Review/Discussion and Thoughts (SOD {Spoilers})
the_sextein
Member Posts: 711
STORY: 86/100
+The game has it's own story adventure that is solid and that takes place between the two games. This story also includes elements that bridge the gap between Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. In my opinion, the story has a hook at the end that is just as good as the Imoen child of bhaal reveal in BG2. Perhaps it is not as good as finding out that the man behind the iron shortage is also your brother and that you and he are both children of a dead god but it's pretty effective and ties Icewind dale and Baldur's Gate together in a way.
+The Shining Lady is not exactly a great villain because she is not supposed to be. She is your opposition but you can understand why she is doing what she does. You know why people follow her and at the end, you know she has been deceived and did not intend to endanger the sword coast or allow another demon attack. I thought she was one of the best characters in the trilogy. She is guilty of crimes and is no hero but I still understood her cause and respected her power. When the real enemy is revealed at the end it was very satisfying for me. If you have not played Icewind dale then maybe it would not have as much of an impact but I liked it.
+The adventure itself has a decent amount of detail written in to let you know why the flaming fist are doing what they are. The attempt on your life at the start of the game is a good plot device to get you moving but turns into something else later on when you find that you were being driven out intentionally by the opposition.
+The characters that join your group have more dialogue than in the other games. They don't have personal quests that take you on a whole new adventure like the EE characters did in BG1 and BG2 but they have much more personality in this game. Minsc had a few lines that made me laugh out loud and I thought that Corwin was especially well integrated into the party. It felt totally natural to have her in the group.
+Starting out under Baldur's gate and filling in the info about Serevok's sword of chaos was a very nice touch. The overarching story of how you lost all of your gold from the original game was also a witty way of dealing with game balance. Last but not least, the linear nature of the game made the story more streamlined and powerful than the other games in the series. It felt like every 25 hours you would get a small snippit of story in the original Baldur's gate. Similar to TOB you have a constant story that is always on your mind and interfering with your adventuring on each map.
-I like that the dev's tried to give you an explanation of how Imoen was dual classed at the start of BG2 however I don't think this was handled as well as it could have been. Imoen is a level 10 thief at the end of BG1 and now she is a level 7 theif at the start of BG2. That makes no sense. Also, if you like to dual class her at level 7 in the first game the dialogue in SOD doesn't make sense all that well. Personally I think some sort of check should have been implemented to see if your imported save had a dual or single class Imoen and then had branching dialoge based on her class. I believe the idea that she is training with the grand dukes is a solid one and that it could have explained how her levels keep up with the main party even though she is missing. I believe the poison should have been a good enough excuse to keep her out of the party. The idea that she is not a good mage or thief because she is dueling is a witty excuse but it doesn't work out if you dueled her already and her levels simply don't add up in the end.
- I don't like that Duke Silvershild is alive. Yeah, WOTSC can say what they will. In BGEE he dies and I finished the game thinking he was dead for the last 15 years. Personally I don't like the whole idea of bringing people back from the dead. I always appreciated that Dynahair and Khalid were gone for good. It made it feel like you were really risking everything to survive. I could handle Servevok's return given the extreamly odd situation you have going on in hell in TOB but I really was annoyed to find the duke back.
I can tell the duke was brought back as a way to force you out of the city and make the Ski Silvershield sub blot work but I didn't like it. I liked the idea of Ski being a reliability during the campaign but I would have rather her been a rich celebrity type character in Baldur's gate who was running for grand duke in her fathers place and yet she was totally immature and ridiculous. Her death still would have caused a stink that the dukes of Baldur's Gate could have felt the need to push you out of the city before the dumb masses started a riot over the situation.
= As for the so called controversy at the game's launch, none of it mattered or effected the game in any meaningful way. Some decisions may have been handled better but I feel it was way overblown by a small, loud group of nerds.
SOUND:90/100
+The music for this game is good. The main theme is better than BG1 in my opinion and pretty close to BG2. The music while exploring the woods is fantastic and I really liked the creepy hell music at the end of the game. I felt like there were more catchy tunes in this game than in the others.
+ I got some pretty awesome surround effects in the wooded areas on my home theater system. I could hear tree's creaking from my rear speakers while wind was blowing in the front channels.
+ Sound effects are good, lots of variety and more solid low end on the some spells and music. No crackling on cut scenes or on powerful spells.
+ Voice actors returning for almost all of the major characters in the game. Not just Nostalgia, some of these guys and gals make the adventure more enjoyable.
= Some of the voice acting is really good and some is not. I really liked the commanders dialogue and voice acting throughout the game. A couple of characters have cringy performances. Belt may be explained but yeah, pretty bad.
GRAPHICS/ARTWORK: 85/100
I'm a big freak about graphics and I have a huge appreciation for pre-rendered backdrops. Especially these micro-machine style isometric games.
+New artwork that is excellent. I love the variety of tree's and the textures that were used for the ground in the underground areas looked like they could match Pillars Of Eternity at times.
+ New massive animations. I loved the maggots in the hell level as well as the lava river at the start of the game. The water effects in the underground river area were breathtaking and some nice lighting effects as well.
+ Character models are no longer pixelated. While a small amount of detail may have been lost, this brings the sprite models more in line with the non pixelated backgrounds and allows for a slightly more focused zoom than before while also making the overall image look superior. I used an external Darbee Darblit video enhancer on my TV that brought back much detail and made the backdrops look UHD sharp.
- Level of Detail was not consistent throughout the game. Some maps like the underground river, temple of Bhaal, and the hell map looked really detailed. Some of the larger woods maps looked blurry compared to Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. I remember leaving Athkatla and going to Rassad's temple finale in BG2EE and the blurriness of the map was very obvious. Things have improved in SOD and I think some of the maps are matching BG2 at times but it still looks lower resolution on some maps. I feel like Trademeet and the Elven city as well as the stone textures in Athkatla are still unmatched in terms of detail sharpness. Overall artwork makes SOD more enjoyable to look at then BG1 but I think BG2 has art that is as good and with more technical polish than SOD to the effects and a more consistent high level of detail in the game. SOD does have the nicest looking water effects in the trilogy.
- Torches that looked fantastic in BG2 look like they have been re-used which is fine but they look pixelated for some reason. I noticed fire fly's also looked pixelated and some of the smoke effects on the torches in hell were also pixelated. A green line appears in the moving river which tarnishes what should be one of the most beautiful pieces of scenery in the game. Torches also look pixelated in the original BG. Like the ones that were added to the friendly arm inn. They are nice and appreciated but surely a higher resolution could be used?
= The UI has nice dragon scale artwork that has a high resolution look to it. Some of the info placement is odd and the UI in general was not ready when the game shipped, boooo! The modding tools that have been released are fantastic. The SOD UI mod by the user "Pecca" is a favorite that I will probably use from now on. Widescreen inventory is a grand thing. In my opinion, Beamdog should take notes and do something like that while supporting upscaling and improved custom picture import options. I would like to see portrait customization for all characters in the party, in game if possible. Not just you main character.
GAMEPLAY: 88/100
+ The gameplay is varied and fun. Most of the encounters felt unique and interesting. Defending the camp was a cool setup and I appreciated that my decisions from earlier in the game would give me access to help from friends I had made.
+Classic 6 person RTS style gameplay and D&D character building.
+ Area design was great. I loved the mountain with the dragon in it. Finally bugbears have been included in the Baldur's Gate series!
+ "You have been ambushed and must defend yourself." The between area enounters are well done and fun to play. They also add little side detail to the world and story. Being tested by Irenicus and seeing the after math of his power were great additions.
+ It's only fitting that the game have some Icewind Dale influence given the story and I think pushing the full variety of gameplay that the infinity engine has to offer is a good thing.
- Difficulty that scales the number of enemies is a pretty good idea but it doesn't match up with the already existing games in the series. SOD in my opinion is far more difficult on Insane difficulty than BG1 and BG2 mainly.
- Icewind Dale Gameplay does have it's downsides. Both Icewind Dale and POE suffer from endless trash mobs that force you to abuse AOE wands over and over again at the higher difficulty levels. SOD now has that problem as well.
- LOB mode didn't work at launch. LOB difficulty seems ok for SOD but poorly balanced for BGEE.
(Rats that take 15 minutes to kill???)
(Standard hobgoblin can hit through -6 armor class every single round!?)
(Hundreds of Spells available but enemy saving throws are so high that most of them don't work!)
From what I hear, LOB difficulty drops off and is not all that challenging at the end of the series but I wouldn't know because I gave up on this mode. I am not saying it shouldn't be hard as hell but I would like the game to still be playable in a normal fashion that allows me to enjoy the spells, armor, and ambush tactics that all of the original difficulty modes had to offer. Perhaps it could use a little rebalancing at the start and possibly the end to make it more fun.
OVERALL SCORE: 87/100
+Overall the game captures the feeling and fun of the original games which are all gold standard classics.
+ Collector's Edition. Very expensive and taking it's time getting here but I very much appreciate the option to purchase a massive collectors edition of the first game with both expansion packs.
+ Solid story, art, music, voice acting.
OTHER THOUGHTS:
I like the artwork from Beamdog and the cutscenes are fine but I would like to see a return to character model CG for at least one or two cinematic scenes. Given 3 months, I could push out 3 minutes of cut-scenes using DAZ3D Studio for free on my home computer if I had access to the proper art assets for the game. Both BG1&2 as well as TOB had one CGI scene at the start and end of the game. I think the scene at the bridge where the symbol of Bhaal gets burned on the ground would have been awesome to see in a fully animated CG scene.
BEAMDOG, PLEASE MAKE ANOTHER EXPANSION LIKE THIS ONE FOR BALDUR'S GATE 2 SOA.
+The game has it's own story adventure that is solid and that takes place between the two games. This story also includes elements that bridge the gap between Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. In my opinion, the story has a hook at the end that is just as good as the Imoen child of bhaal reveal in BG2. Perhaps it is not as good as finding out that the man behind the iron shortage is also your brother and that you and he are both children of a dead god but it's pretty effective and ties Icewind dale and Baldur's Gate together in a way.
+The Shining Lady is not exactly a great villain because she is not supposed to be. She is your opposition but you can understand why she is doing what she does. You know why people follow her and at the end, you know she has been deceived and did not intend to endanger the sword coast or allow another demon attack. I thought she was one of the best characters in the trilogy. She is guilty of crimes and is no hero but I still understood her cause and respected her power. When the real enemy is revealed at the end it was very satisfying for me. If you have not played Icewind dale then maybe it would not have as much of an impact but I liked it.
+The adventure itself has a decent amount of detail written in to let you know why the flaming fist are doing what they are. The attempt on your life at the start of the game is a good plot device to get you moving but turns into something else later on when you find that you were being driven out intentionally by the opposition.
+The characters that join your group have more dialogue than in the other games. They don't have personal quests that take you on a whole new adventure like the EE characters did in BG1 and BG2 but they have much more personality in this game. Minsc had a few lines that made me laugh out loud and I thought that Corwin was especially well integrated into the party. It felt totally natural to have her in the group.
+Starting out under Baldur's gate and filling in the info about Serevok's sword of chaos was a very nice touch. The overarching story of how you lost all of your gold from the original game was also a witty way of dealing with game balance. Last but not least, the linear nature of the game made the story more streamlined and powerful than the other games in the series. It felt like every 25 hours you would get a small snippit of story in the original Baldur's gate. Similar to TOB you have a constant story that is always on your mind and interfering with your adventuring on each map.
-I like that the dev's tried to give you an explanation of how Imoen was dual classed at the start of BG2 however I don't think this was handled as well as it could have been. Imoen is a level 10 thief at the end of BG1 and now she is a level 7 theif at the start of BG2. That makes no sense. Also, if you like to dual class her at level 7 in the first game the dialogue in SOD doesn't make sense all that well. Personally I think some sort of check should have been implemented to see if your imported save had a dual or single class Imoen and then had branching dialoge based on her class. I believe the idea that she is training with the grand dukes is a solid one and that it could have explained how her levels keep up with the main party even though she is missing. I believe the poison should have been a good enough excuse to keep her out of the party. The idea that she is not a good mage or thief because she is dueling is a witty excuse but it doesn't work out if you dueled her already and her levels simply don't add up in the end.
- I don't like that Duke Silvershild is alive. Yeah, WOTSC can say what they will. In BGEE he dies and I finished the game thinking he was dead for the last 15 years. Personally I don't like the whole idea of bringing people back from the dead. I always appreciated that Dynahair and Khalid were gone for good. It made it feel like you were really risking everything to survive. I could handle Servevok's return given the extreamly odd situation you have going on in hell in TOB but I really was annoyed to find the duke back.
I can tell the duke was brought back as a way to force you out of the city and make the Ski Silvershield sub blot work but I didn't like it. I liked the idea of Ski being a reliability during the campaign but I would have rather her been a rich celebrity type character in Baldur's gate who was running for grand duke in her fathers place and yet she was totally immature and ridiculous. Her death still would have caused a stink that the dukes of Baldur's Gate could have felt the need to push you out of the city before the dumb masses started a riot over the situation.
= As for the so called controversy at the game's launch, none of it mattered or effected the game in any meaningful way. Some decisions may have been handled better but I feel it was way overblown by a small, loud group of nerds.
SOUND:90/100
+The music for this game is good. The main theme is better than BG1 in my opinion and pretty close to BG2. The music while exploring the woods is fantastic and I really liked the creepy hell music at the end of the game. I felt like there were more catchy tunes in this game than in the others.
+ I got some pretty awesome surround effects in the wooded areas on my home theater system. I could hear tree's creaking from my rear speakers while wind was blowing in the front channels.
+ Sound effects are good, lots of variety and more solid low end on the some spells and music. No crackling on cut scenes or on powerful spells.
+ Voice actors returning for almost all of the major characters in the game. Not just Nostalgia, some of these guys and gals make the adventure more enjoyable.
= Some of the voice acting is really good and some is not. I really liked the commanders dialogue and voice acting throughout the game. A couple of characters have cringy performances. Belt may be explained but yeah, pretty bad.
GRAPHICS/ARTWORK: 85/100
I'm a big freak about graphics and I have a huge appreciation for pre-rendered backdrops. Especially these micro-machine style isometric games.
+New artwork that is excellent. I love the variety of tree's and the textures that were used for the ground in the underground areas looked like they could match Pillars Of Eternity at times.
+ New massive animations. I loved the maggots in the hell level as well as the lava river at the start of the game. The water effects in the underground river area were breathtaking and some nice lighting effects as well.
+ Character models are no longer pixelated. While a small amount of detail may have been lost, this brings the sprite models more in line with the non pixelated backgrounds and allows for a slightly more focused zoom than before while also making the overall image look superior. I used an external Darbee Darblit video enhancer on my TV that brought back much detail and made the backdrops look UHD sharp.
- Level of Detail was not consistent throughout the game. Some maps like the underground river, temple of Bhaal, and the hell map looked really detailed. Some of the larger woods maps looked blurry compared to Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. I remember leaving Athkatla and going to Rassad's temple finale in BG2EE and the blurriness of the map was very obvious. Things have improved in SOD and I think some of the maps are matching BG2 at times but it still looks lower resolution on some maps. I feel like Trademeet and the Elven city as well as the stone textures in Athkatla are still unmatched in terms of detail sharpness. Overall artwork makes SOD more enjoyable to look at then BG1 but I think BG2 has art that is as good and with more technical polish than SOD to the effects and a more consistent high level of detail in the game. SOD does have the nicest looking water effects in the trilogy.
- Torches that looked fantastic in BG2 look like they have been re-used which is fine but they look pixelated for some reason. I noticed fire fly's also looked pixelated and some of the smoke effects on the torches in hell were also pixelated. A green line appears in the moving river which tarnishes what should be one of the most beautiful pieces of scenery in the game. Torches also look pixelated in the original BG. Like the ones that were added to the friendly arm inn. They are nice and appreciated but surely a higher resolution could be used?
= The UI has nice dragon scale artwork that has a high resolution look to it. Some of the info placement is odd and the UI in general was not ready when the game shipped, boooo! The modding tools that have been released are fantastic. The SOD UI mod by the user "Pecca" is a favorite that I will probably use from now on. Widescreen inventory is a grand thing. In my opinion, Beamdog should take notes and do something like that while supporting upscaling and improved custom picture import options. I would like to see portrait customization for all characters in the party, in game if possible. Not just you main character.
GAMEPLAY: 88/100
+ The gameplay is varied and fun. Most of the encounters felt unique and interesting. Defending the camp was a cool setup and I appreciated that my decisions from earlier in the game would give me access to help from friends I had made.
+Classic 6 person RTS style gameplay and D&D character building.
+ Area design was great. I loved the mountain with the dragon in it. Finally bugbears have been included in the Baldur's Gate series!
+ "You have been ambushed and must defend yourself." The between area enounters are well done and fun to play. They also add little side detail to the world and story. Being tested by Irenicus and seeing the after math of his power were great additions.
+ It's only fitting that the game have some Icewind Dale influence given the story and I think pushing the full variety of gameplay that the infinity engine has to offer is a good thing.
- Difficulty that scales the number of enemies is a pretty good idea but it doesn't match up with the already existing games in the series. SOD in my opinion is far more difficult on Insane difficulty than BG1 and BG2 mainly.
- Icewind Dale Gameplay does have it's downsides. Both Icewind Dale and POE suffer from endless trash mobs that force you to abuse AOE wands over and over again at the higher difficulty levels. SOD now has that problem as well.
- LOB mode didn't work at launch. LOB difficulty seems ok for SOD but poorly balanced for BGEE.
(Rats that take 15 minutes to kill???)
(Standard hobgoblin can hit through -6 armor class every single round!?)
(Hundreds of Spells available but enemy saving throws are so high that most of them don't work!)
From what I hear, LOB difficulty drops off and is not all that challenging at the end of the series but I wouldn't know because I gave up on this mode. I am not saying it shouldn't be hard as hell but I would like the game to still be playable in a normal fashion that allows me to enjoy the spells, armor, and ambush tactics that all of the original difficulty modes had to offer. Perhaps it could use a little rebalancing at the start and possibly the end to make it more fun.
OVERALL SCORE: 87/100
+Overall the game captures the feeling and fun of the original games which are all gold standard classics.
+ Collector's Edition. Very expensive and taking it's time getting here but I very much appreciate the option to purchase a massive collectors edition of the first game with both expansion packs.
+ Solid story, art, music, voice acting.
OTHER THOUGHTS:
I like the artwork from Beamdog and the cutscenes are fine but I would like to see a return to character model CG for at least one or two cinematic scenes. Given 3 months, I could push out 3 minutes of cut-scenes using DAZ3D Studio for free on my home computer if I had access to the proper art assets for the game. Both BG1&2 as well as TOB had one CGI scene at the start and end of the game. I think the scene at the bridge where the symbol of Bhaal gets burned on the ground would have been awesome to see in a fully animated CG scene.
BEAMDOG, PLEASE MAKE ANOTHER EXPANSION LIKE THIS ONE FOR BALDUR'S GATE 2 SOA.
Post edited by the_sextein on
5
Comments
But of course I am not sure if attempting to branch out away from the Bhaalspawn story might incur extra $$ to whatever par5ties out there who may hold some rights and interests in such matters ... that will be pretty sad X_X.
If she had been a popular Baldur's Gate celeb that was hoping to become a duke like her daddy and decided to join the fist in order to prove to the people that she was serious and willing to stand up for Baldur's Gate, things would have worked out all the same. She could have slowly progressed from a child into a serious character over the course of the game. You could find that the death of her brother and father had done some serious damage and maybe finding herself through battle would help her find her path in life. You could have watched her mature and become the hero she was posing as at the start of the game. Deep existential conversations could have been had around the camp at night.
Then her death would have been more gut wrenching than it was because she would have meant something to you and you would be taking the blame for it. Half of the gate would have freaked out because you just killed a celeb who was running for grand duke. The other dukes would still have a reason to force you out to avoid a riot and later on in one of the future games or expansion packs they still could have had a mission to recover the soul dagger . Your character would be more compelled to retrieve the dagger if someone he cared about was trapped in it.
Ultimately I understand the forgotten realms allow this sort of thing but I would rather avoid bringing people back from the dead. It cheapens the adventure in my opinion. If one of my party members die, I always restart. I can understand why it's possible from a gameplay perspective but I prefer it doesn't happen In the story itself.
I did feel Entar's resurrection was very hastily brushed under the carpet, given the plot significance of his death in BG1, and wanted some sense of importance to it. Or at least a reference that raising the dead is rare and generally only done for the wealthy and/or powerful.
I strongly object that. Yes, she was kind of deceived. But, first of all she wanted it so and also she is deceiving herself and most importantly everyone else. She is so full of Hybris, that even in her death, she deceives herself about what she has done.
There are like 8 of her followers slaughtered right before her eyes, in Avernus no less, and the only one she thinks about is herself and the supposed sacrifice she made and that "it was worth it".
Though I actually really liked that. Her uncle has to stay in hell and all the carnage and misery she brought upon the Swordcoast was all for nothing. All in vein. Classic greek tragedy stuff. Well done I say.
But I can't fathom that a lot of people seem to like her and view her as some kind of victim or so.
And understand her, well, I understand her as much as I understand Sarevok or Irenicus, but that doesn't mean I approve of their actions. But at least those two guys didn't deceive themselves about what they are doing and the consequences.
Nevertheless I agree with most of your other takes on SoD (excecpt for the IWD parts).
But yeah, she was being influenced by a demon and didn't realize it. She was deceived by her mage and got pissed but did stop herself from hurting her own men. They willingly went to hell with her though and they knew what they were getting into.
The screenshot above I have taken after the events unfolded as in your situation. She fought along side myself, but died eventually.
Remember also this:
And this in case she survived:
Her mentality is more akin to some suicidebomber. Yes, he/she knows that most likely innocent people will die, but ofc. it is "all worth it" and he/she only has to respond to some high and almighty authority.
she didn't want to quit when all she needed was to draw you out and hold off the armies until she could achieve her goals.
I am not saying your wrong, she does have a desperate sort of suicide bomber mentality but she doesn't seem like the classic villain like a Serevok or Irenicus. People who are pissed and hurt others for personal power.
Even her uncle disagrees with her. He is one actual Paladin, probably the best represention of the Paladin class, if Paladin=/=lawful studid. He understands the consequences. He does not approve of her actions. But unfortunately, when push comes to shove, he leaves Avernus with you, which is actually totally out of character (based on the few lines/things we know about him).
She comes pretty close to actually saying this when you meet her in Avernus for the first time. Her worldview is entirely centered on herself but it's a good one because she is good. Ofc it's tautology but that's the point.
I definitely consider her a villain, but still oddly compelling.
As for Beamdogs writing/storytelling, which I have criticised on other occasions
So I am also not really fond of the idea, to have her as a companion in BG2. Her fate, if she survives, has to be to rot in hell (well, at least for more then a few months)
at least some good came of the whole thing. If she dies and he is stuck anyway then everything is black.
Even after the problems with ski I really liked the last speech that your guide made to you when he leaves you at the sewers. It was nicely done. Embrace the void is another option you could choose. Maybe if you are in the mood that suits the situation. Never know. I can't say the same thing isn't happening now in the real world and it feels meaningless but it happens. That of course is for another conversation though.
Is it ok to murder someone if it will save 50 others? Is the loss of one life ok to save more lives? Is it ok to kill 50 people to save the life of 1? What makes one life worth more than the others? Is it ok to kill someone if they have done horrible things in their life? Killing 50 people to save 1 person that could save 100 people, is it ok? It's not clear cut and her mind was obviously attached to her uncle from a young age and she thought he was the very definition of honer and right. She didn't know that her blood was not going to work. She didn't know that she was going to have to draw the bhaalspawn out and fight a war with baldurs gate. She had come too far to turn back when she found out. oh well it was an interesting character and scenario.
I find this scenario interesting. You can either refuse murder under any circumstance or you can try to justify it. Once you have justified it you are a murderer to anyone that doesn't agree with your justification. Criminals are put to death, their deaths justified by "the system" their actions in life is the justification.
People are killed everyday in the real world, not for survival or to save the life of another. It's justified spiritually. Some would sacrifice a life to save the lives of many. Maybe none of the lives saved are as honorable and good as the one sacrificed. How can anyone make the judgment? This game also brings up the topic of torture in war. This was a hot button issue with the U.S. Government over the last decade. You have to justify horrible things or let even more horrible things happen. No matter the justification you will be unjustified in the eyes of many. To them you would be a murderer or torturer. You might save innocent people but no one can justify your actions but you and just because it is justified to you doesn't mean you are not evil in the eyes of everyone else. It's a slippery slope.
I don't think the shining lady has any self value. She knows she has fallen. She doesn't care that others may be tortured or killed because it is not her problem. She has justified her actions to save an honorable man and the people who joined her cause agree with her. The ones who don't agree with her are on your side and think she is evil and yet the armies you are working for torture people and kill the people that have willingly surrounded her. Everyone is justified and everyone is doing questionable things that they think are justified. In the end it always ends in a mess. Every person is capable of murder. Self defense or some other justification. Some justifications are more crazy than others. Self defense isn't considered murder because you have to draw the line somewhere. If you don't fight back or murder the murderers then they will murder all that is good in the world. By killing them you become a murderer. The only difference between a man or army that kills in self defense or in the name of right and a murderer is justification. Like the quote at the start of the first game. See to it that you don't become a monster. The abyss stares back at you.
You can take the high ground and only kill in self defense but you will be forced to kill either way. In a world like ours armies will come and self defense will no longer cut it. Some think sending an army to kill an entire nation is self defense. Some don't. The only people who don't have to kill others are ones that live in a society where select individuals do all of the killing for them. I consider myself lucky but who is to say that the men and women who do the killing to keep me safe are justified? I think sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. Some are paranoid and people do make mistakes and have mental problems ect. It's a pretty odd thing. At the start of the game you can question duke Eltan about his purpose for sending Baldur's gate to war. Is it because innocent families are being swallowed up by the crusade or is it the interference of business in Baldur's gate? I think this is a pretty important question to ask. War can be justified for many reasons. Sometimes business can be the rise and fall of a society. I do believe the shining lady is wrong and has done evil things. She says so herself but the game brings up some interesting points in my head.
She is intentionally lying to hundreds of people because she knows that if she is honest and says she is doing all of this to save one man, no one will follow her. She doesn't believe she could save anyone besides her uncle, but she doesn't feel she has done wrong in causing death along the Sword Coast, led countless crusaders to their deaths.
She's not killing in self defense and taking the moral high ground. She is actively seeking out a fight and killing as a result of that fight. And dragging along bystanders by lying and saying the fight is for a worthy cause.
I agree that she is using people's hope to gather them on her side. She doesn't know if any of their loved ones souls are retrievable or not and she doesn't care. She wants to lead an attack on hell and anyone who wants to risk their lives in the hopes of getting their loved ones back or just for revenge are free to follow her in. The only fight she is actively seeking out is the assault on hell. She has pillaged the land for resources for her army. That is what an army does.
Once she finds out that her blood will not work then she falls into war. At that point she was very close to her goal and I can see why she would be temped to continue on despite the loss of life. Especially considering her mindset. It is Waterdeep and Baldur'sgate that actually send their armies up to her with the intent of destroying her. I understand because her army was destroying families and farms in an attempt to sustain themselves. The only attacks the shinning lady ordered were on you at the start and your encampment at the end. Both times she attacked you it was to draw you to Dragonspear so she could use your blood.
1. Doing something for somebody else's benefit is certainly not evil, as it's not selfish. This rules out:
a. Lawful Evil
b. Neutral Evil
c. Chaotic Evil
3. Doing it at the expense of so many others is certainly not good, as it's not benevolent. This rules out:
a. Lawful Good
b. Neutral Good
c. Chaotic Good
3. Abiding by a strict personal code is certainly not chaotic. This rules out:
a. Chaotic Neutral
5. Breaking all other rules is certainly not lawful. This rules out:
a. Lawful Neutral
6. Being devoted to a specific calling, but not to maintaining the balance, is certainly not neutral. This rules out:
a. True Neutral (both interpretation, non-alignment and the druid philosophy)
I would use a different analogy. If I were already wet and told a bunch of toddlers to follow me into the deep end, knowing they would most likely drown, but I was already wet so it didn't matter to me, that is more in line with her actions.
And that seems a dangerous mindset that I've not really seen in other depictions of the lawful goody goody types: "I've already made one unintentional mistake that accidentally harmed one person so I might as well start making huge intentional mistakes which will harm hundreds" is not an appropriate mindset for anyone claiming to be doing good.
It's the fact that she can recognize all of this and still have no regrets in her actions and being willing to do it all over again which eliminates any possibility of my empathy for her. If she had been horrified by the results of her actions or regretted what she had done, I would have more sympathy for her.
Plus the fact that she so easily joins up with the Big Bad in the right circumstances doesn't help her case.
Considering the classic greek tragedy, the usual lesson to be learned from those stories, would be to be humble. Which someone, who calls herself "The shining Lady" and claims to be tasked by "the gods" clearly is not.
I think the ending dialogue allows you to support your own view of the shining lady and you can sort of choose your way to the conclusion that suits you best. For me, I like it when the shining lady completes her goal and pays for the evil path she took toward achieving it.
I tend to be apathetic towards sheep that follow people off cliffs or in this case, into the pits of hell itself. But I have a very slim line of tolerance and I consider it a personal character flaw of mine.
In any case, the point of my analogy was that someone who gets out of a pool cannot get more wet than they already are. You could pour a hundred buckets of water on them and they would not be anymore wet then they were when they got out of the pool. In the same vain, Caelar could kill another man or lead another thousand to their death and it wouldn't matter to her. Her soul is already unredeemable and her life is already lost, both in the eyes of her family and in her own eyes.
Most people that hit rock bottom like that will kill themselves but sometimes they will cling onto something in life and pursue it in a non logical, sometimes reckless manor. In her case, her family has the paladin trait of biting and never letting go and the only person in life that was empathetic toward her mistake was the one who's life was ruined by it. She swore to free him and did it at any cost. She was aware of her wrongs but she was beyond the point of caring. It makes sense to me and that is what I have taken away from it.
The reason I said in my review that I didn't think she was a great villain was simply to point out that she was a unique character that doesn't fit the typical villain trope.
One thing I noticed, and this is probably because of time and money restraints but I felt that the meeting with Caelar at dead mans pass was a bit of a let down. I liked the spoken lines that were delivered but I was hoping for more reactivity to your text choices.
For example, you could choose to leave the underground river after you set the barrel of boosh and never even sneak into Dragonspear basement. I would have loved to have additional lines to choose from that would let Caelar in on the fact that you caught her mage making deals with the devil. That would have been great, especially if it had an impact on the story progression at the end. You can mention that her wizard had made a deal with a dark druid but it leads to nowhere.
Do you think there is a lesson to be learned from her story? Other than the one I crudely outlined?
Some other points:
There are definitely some wasted opportunities. Most of all the encounter you mention. To add insult to injury, before the Bridgefort fight there is a cutscene, which ends with Caelar ordering her soldiers to „take them alive“. But they go for a kill instead. Someone made a video of it, which should still be available on utube. It's quite funny actually
Well and ofc. that you can not join the crusade, but constantly get the impression you could.
Also, I don't think that SoD is actually a good bridge between the two games. I've said it before in another topic, that I think to have open endings/beginnings is preferable to this weird explanation how you end up with the canon party.
Plus the whole Skie murder thingie just doesn't really seem to add up, which is a real shame, because that imho somewhat destroys the otherwise really well done expansion.
That is not always smart from a business standpoint but I am not running a business and tend to side with the "against the grain" mentality towards game development. To me, one of the biggest advantages of being an indie developer is that they can do what they want rather than what will make the most people happy.
I like a bunch of mainstream titles but they have all become niche over the years. Baldur's Gate and games like it were huge when I got into them but they are much more niche now than then. I think triple "A" game development was allowed to pursue much more niche topics and gameplay back then because not as much money was on the line. The mainstream masses were not taken into consideration back then. Now the mainstream game industry is almost a replica of Hollywood. Dumb action games that all feel and look the same from the same series every year for a decade or more. Remakes of popular games instead of new titles.
Even games that have new gameplay are usually pushed under an existing brand name. For example, splinter cell is no longer splintercell but the action games they release still say splintercell. The main character is younger and voiced by a different man. The gadgets are totally missing sometimes and the gameplay has switched from pure stealth to action with stealth elements. They should have just called it something else but the corporate overlords must bow to the almighty brand name.