I don't see how changing Quayles stats to the minimum requirement for his class would be illegal. 1 more point of dexterity, and 5 more points of Wisdom would be needed to make your own cleric / illusionist, and I think 9 min strength too. Why should NPCs be weaker than their classes minimum stats in the character generator?
Nah his stats are all legal except for Dexterity. Technically, for a Mage you need 9 Intelligence. For Illusionist you need 16 Dexterity. For Cleric you need 9 Wisdom. And yes, his 6 Charisma is legit too. It's also hilariously fitting to his character, I must say...
@cory5694 A lot of them are not custom-tailored to their spell school, or their gameplay, or anything. Eldoth starts with some random Necromancy, Quayle doesn't even have any Illusion spells outside of his built-in Invisibility power. Xan is another good example, he has precious few Enchanting spells, which is silly. Pretty much every freakin' NPC in the game who can cast spells starts with Larloch's Minor Drain for some reason.
No, for multiclass characters the minimum stat for each classes primary attribute raises to 15 ( cleric / mages need 15 int / 15 wis minimum).
For dual class, the minimum stat required increases to 17 (e.g. 17 int is the minimum needed to dual to a mage).
Jaheiras minimum stats should be 15 str, 15 wis, 15 cha. You need 15 str minimum for a multiclass fighter, and 15 wis and cha for a multi druid.
Lots of characters in BG1 have illegal minimum stats. Only minsc makes sense due to the lore because he took a blow to the head and lost his ranger wisdom.
Hmmm, or not. I just checked and you can make a cleric / mage with 9 int + wis.
The 15 stat requirement is just for dual classes primary class, and 17 for their secondary - so to dual a fighter into a druid you need 15 strength, 17 wis, 17 cha.
Wow. they can even have 3 dexterity, dont need the illusionists minimum of 16 dex:
Similarly I would change Coran to a legal 19 dex elven Archer kit.
Sigh.
That would shift an already effective NPC Into being vastly overpowered, as well as rob good-alignd parties of their best (only?) multi class fighter/thief.
His 20 DEX does nothing for his ranged thac0 or AC, btw (it's the same bonus at 19 and 20). All it does is give a slight boost to some of his thieving abilities.
I don't see how changing Quayles stats to the minimum requirement for his class would be illegal. 1 more point of dexterity, and 5 more points of Wisdom would be needed to make your own cleric / illusionist, and I think 9 min strength too. Why should NPCs be weaker than their classes minimum stats in the character generator?
If it were up to me, the new Quayle would be:
10 str 16 dex 10 con 15 int 15 wis Minimum allowed CHA if more than 6.
And that makes him as good as the absolute worst Cleric / Illusionist you can create yourself.
Similarly I would change Coran to a legal 19 dex elven Archer kit.
NO! Leave Coran alone. The 20 Dex thing is neat. Puts him on part with Drizzt! I'm okay with my guys having better than normal stats. Maybe Coran read a tome of dexterity in his adventuring days, or something.
It's when guys are worse than a guy you could roll even with the minimum rolls allowed that I have an issue. Quayle has, what? Like 67 total stat points? Minimum roll for a PC is 75.
That said, a gnome illusionist/cleric's min stats are as follows: STR: 6 DEX: 16 CON : 8 INT: 8 WIS: 10 CHA: 3
I just found out about this revamping of baldur's gate yesterday. Why would it be illegal to change Quayle's stats? Where is all this information about the game? I had been hoping they'd change a lot of things about the game... like the useless NPCs....
NO! Leave Coran alone. The 20 Dex thing is neat. Puts him on part with Drizzt! I'm okay with my guys having better than normal stats. Maybe Coran read a tome of dexterity in his adventuring days, or something.
Oh ok. How about Kivan? I just really want an Archer NPC
18/12 str, 19 dex, rest whatever it was originally, and change him to an elven Archer?
I wonder whether the Tutu min requirement change is due to using the BG2 engine though? I need to reinstall BG2 to find out.
Yes I was right, on a fresh install of BG2 SOA, min dex for a gnome Cleric / Illusionist is 3. Its not a problem with Tutu, its the BG2 engine that changes it. Since BGEE will be using the BG2 engine, cleric / illusionists likely wont get their min dex stat fixed.
Quayle's still an awesome character. To me it makes sense in the context of his character that his stats are pretty terrible. They don't make him unplayable.
Quayle's still an awesome character. To me it makes sense in the context of his character that his stats are pretty terrible. They don't make him unplayable.
Agreed completely. Though when you get into 1 point from being the minimum fails like this, you can't help but feel it's an oversight. I wouldn't dream of changing any of his other stats though, they are quite reflective of his character indeed.
NO! Leave Coran alone. The 20 Dex thing is neat. Puts him on part with Drizzt! I'm okay with my guys having better than normal stats. Maybe Coran read a tome of dexterity in his adventuring days, or something.
It's when guys are worse than a guy you could roll even with the minimum rolls allowed that I have an issue. Quayle has, what? Like 67 total stat points? Minimum roll for a PC is 75.
Maybe Quayle used some items, read some tomes that negatively affected his stats then? I don't think his stats should be changed, he's still playable and effective as he is.
Quayle's stats are a problem compared to every other NPC, though. Outside of Garrick, he's got the worst rolls possible. All I want is just a single point more of dexterity because it's a positive change for one of the worst statistical characters and even just that one point is a huge benefit to him. Extra AC, extra ranged thac0 (because Quayle should be slinging it up as is.)
Everyone else with illegal rolls in a way that negatively impacts the character (Minsc and Anomen) still have exceptional stats in the areas that really matter. Quayle gets by purely on his multiclass.
Quayle doesn't have decent stats for his character class though - who needs a Cleric with 10 wisdom? No one. Most people see the cleric part and only 10 wisdom, that's why they don't use him. Look at how much better Aeries stats are in BG2, she has low con but stick the reflection shield and stoneskins on her and she is uber.
I also mod minsc to a berserker. Remember that GW1 didn't have kits, if it did then IMO minscs brain damage and personality much better fits a berserker, like when you make a paladin that loses too much reputation it becomes a fighter.
Quayle doesn't have decent stats for his character class though - who needs a Cleric with 10 wisdom? No one. Most people see the cleric part and only 10 wisdom, that's why they don't use him. Look at how much better Aeries stats are in BG2, she has low con but stick the reflection shield and stoneskins on her and she is uber.
Yus but every NPC in BG2 have mad stats because it's a high level campaign.
Pretty much every freakin' NPC in the game who can cast spells starts with Larloch's Minor Drain for some reason.
Perhaps The History of the Fateful Coin came with a free copy of Larloch's Minor Drain as a purchase incentive? Would definitely explain why they're EVERYWHERE.
Quayle doesn't have decent stats for his character class though - who needs a Cleric with 10 wisdom? No one. Most people see the cleric part and only 10 wisdom, that's why they don't use him. Look at how much better Aeries stats are in BG2, she has low con but stick the reflection shield and stoneskins on her and she is uber.
Yus but every NPC in BG2 have mad stats because it's a high level campaign.
And just about every other NPC in BG1 has better stats than Quayle. Id rather use a pure mage that can reach level 9, and Jaheira or Yeslick (maybe both) for my healers.
Quayle doesn't have decent stats for his character class though - who needs a Cleric with 10 wisdom? No one. Most people see the cleric part and only 10 wisdom, that's why they don't use him. Look at how much better Aeries stats are in BG2, she has low con but stick the reflection shield and stoneskins on her and she is uber.
Yus but every NPC in BG2 have mad stats because it's a high level campaign.
And just about every other NPC in BG1 has better stats than Quayle. Id rather use a pure mage that can reach level 9, and Jaheira or Yeslick (maybe both) for my healers.
Well that's you. I personally like having Quayle in my group from time to time. He is far from useless.
@SandmanCCL I couldn't have said it any better myself. Glad we agree on this!
Even if you made a minimum stat cleric / illusionist yourself with 16 dex, 8 wis, 10 int, it wouldn't be useless. Baldurs gate cheats by default with stat based casting requirements being completely waived, just so they can give you terrible stat NPCs that can still cast spells. In PNP Quayle wouldn't be capable of casting a single cleric spell.
@Mungri Nope, not true. Cleric spells didn't require any base wisdom stat to cast... only mage spells had Intelligence minimums (and those were twice the level of the spell. So Level 4 spells could only be cast by an intelligence of 9 or above, Level 5 spells at 10th level and so on. But a cleric would use spells of any level. A low wisdom just meant he had a chance of his spells failing.
@Mungri I know they changed the way Wizard spells were gained in 3e (It was INT 10 plus spell level needed to cast), so I can believe they changed the way Priest spells worked as well. And I just checked- they made it the same for clerics (WIS 10 plus spell level needed to cast). Obviously, it didn't work that way in 2e.
I've been planning to roll a cleric/illusionist as my first PC for ages, but all this talk about Quayle has made me think about rolling a different class so that I can recruit him.
I've been planning to roll a cleric/illusionist as my first PC for ages, but all this talk about Quayle has made me think about rolling a different class so that I can recruit him.
Very easy to make a Cleric/Illusionist better than him, but I won't lie I'm partial to having NPCs over PCs, more personality that way. To some, such as myself, Quayle is outrageously hilarious ... others despise his existence. For me, that aspect would make or break taking him over a PC. Because sure his rolls suck, but as a Cleric/Illusionist his spellcasting capabilities are incredible regardless of his stats.
Comments
@cory5694 A lot of them are not custom-tailored to their spell school, or their gameplay, or anything. Eldoth starts with some random Necromancy, Quayle doesn't even have any Illusion spells outside of his built-in Invisibility power. Xan is another good example, he has precious few Enchanting spells, which is silly. Pretty much every freakin' NPC in the game who can cast spells starts with Larloch's Minor Drain for some reason.
For dual class, the minimum stat required increases to 17 (e.g. 17 int is the minimum needed to dual to a mage).
Jaheiras minimum stats should be 15 str, 15 wis, 15 cha. You need 15 str minimum for a multiclass fighter, and 15 wis and cha for a multi druid.
Lots of characters in BG1 have illegal minimum stats. Only minsc makes sense due to the lore because he took a blow to the head and lost his ranger wisdom.
The 15 stat requirement is just for dual classes primary class, and 17 for their secondary - so to dual a fighter into a druid you need 15 strength, 17 wis, 17 cha.
Wow. they can even have 3 dexterity, dont need the illusionists minimum of 16 dex:
http://i.imgur.com/DBkyr.jpg
So yea, Quayles stats are ok, just that no one ever wants to use him.
Sigh.
That would shift an already effective NPC Into being vastly overpowered, as well as rob good-alignd parties of their best (only?) multi class fighter/thief.
His 20 DEX does nothing for his ranged thac0 or AC, btw (it's the same bonus at 19 and 20). All it does is give a slight boost to some of his thieving abilities.
It's when guys are worse than a guy you could roll even with the minimum rolls allowed that I have an issue. Quayle has, what? Like 67 total stat points? Minimum roll for a PC is 75.
That said, a gnome illusionist/cleric's min stats are as follows:
STR: 6
DEX: 16
CON : 8
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 3
18/12 str, 19 dex, rest whatever it was originally, and change him to an elven Archer?
Tutu has great mods but it is a terrible platform & worse representation of the actual game. I'm really hoping Beamdog gets this right.
Edit: I also just checked the original game & Tutu ... And Sandman *and* Mungri are both right.
Min DEX for a gnome cleric/illusionist in the original game is 16.
In Tutu, it's 3.
O.O
I wonder whether the Tutu min requirement change is due to using the BG2 engine though? I need to reinstall BG2 to find out.
Yes I was right, on a fresh install of BG2 SOA, min dex for a gnome Cleric / Illusionist is 3. Its not a problem with Tutu, its the BG2 engine that changes it. Since BGEE will be using the BG2 engine, cleric / illusionists likely wont get their min dex stat fixed.
Anyway great job guys for clearing that up.
Coincidence?
I don't think so :P
Everyone else with illegal rolls in a way that negatively impacts the character (Minsc and Anomen) still have exceptional stats in the areas that really matter. Quayle gets by purely on his multiclass.
I also mod minsc to a berserker. Remember that GW1 didn't have kits, if it did then IMO minscs brain damage and personality much better fits a berserker, like when you make a paladin that loses too much reputation it becomes a fighter.
@SandmanCCL I couldn't have said it any better myself. Glad we agree on this!