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What does/doesn't sleep affect?

What does 5HD mean in terms of actual monsters?

I've played through the game multiple times but I've never used sleep because 5+HD monsters being unaffected makes it sound kind of vague in terms of usefulness.

Comments

  • ReiRei Member Posts: 63
    Seems like way more things are less than 5HD than I thought! I was thinking kobolds, xvarts and the odd mage, maybe. Thanks.

    JuliusBorisov
  • ReiRei Member Posts: 63
    Yep. Been trying it. Sleep is pretty damn good.

    lolien
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 384
    edited July 2016
    Sleep and glitterdust are basically your two best AoE spells early on. Glitterdust isn't nearly as devastating as sleep, but only by a hair (since blinded targets can't see anything except whats basically almost touching them and suffer sizable penalties to AC and attack).

    Now, IIRC, monsters *used* to get up once you hit them while they were sleeping, but in the BG2 engine they stay down? I seem to have memories of wacking napping hobs and them waking up.

    There are *lots* of encounters where sleep can be effective, in general unless somebody demonstrates their HD (by casting a spell you know the level requirement of lol) it's worth a try in most cases, especially if you have more than 1 arcane caster.

    Aerakar
  • ReiRei Member Posts: 63
    Gallenger said:

    There are *lots* of encounters where sleep can be effective, in general unless somebody demonstrates their HD (by casting a spell you know the level requirement of lol) it's worth a try in most cases, especially if you have more than 1 arcane caster.

    Shit. This just made me realize I've been completely misunderstanding the "5HD" thing.

    I was assuming less than 5HD meant creatures who would roll a d4 or less for their hitpoints when they leveled. You know, like mages. I guess it's actually fifth level or higher monsters, basically.

    mf2112JuliusBorisovlolien
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 384
    yeah with D&D whenever you see the word "hit dice" it means how many times they've rolled for HP basically lol so 5 HD is roughly equivalent to level five (monster hit dice being usually slightly different than PC hit dice).

    The monster HD are predictable usually - but when it comes to playable races you never *really* know unless you *know* you're dealing with a race that is immune to sleep (elves/drow).

    ThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Gallenger said:

    The monster HD are predictable usually - but when it comes to playable races you never *really* know unless you *know* you're dealing with a race that is immune to sleep (elves/drow).

    In these games though, they're only 90% resistant, not 100% immune. Sure, it's only 10%, but this IS RNG we're talkin' about here. If you tempt it, it will smite you like the fickle god it is.

  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 203
    How long will the 2nd level mage spell Power Word:Sleep remain effective? If I remember right, the spell description states that target must have maximum 20 hit points for it to work.

  • LorandarLorandar Member Posts: 33
    While Sleep is an awesome spell for low level adventurers, I never found a good use for the 2nd level version Power Word: Sleep. It only affects one creature, and with less than 20 hp at that...
    Does anyone ever choose this spell over other 2nd level arcane spells?

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,359
    Scs mages use pw:sleep on occasion. When a squishy member is wounded and tries to retreat/gulp a potion, it catches them perfectly and really complicates things. Ofcourse, I assume computer can detect hit points or such, but NOT always perfectly:I have seen them casting it on 21 hp party members as a waste.

    Sleep is very useful against a lot of enemies. Any caster that can cast 3rd lvl spells will be immune, though. (3rd lvl spells require 5 levels at the very least. More in case of sorcs and bards.) In scs enemy mages use it and it can be devastating. Elven sleep immunity and thief/bard fast lvl progress are golden.

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    lunar said:

    Scs mages use pw:sleep on occasion. When a squishy member is wounded and tries to retreat/gulp a potion, it catches them perfectly and really complicates things. Ofcourse, I assume computer can detect hit points or such, but NOT always perfectly:I have seen them casting it on 21 hp party members as a waste.

    Sleep is very useful against a lot of enemies. Any caster that can cast 3rd lvl spells will be immune, though. (3rd lvl spells require 5 levels at the very least. More in case of sorcs and bards.) In scs enemy mages use it and it can be devastating. Elven sleep immunity and thief/bard fast lvl progress are golden.

    Maybe they can "see" the Near Death condition like we can?

    lunar
  • TotalBaggerTotalBagger Member Posts: 4

    Actually, quite a lot of creatures in BG1, especially in wilderness, are affected by Sleep. It's the most powerful early-mid BG1 wizard spell.

    There's nothing better to see all those bandits, ankhegs, wolves, bears, kobolds, hobgoblins, xvarts and gnolls lay unconcious while you're dealing blows to them.

    In unmodded BG1, Blacktalon elites and amazon party after Nashel are subject to Sleep, among other things.

    As for HDs, you can look at http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/seabass/bgmonsters.html

    Man, I totally need to replace some magic missiles with sleep on my Neera. I've just been going all out offense this whole time, which makes me an idiot I guess haha. But then again, I am soon done clearing the Cloakwood Mines, so is it really worth it?

    lolien
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 384
    A lot of the bandits in Cloakwood will go sleepy sleepy :D A long time ago in third edition there was this excellent post called "How to be Batman" about how evocation spells are far inferior to "save or die"/"save or else" spell types. Because you do 3-4-5d4 with a magic missile (10 damage average) OR you could cast a single spell and cause 50%+ of all your enemies to be asleep and helpless lol. Almost every spell level in BG has some spell that can give the most popular damage dealing spells a run for their money.

    1. Sleep (by far) and Blindness - the blind status gives a penalty of 4 to AC and Thaco - and makes the target unable to see anything that isn't basically touching it (the enemies will just stand there doing nothing unless you're touching them). Note also that if you're an illusionist you get the specialist bonus on the blind save. IIRC that makes the blind save at -4 penalty.
    2. Glitterdust - Glitterdust not only reveals invisible creatures, but can blind in an area of affect! Glitterdust is *still* a great spell even into chapter 6 in BG2 lol. Melf's acid arrow is small potatoes in comparison to blinding an entire clod of monsters (since you'll be hitting them far more easily, they'll be hitting you far less - and that ONLY applies to tanks + enemy casters cant cast any spell that requires LOS unless they cast it on somebody right on top of them - which is basically every spell lol) - and its usefulness lasts a LONG time (especially once you get greater malison and cause monsters to fail their saves more often).
    3. Slow - Slow has a difficult to make saving throw - it will generally work for most of BG1 and BG2 or at least affect *some* of the creatures you're fighting. Slow makes most battles incredibly easy since it slows down enemy casting and attack rate - if you have a warrior heavy party (or are yourself a fighter/mage of some type) haste basically turns you or your friends into absolute juggernauts against slowed targets. The other nice thing about slow is that it doesn't affect your party at all (unlike skulltrap or fireball).
    4. Greater Malison - makes enemies saves worse. I mean... THINK OF ALL THE CRAZY THINGS YOU CAN DO (if you have an enchanter this is when the dominate persons and dire charms really become stupendously easy to use). Hmm do I cast an ice storm that does piddly damage, hurts my own party.... or do I make it so that next round I can more easily do some horrible thing to the enemy like charm their best caster/fighter... or blind/slow them. Emotion - Hopelessness is the level 4 version of sleep as well (as a failed save will result in enemies lying down and wallowing in self pity). If you're a spider spawns kinda guy... or have a poison user (dorn, assassins dagger, assassin class) greater malison will also make the poison far more likely to work! :D

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,569

    There's nothing better to see all those bandits, ankhegs, wolves, bears, kobolds, hobgoblins, xvarts and gnolls lay unconcious while you're dealing blows to them.

    Wait, I thought the EEs have enemies wake up after being hit when affected by Sleep. Has that behavior been reverted?? Is "Sleep" really "Total and Complete Paralysis?" (Because that is totally inappropriate for a 1st-level spell.)

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 17,447
    edited July 2016
    @subtledoctor That is IWDEE behavior, it had been a bug that had brought the same behavior to BG2EE (not BGEE) with the 1.3 patch but it was fixed with the 2.0 patch.

    ThacoBellmf2112
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    O_o

    That was no bug, that was an enhancement!
    Or so I thought...

    Feature Request: Rename the 1st level spell "sleep" to "coma"

    ThacoBell
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,569
    So, the current default behavior is that this level 1 spell completely paralyzes the victims, making it just as effective as Hold Person at level 3 or Emotion: Hopelessness at level 4 or Symbol: Stun at level 7? The only difference is being limited to 5 HD enemies? That's kind of insane.

    Sigh. Modders to the rescue, I guess. (A vibrant modding scene is great, but I wonder if the devs for these games ever feel some slight shame that mods are so widely believed to be integral to having a good experience...)

    Anyway, how about this: the spell will NOT be limited to 5 HD; and if an affected enemy is struck while sleeping, they wake up and are affected by Slow for 2 rounds.

    Then I'll move the "Total and Complete Paralysis" spell to level 3 or 4 where - oh wait it's already there.

    mf2112
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307

    Actually, quite a lot of creatures in BG1, especially in wilderness, are affected by Sleep. It's the most powerful early-mid BG1 wizard spell.

    There's nothing better to see all those bandits, ankhegs, wolves, bears, kobolds, hobgoblins, xvarts and gnolls lay unconcious while you're dealing blows to them.

    In unmodded BG1, Blacktalon elites and amazon party after Nashel are subject to Sleep, among other things.

    As for HDs, you can look at http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/seabass/bgmonsters.html

    Man, I totally need to replace some magic missiles with sleep on my Neera. I've just been going all out offense this whole time, which makes me an idiot I guess haha. But then again, I am soon done clearing the Cloakwood Mines, so is it really worth it?
    Welcome to the world of Crowd Control (CC)... Your one stop shop to make 'em drop!

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,356
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,109
    Actually, IIRC, in PnP a creature asleep would be killed if struck with a piercing or slashing weapon.

    So in comparison, being kept asleep while being hitted is kind of soft.

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