournaments they used flails for smashing cabbage (they can't kill each other obviously) but it is Said that they are REAL weapons used by knights, which could kill knights in one blow to the head do to the design of the weapon. With a full plated helmet on. I think they referred to them as "hjälmkrossare" which is a swedish Word for "helm crusher" or something.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    Given the weakness of the human neck, you can kill a knight in one blow with anything that can be swung and weighs enough.
  • JouniJouni Member Posts: 50
    Jarrakul said:

    I'm just gonna drop this here, since there seems to be a certain amount of misinformation flying around about flails.

    Could you use a few minutes to summarize the video, instead of making everyone else watch a 9-minute video of a talking head?
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Oh, sure. Note that I have a lot less expertise than Matt Easton, but I'll do my best to paraphrase him.

    Basically, the short version is that flails did exist historically, as attested to in original historical sources, although they were pretty rare. Both short-handled, one-handed flails and long-handled, two-handed flails existed. Both chain-and-ball and two-rods-stuck-together (like the agricultural device) flails existed and were used for war. Multi-headed flails existed but were rare even among flails. All of the above were primarily meant for combat between armored individuals.

    In addition, flail chains were usually of such a length that it was impossible to hit yourself in normal, competent use (in the one Matt Easton shows in the video, the flail is literally not long enough to hit the hand he's holding it with). Even when flails had longer chains, the physics involved make it extremely unlikely for a remotely competent wielder to be struck by the flail, and if that does somehow happen, it's not going to hit very hard. Since flails were generally used by people in heavy armor, being hit lightly isn't much of a concern.
    RelSundanbooinyoureyesNonnahswriter
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918
    Jarrakul said:

    Oh, sure. Note that I have a lot less expertise than Matt Easton, but I'll do my best to paraphrase him.

    Basically, the short version is that flails did exist historically, as attested to in original historical sources, although they were pretty rare. Both short-handled, one-handed flails and long-handled, two-handed flails existed. Both chain-and-ball and two-rods-stuck-together (like the agricultural device) flails existed and were used for war. Multi-headed flails existed but were rare even among flails. All of the above were primarily meant for combat between armored individuals.

    In addition, flail chains were usually of such a length that it was impossible to hit yourself in normal, competent use (in the one Matt Easton shows in the video, the flail is literally not long enough to hit the hand he's holding it with). Even when flails had longer chains, the physics involved make it extremely unlikely for a remotely competent wielder to be struck by the flail, and if that does somehow happen, it's not going to hit very hard. Since flails were generally used by people in heavy armor, being hit lightly isn't much of a concern.

    This somewhat agrees with what I wrote.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    I think this thread has gone too far off-topic. The question in the OP was about NPCs who can use flails, not about Equalizer or history of flails.
    mf2112elminsterPteranjackjack
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918
    Someone here Said Minsc and I say yes! Just level him up and get some pips in flails. Late levels (ToB) you don't need any profs points to effectively wield anything.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Jouni said:

    BillyYank said:

    The flail is an agricultural implement that was used by commoners as a weapon when they needed one quick.

    That's a different kind of flail. The D&D flail is generally understood to be the ball-and-chain one, which is primarily useful for hitting yourself.

    jackjackNonnahswriter
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