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Review/Discussion and Thoughts (SOD {Spoilers})

the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
STORY: 86/100

+The game has it's own story adventure that is solid and that takes place between the two games. This story also includes elements that bridge the gap between Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. In my opinion, the story has a hook at the end that is just as good as the Imoen child of bhaal reveal in BG2. Perhaps it is not as good as finding out that the man behind the iron shortage is also your brother and that you and he are both children of a dead god but it's pretty effective and ties Icewind dale and Baldur's Gate together in a way.

+The Shining Lady is not exactly a great villain because she is not supposed to be. She is your opposition but you can understand why she is doing what she does. You know why people follow her and at the end, you know she has been deceived and did not intend to endanger the sword coast or allow another demon attack. I thought she was one of the best characters in the trilogy. She is guilty of crimes and is no hero but I still understood her cause and respected her power. When the real enemy is revealed at the end it was very satisfying for me. If you have not played Icewind dale then maybe it would not have as much of an impact but I liked it.

+The adventure itself has a decent amount of detail written in to let you know why the flaming fist are doing what they are. The attempt on your life at the start of the game is a good plot device to get you moving but turns into something else later on when you find that you were being driven out intentionally by the opposition.

+The characters that join your group have more dialogue than in the other games. They don't have personal quests that take you on a whole new adventure like the EE characters did in BG1 and BG2 but they have much more personality in this game. Minsc had a few lines that made me laugh out loud and I thought that Corwin was especially well integrated into the party. It felt totally natural to have her in the group.

+Starting out under Baldur's gate and filling in the info about Serevok's sword of chaos was a very nice touch. The overarching story of how you lost all of your gold from the original game was also a witty way of dealing with game balance. Last but not least, the linear nature of the game made the story more streamlined and powerful than the other games in the series. It felt like every 25 hours you would get a small snippit of story in the original Baldur's gate. Similar to TOB you have a constant story that is always on your mind and interfering with your adventuring on each map.

-I like that the dev's tried to give you an explanation of how Imoen was dual classed at the start of BG2 however I don't think this was handled as well as it could have been. Imoen is a level 10 thief at the end of BG1 and now she is a level 7 theif at the start of BG2. That makes no sense. Also, if you like to dual class her at level 7 in the first game the dialogue in SOD doesn't make sense all that well. Personally I think some sort of check should have been implemented to see if your imported save had a dual or single class Imoen and then had branching dialoge based on her class. I believe the idea that she is training with the grand dukes is a solid one and that it could have explained how her levels keep up with the main party even though she is missing. I believe the poison should have been a good enough excuse to keep her out of the party. The idea that she is not a good mage or thief because she is dueling is a witty excuse but it doesn't work out if you dueled her already and her levels simply don't add up in the end.

- I don't like that Duke Silvershild is alive. Yeah, WOTSC can say what they will. In BGEE he dies and I finished the game thinking he was dead for the last 15 years. Personally I don't like the whole idea of bringing people back from the dead. I always appreciated that Dynahair and Khalid were gone for good. It made it feel like you were really risking everything to survive. I could handle Servevok's return given the extreamly odd situation you have going on in hell in TOB but I really was annoyed to find the duke back.
I can tell the duke was brought back as a way to force you out of the city and make the Ski Silvershield sub blot work but I didn't like it. I liked the idea of Ski being a reliability during the campaign but I would have rather her been a rich celebrity type character in Baldur's gate who was running for grand duke in her fathers place and yet she was totally immature and ridiculous. Her death still would have caused a stink that the dukes of Baldur's Gate could have felt the need to push you out of the city before the dumb masses started a riot over the situation.

= As for the so called controversy at the game's launch, none of it mattered or effected the game in any meaningful way. Some decisions may have been handled better but I feel it was way overblown by a small, loud group of nerds.

SOUND:90/100

+The music for this game is good. The main theme is better than BG1 in my opinion and pretty close to BG2. The music while exploring the woods is fantastic and I really liked the creepy hell music at the end of the game. I felt like there were more catchy tunes in this game than in the others.

+ I got some pretty awesome surround effects in the wooded areas on my home theater system. I could hear tree's creaking from my rear speakers while wind was blowing in the front channels.

+ Sound effects are good, lots of variety and more solid low end on the some spells and music. No crackling on cut scenes or on powerful spells.

+ Voice actors returning for almost all of the major characters in the game. Not just Nostalgia, some of these guys and gals make the adventure more enjoyable.

= Some of the voice acting is really good and some is not. I really liked the commanders dialogue and voice acting throughout the game. A couple of characters have cringy performances. Belt may be explained but yeah, pretty bad.

GRAPHICS/ARTWORK: 85/100

I'm a big freak about graphics and I have a huge appreciation for pre-rendered backdrops. Especially these micro-machine style isometric games.

+New artwork that is excellent. I love the variety of tree's and the textures that were used for the ground in the underground areas looked like they could match Pillars Of Eternity at times.

+ New massive animations. I loved the maggots in the hell level as well as the lava river at the start of the game. The water effects in the underground river area were breathtaking and some nice lighting effects as well.

+ Character models are no longer pixelated. While a small amount of detail may have been lost, this brings the sprite models more in line with the non pixelated backgrounds and allows for a slightly more focused zoom than before while also making the overall image look superior. I used an external Darbee Darblit video enhancer on my TV that brought back much detail and made the backdrops look UHD sharp.

- Level of Detail was not consistent throughout the game. Some maps like the underground river, temple of Bhaal, and the hell map looked really detailed. Some of the larger woods maps looked blurry compared to Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. I remember leaving Athkatla and going to Rassad's temple finale in BG2EE and the blurriness of the map was very obvious. Things have improved in SOD and I think some of the maps are matching BG2 at times but it still looks lower resolution on some maps. I feel like Trademeet and the Elven city as well as the stone textures in Athkatla are still unmatched in terms of detail sharpness. Overall artwork makes SOD more enjoyable to look at then BG1 but I think BG2 has art that is as good and with more technical polish than SOD to the effects and a more consistent high level of detail in the game. SOD does have the nicest looking water effects in the trilogy.

- Torches that looked fantastic in BG2 look like they have been re-used which is fine but they look pixelated for some reason. I noticed fire fly's also looked pixelated and some of the smoke effects on the torches in hell were also pixelated. A green line appears in the moving river which tarnishes what should be one of the most beautiful pieces of scenery in the game. Torches also look pixelated in the original BG. Like the ones that were added to the friendly arm inn. They are nice and appreciated but surely a higher resolution could be used?

= The UI has nice dragon scale artwork that has a high resolution look to it. Some of the info placement is odd and the UI in general was not ready when the game shipped, boooo! The modding tools that have been released are fantastic. The SOD UI mod by the user "Pecca" is a favorite that I will probably use from now on. Widescreen inventory is a grand thing. In my opinion, Beamdog should take notes and do something like that while supporting upscaling and improved custom picture import options. I would like to see portrait customization for all characters in the party, in game if possible. Not just you main character.

GAMEPLAY: 88/100

+ The gameplay is varied and fun. Most of the encounters felt unique and interesting. Defending the camp was a cool setup and I appreciated that my decisions from earlier in the game would give me access to help from friends I had made.

+Classic 6 person RTS style gameplay and D&D character building.

+ Area design was great. I loved the mountain with the dragon in it. Finally bugbears have been included in the Baldur's Gate series!

+ "You have been ambushed and must defend yourself." The between area enounters are well done and fun to play. They also add little side detail to the world and story. Being tested by Irenicus and seeing the after math of his power were great additions.

+ It's only fitting that the game have some Icewind Dale influence given the story and I think pushing the full variety of gameplay that the infinity engine has to offer is a good thing.

- Difficulty that scales the number of enemies is a pretty good idea but it doesn't match up with the already existing games in the series. SOD in my opinion is far more difficult on Insane difficulty than BG1 and BG2 mainly.

- Icewind Dale Gameplay does have it's downsides. Both Icewind Dale and POE suffer from endless trash mobs that force you to abuse AOE wands over and over again at the higher difficulty levels. SOD now has that problem as well.

- LOB mode didn't work at launch. LOB difficulty seems ok for SOD but poorly balanced for BGEE.
(Rats that take 15 minutes to kill???)
(Standard hobgoblin can hit through -6 armor class every single round!?)
(Hundreds of Spells available but enemy saving throws are so high that most of them don't work!)
From what I hear, LOB difficulty drops off and is not all that challenging at the end of the series but I wouldn't know because I gave up on this mode. I am not saying it shouldn't be hard as hell but I would like the game to still be playable in a normal fashion that allows me to enjoy the spells, armor, and ambush tactics that all of the original difficulty modes had to offer. Perhaps it could use a little rebalancing at the start and possibly the end to make it more fun.


OVERALL SCORE: 87/100

+Overall the game captures the feeling and fun of the original games which are all gold standard classics.
+ Collector's Edition. Very expensive and taking it's time getting here but I very much appreciate the option to purchase a massive collectors edition of the first game with both expansion packs.
+ Solid story, art, music, voice acting.

OTHER THOUGHTS:

I like the artwork from Beamdog and the cutscenes are fine but I would like to see a return to character model CG for at least one or two cinematic scenes. Given 3 months, I could push out 3 minutes of cut-scenes using DAZ3D Studio for free on my home computer if I had access to the proper art assets for the game. Both BG1&2 as well as TOB had one CGI scene at the start and end of the game. I think the scene at the bridge where the symbol of Bhaal gets burned on the ground would have been awesome to see in a fully animated CG scene.

BEAMDOG, PLEASE MAKE ANOTHER EXPANSION LIKE THIS ONE FOR BALDUR'S GATE 2 SOA.
Post edited by the_sextein on
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Comments

  • BubblesBubbles Member Posts: 589
    Actually, I would prefer Beamdog to come up with mortals tasked to go and rescue that naughty little Argent (her uncle probably will be the one most ideal to employ such a party) rather than asking Charname to do so (Bhaalspawns are so busy with other godly stuffs you know ^^).
    But of course I am not sure if attempting to branch out away from the Bhaalspawn story might incur extra $$ to whatever par5ties out there who may hold some rights and interests in such matters ... that will be pretty sad X_X.
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    I can't imagine a campaign where your ultimate goal is to find Ski Silvershield. That would be an anticlimactic ending lol. Possibly a mission in a game or something would be more appropriate I would think.

    If she had been a popular Baldur's Gate celeb that was hoping to become a duke like her daddy and decided to join the fist in order to prove to the people that she was serious and willing to stand up for Baldur's Gate, things would have worked out all the same. She could have slowly progressed from a child into a serious character over the course of the game. You could find that the death of her brother and father had done some serious damage and maybe finding herself through battle would help her find her path in life. You could have watched her mature and become the hero she was posing as at the start of the game. Deep existential conversations could have been had around the camp at night.

    Then her death would have been more gut wrenching than it was because she would have meant something to you and you would be taking the blame for it. Half of the gate would have freaked out because you just killed a celeb who was running for grand duke. The other dukes would still have a reason to force you out to avoid a riot and later on in one of the future games or expansion packs they still could have had a mission to recover the soul dagger . Your character would be more compelled to retrieve the dagger if someone he cared about was trapped in it.

    Ultimately I understand the forgotten realms allow this sort of thing but I would rather avoid bringing people back from the dead. It cheapens the adventure in my opinion. If one of my party members die, I always restart. I can understand why it's possible from a gameplay perspective but I prefer it doesn't happen In the story itself.
    Post edited by the_sextein on
    Vbibbi
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    I hadn't really considered the impact Entar's death and resurrection would have on Skie, but I agree. I think that should have been an important part of her characterization and motivation to make a change in the world. I suppose it is, but via headcanon rather than explicit source material.

    I did feel Entar's resurrection was very hastily brushed under the carpet, given the plot significance of his death in BG1, and wanted some sense of importance to it. Or at least a reference that raising the dead is rare and generally only done for the wealthy and/or powerful.
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2016


    +The Shining Lady is not exactly a great villain because she is not supposed to be. She is your opposition but you can understand why she is doing what she does. You know why people follow her and at the end, you know she has been deceived and did not intend to endanger the sword coast or allow another demon attack. I thought she was one of the best characters in the trilogy. She is guilty of crimes and is no hero but I still understood her cause and respected her power. When the real enemy is revealed at the end it was very satisfying for me. If you have not played Icewind dale then maybe it would not have as much of an impact but I liked it.


    I strongly object that. Yes, she was kind of deceived. But, first of all she wanted it so and also she is deceiving herself and most importantly everyone else. She is so full of Hybris, that even in her death, she deceives herself about what she has done.



    There are like 8 of her followers slaughtered right before her eyes, in Avernus no less, and the only one she thinks about is herself and the supposed sacrifice she made and that "it was worth it".



    Though I actually really liked that. Her uncle has to stay in hell and all the carnage and misery she brought upon the Swordcoast was all for nothing. All in vein. Classic greek tragedy stuff. Well done I say.



    But I can't fathom that a lot of people seem to like her and view her as some kind of victim or so.
    And understand her, well, I understand her as much as I understand Sarevok or Irenicus, but that doesn't mean I approve of their actions. But at least those two guys didn't deceive themselves about what they are doing and the consequences.

    Nevertheless I agree with most of your other takes on SoD (excecpt for the IWD parts).
    Vbibbisemiticgoddess
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    In my game I asked her to redeem herself by fighting by my side, she fought alongside me in the final boss fight and survived the encounter. She admitted that she deserved to be punished by the flaming fist and others but decided to stay behind so you could escape with her uncle. ( A punishment far worse than the fist could give her.) Yes she was willing to hurt others to save her uncle but she was trying to gather people like herself that had lost family and friends in those attacks and were willingly going to hell to try and bring them back with her. It was the involvement of the fist and others that brought war and she continued on regardless of the lives lost which was wrong but I could empathize since her goal was so close and she found out that she needed you since her blood was deluded.

    But yeah, she was being influenced by a demon and didn't realize it. She was deceived by her mage and got pissed but did stop herself from hurting her own men. They willingly went to hell with her though and they knew what they were getting into.
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    Nononono...

    The screenshot above I have taken after the events unfolded as in your situation. She fought along side myself, but died eventually.

    Remember also this:


    And this in case she survived:



    Her mentality is more akin to some suicidebomber. Yes, he/she knows that most likely innocent people will die, but ofc. it is "all worth it" and he/she only has to respond to some high and almighty authority.
    the_sexteinsemiticgoddess
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    She admits that she did evil though. I said before she is no hero. All I am saying is she doesn't seem like a real villain at least to me because I could see where she was coming from and the real source of the problem was with the demon. It depends on how you played it I guess. The choices I made when talking to them didn't paint the picture of a super villain but rather a confused person that would rather cause death and destruction than let go of her loved ones. She obviously felt guilt at summoning the demon as a child and causing the loss of her uncle. It probably drove her mad until she no longer cared. She admitted that she deserved punishment for the death and destruction and chose to pay the price by staying in hell when I won the game.
    semiticgoddess
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    I believe her main goal was to storm the hells and take her uncle back. She was going to do it with people who wanted to go so they could help their own friends and family. She didn't know that the her wizard was going to open a portal and leave it open for the demons to escape and do damage once again. She decided to let people die once the war started because she found out she couldn't achieve her goals and needed your blood. She was wrong to do that but I can see why she would be willing afterall of her personal sacrifices and all the time and trouble she went though.
    she didn't want to quit when all she needed was to draw you out and hold off the armies until she could achieve her goals.

    I am not saying your wrong, she does have a desperate sort of suicide bomber mentality but she doesn't seem like the classic villain like a Serevok or Irenicus. People who are pissed and hurt others for personal power.
    semiticgoddess
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    I personally think that because she admits that she did evil, but is unrepentant about it and says she would do it all again, she fits the villain title. Not even redeemed villain, just a defeated villain willing to do some final good. She would be redeemed if she actually felt remorse at her actions or tried to undo some of the bad that she's done. She doesn't, she just wants to make sure that her uncle survives, the same as before.
    semiticgoddessthe_sexteinKampfKaninchen
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    Hmmm...well I hope you don't perceive me trying to "catch you" or starting some pitfight, since that's not my intention, I am just really surprised that so many people see Caelar as "innocent" and her justification for her actions was sufficient; all the while not realizing the tremondous Hybris.

    Even her uncle disagrees with her. He is one actual Paladin, probably the best represention of the Paladin class, if Paladin=/=lawful studid. He understands the consequences. He does not approve of her actions. But unfortunately, when push comes to shove, he leaves Avernus with you, which is actually totally out of character (based on the few lines/things we know about him).
    the_sextein
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    Nah, I know you are just speaking your piece and I agree somewhat. I see her as having done evil and having done the evil thinking that the good she did outweighed the evil she did. The good she did wasn't able to outweigh the evil that she did but in her single minded lifelong goal to bring her uncle back it probably seemed like it did to her. That is why she said she would do it all again. She is wrong but it's not the same as a villain like the demon or her wizard or any of the other villain characters in the trilogy that just want power and care little for anyone else. I think she is a great character for that reason. A Fallen Paladin. Still chained by honor and yet twisted. Maybe she is a villain but I don't consider her a really good one. She is a great character but I had a hard time being mad at her or wanting revenge on her. I even respected some of her actions at the end and could understand her flawed mindset even though I didn't agree with it.
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    I think Caelar's biggest issue is that she has such an inflated sense of self-importance she can't possibly register that her uncle is not the most important person ever. He's the most important to her, so of course he is worth the mountain of corpses it takes to free him. Her followers should be glad they died for such a great person. Other people just don't get it.

    She comes pretty close to actually saying this when you meet her in Avernus for the first time. Her worldview is entirely centered on herself but it's a good one because she is good. Ofc it's tautology but that's the point.

    I definitely consider her a villain, but still oddly compelling.
    KampfKaninchenthe_sexteinVbibbi
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    Ah, okay, we don't disagree on that, she is most definitely different from the other villains. Just IMHO not in a more likeable way per se.

    As for Beamdogs writing/storytelling, which I have criticised on other occasions o:) , I think in this situation it was really, really well done, if Caelar dies in the final fight, that is.

    So I am also not really fond of the idea, to have her as a companion in BG2. Her fate, if she survives, has to be to rot in hell (well, at least for more then a few months)
    the_sexteinVbibbi
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    For sure, I wouldn't want her in my party in BG2. She is going to burn for her sins and she is doing so willingly. I am just glad her uncle can leave hell. Sure she got what she wanted but everything would have been a waste otherwise. I was happy to see that an honest and good paladin got his freedom back.
    at least some good came of the whole thing. If she dies and he is stuck anyway then everything is black.
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139


    at least some good came of the whole thing. If she dies and he is stuck anyway then everything is black.

    But that is exactly the charm of it. The realisition, that everything was totally meaningless. Embrace the void. ;)

    the_sextein
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    That is another good thing about the writing. You can give the game different meanings and have different outcomes based on your dialogue choices. I like when she lives. This allows her threat to be stopped and her to pay for her crimes while freeing her uncle who is innocent and allowing you to go back to the gate with the threat of the shinning lady done and gone. A hero.

    Even after the problems with ski I really liked the last speech that your guide made to you when he leaves you at the sewers. It was nicely done. Embrace the void is another option you could choose. Maybe if you are in the mood that suits the situation. Never know. I can't say the same thing isn't happening now in the real world and it feels meaningless but it happens. That of course is for another conversation though.
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    Kurona said:

    I think Caelar's biggest issue is that she has such an inflated sense of self-importance she can't possibly register that her uncle is not the most important person ever. He's the most important to her, so of course he is worth the mountain of corpses it takes to free him. Her followers should be glad they died for such a great person. Other people just don't get it.

    She comes pretty close to actually saying this when you meet her in Avernus for the first time. Her worldview is entirely centered on herself but it's a good one because she is good. Ofc it's tautology but that's the point.

    I definitely consider her a villain, but still oddly compelling.

    I'm not sure I agree. I think she knew she was going to stay behind and die in hell from the start. I don't think she cared about her own life or anyone else's. She felt that the death of others was justified because the life she was saving was above the lives of others.

    Is it ok to murder someone if it will save 50 others? Is the loss of one life ok to save more lives? Is it ok to kill 50 people to save the life of 1? What makes one life worth more than the others? Is it ok to kill someone if they have done horrible things in their life? Killing 50 people to save 1 person that could save 100 people, is it ok? It's not clear cut and her mind was obviously attached to her uncle from a young age and she thought he was the very definition of honer and right. She didn't know that her blood was not going to work. She didn't know that she was going to have to draw the bhaalspawn out and fight a war with baldurs gate. She had come too far to turn back when she found out. oh well it was an interesting character and scenario.

    I find this scenario interesting. You can either refuse murder under any circumstance or you can try to justify it. Once you have justified it you are a murderer to anyone that doesn't agree with your justification. Criminals are put to death, their deaths justified by "the system" their actions in life is the justification.

    People are killed everyday in the real world, not for survival or to save the life of another. It's justified spiritually. Some would sacrifice a life to save the lives of many. Maybe none of the lives saved are as honorable and good as the one sacrificed. How can anyone make the judgment? This game also brings up the topic of torture in war. This was a hot button issue with the U.S. Government over the last decade. You have to justify horrible things or let even more horrible things happen. No matter the justification you will be unjustified in the eyes of many. To them you would be a murderer or torturer. You might save innocent people but no one can justify your actions but you and just because it is justified to you doesn't mean you are not evil in the eyes of everyone else. It's a slippery slope.

    I don't think the shining lady has any self value. She knows she has fallen. She doesn't care that others may be tortured or killed because it is not her problem. She has justified her actions to save an honorable man and the people who joined her cause agree with her. The ones who don't agree with her are on your side and think she is evil and yet the armies you are working for torture people and kill the people that have willingly surrounded her. Everyone is justified and everyone is doing questionable things that they think are justified. In the end it always ends in a mess. Every person is capable of murder. Self defense or some other justification. Some justifications are more crazy than others. Self defense isn't considered murder because you have to draw the line somewhere. If you don't fight back or murder the murderers then they will murder all that is good in the world. By killing them you become a murderer. The only difference between a man or army that kills in self defense or in the name of right and a murderer is justification. Like the quote at the start of the first game. See to it that you don't become a monster. The abyss stares back at you.

    You can take the high ground and only kill in self defense but you will be forced to kill either way. In a world like ours armies will come and self defense will no longer cut it. Some think sending an army to kill an entire nation is self defense. Some don't. The only people who don't have to kill others are ones that live in a society where select individuals do all of the killing for them. I consider myself lucky but who is to say that the men and women who do the killing to keep me safe are justified? I think sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. Some are paranoid and people do make mistakes and have mental problems ect. It's a pretty odd thing. At the start of the game you can question duke Eltan about his purpose for sending Baldur's gate to war. Is it because innocent families are being swallowed up by the crusade or is it the interference of business in Baldur's gate? I think this is a pretty important question to ask. War can be justified for many reasons. Sometimes business can be the rise and fall of a society. I do believe the shining lady is wrong and has done evil things. She says so herself but the game brings up some interesting points in my head.
    Post edited by the_sextein on
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    If she were at least honest in her goals and intentions to her followers, I would have more sympathy for her. But she knowingly and intentionally lies to them to achieve her goals. She pretends that she is going to be freeing the souls of those lost in Avernus and that's a huge reason why she has so many following her. The crusaders haven't all lost family or friends to Avernus but many believe in her cause of freeing innocent souls. We see this throughout SoD.

    She is intentionally lying to hundreds of people because she knows that if she is honest and says she is doing all of this to save one man, no one will follow her. She doesn't believe she could save anyone besides her uncle, but she doesn't feel she has done wrong in causing death along the Sword Coast, led countless crusaders to their deaths.

    She's not killing in self defense and taking the moral high ground. She is actively seeking out a fight and killing as a result of that fight. And dragging along bystanders by lying and saying the fight is for a worthy cause.
    semiticgoddessKurona
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    I don't have any sympathy for her. I just think it's easy to see where she it coming from, I can empathize with her situation. That doesn't mean I agree with it. If you just pulled yourself out of a swimming pool with your clothes on you are not going to care if it rains or if someone splashes you. In the same way she doesn't care if she kills 1 or 1000 people because her honor and her soul were lost ever since she ruined her uncle and she was disowned by her own family at the age of 9. Her soul is soaked so to speak. When she says that she has lived her life by the highest of standards, she is talking about her oath to save her uncle. She comes from a family of paladins who swear an ironclad oath and never break on their commitments. She says at the end that she has done many evil deeds and deserves to be punished so I don't see how you guys can think that she is stuck up, self important, and thinks her family can do no wrong. She doesn't think she is above the law and she has no self importance. She doesn't care about her own life and proves it at the end.

    I agree that she is using people's hope to gather them on her side. She doesn't know if any of their loved ones souls are retrievable or not and she doesn't care. She wants to lead an attack on hell and anyone who wants to risk their lives in the hopes of getting their loved ones back or just for revenge are free to follow her in. The only fight she is actively seeking out is the assault on hell. She has pillaged the land for resources for her army. That is what an army does.

    Once she finds out that her blood will not work then she falls into war. At that point she was very close to her goal and I can see why she would be temped to continue on despite the loss of life. Especially considering her mindset. It is Waterdeep and Baldur'sgate that actually send their armies up to her with the intent of destroying her. I understand because her army was destroying families and farms in an attempt to sustain themselves. The only attacks the shinning lady ordered were on you at the start and your encampment at the end. Both times she attacked you it was to draw you to Dragonspear so she could use your blood.
    Post edited by the_sextein on
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    The closest character I could compare the shinning lady to is Timoko from BG1. Timoko has a noble goal of bringing out the good in Serevok. Her ideals cannot be accomplished because Serevok would not listen. In the end she sides with evil because of love. Her love of Serevok causes her to fight for him even though she knows he is evil, she thinks she can change him. Some people have noble goals and good intentions but they make sacrifices and justifications that the majority do not agree with so they are considered wrong and evil. That is the way it goes. Whoever loses the battle is always the one that was wrong and evil in the history books. The only distinction that tells true good from evil is the core of the side you choose and it can be masked pretty well. Tomoko is not evil in my eyes but she chose to stand for evil thanks to the good in her heart so she will suffer the same fate as the evil people she embraces and rightfully so.
    Post edited by the_sextein on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Caelar's motives don't fit any alignment. I think this is an interesting detail here.

    1. Doing something for somebody else's benefit is certainly not evil, as it's not selfish. This rules out:
    a. Lawful Evil
    b. Neutral Evil
    c. Chaotic Evil


    3. Doing it at the expense of so many others is certainly not good, as it's not benevolent. This rules out:
    a. Lawful Good
    b. Neutral Good
    c. Chaotic Good


    3. Abiding by a strict personal code is certainly not chaotic. This rules out:
    a. Chaotic Neutral

    5. Breaking all other rules is certainly not lawful. This rules out:
    a. Lawful Neutral

    6. Being devoted to a specific calling, but not to maintaining the balance, is certainly not neutral. This rules out:
    a. True Neutral (both interpretation, non-alignment and the druid philosophy)
    the_sextein
  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Even strict followers of alignment are often subject to fatal lapses in judgment. Caelar is deluded and irrational, but definitely Lawful Good. Besides, it's her folly that led to Aun being sentenced to Avernus so in her perspective she's obligated to save him, no matter the cost. Of course she's wrong, very wrong, but it's not totally against the LG mentality.
    semiticgoddessthe_sextein
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229

    I don't have any sympathy for her. I just think it's easy to see where she it coming from, I can empathize with her situation. That doesn't mean I agree with it. If you just pulled yourself out of a swimming pool with your clothes on you are not going to care if it rains or if someone splashes you. In the same way she doesn't care if she kills 1 or 1000 people because her honor and her soul were lost ever since she ruined her uncle and she was disowned by her own family at the age of 9. Her soul is soaked so to speak. When she says that she has lived her life by the highest of standards, she is talking about her oath to save her uncle. She comes from a family of paladins who swear an ironclad oath and never break on their commitments. She says at the end that she has done many evil deeds and deserves to be punished so I don't see how you guys can think that she is stuck up, self important, and thinks her family can do no wrong. She doesn't think she is above the law and she has no self importance. She doesn't care about her own life and proves it at the end.

    I agree that she is using people's hope to gather them on her side. She doesn't know if any of their loved ones souls are retrievable or not and she doesn't care. She wants to lead an attack on hell and anyone who wants to risk their lives in the hopes of getting their loved ones back or just for revenge are free to follow her in. The only fight she is actively seeking out is the assault on hell. She has pillaged the land for resources for her army. That is what an army does.

    Once she finds out that her blood will not work then she falls into war. At that point she was very close to her goal and I can see why she would be temped to continue on despite the loss of life. Especially considering her mindset. It is Waterdeep and Baldur'sgate that actually send their armies up to her with the intent of destroying her. I understand because her army was destroying families and farms in an attempt to sustain themselves. The only attacks the shinning lady ordered were on you at the start and your encampment at the end. Both times she attacked you it was to draw you to Dragonspear so she could use your blood.

    But already being soaked and then not being bothered about getting any wetter doesn't affect anyone but yourself and is not harmful, except for the chance of catching cold.

    I would use a different analogy. If I were already wet and told a bunch of toddlers to follow me into the deep end, knowing they would most likely drown, but I was already wet so it didn't matter to me, that is more in line with her actions.

    And that seems a dangerous mindset that I've not really seen in other depictions of the lawful goody goody types: "I've already made one unintentional mistake that accidentally harmed one person so I might as well start making huge intentional mistakes which will harm hundreds" is not an appropriate mindset for anyone claiming to be doing good.

    It's the fact that she can recognize all of this and still have no regrets in her actions and being willing to do it all over again which eliminates any possibility of my empathy for her. If she had been horrified by the results of her actions or regretted what she had done, I would have more sympathy for her.

    Plus the fact that she so easily joins up with the Big Bad in the right circumstances doesn't help her case.
    the_sextein
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    Yap....though you could argue, that by embracing Belhifet, she comes to terms with herself. Still it's a bit too sudden and fastpaced.

    Considering the classic greek tragedy, the usual lesson to be learned from those stories, would be to be humble. Which someone, who calls herself "The shining Lady" and claims to be tasked by "the gods" clearly is not.
    the_sexteinVbibbi
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    Personally, I'm glad that you guys came away with a different view than I did. I can see where you guys are coming from and I like a bit of conversation about the game in general. Believe me, I am no stranger to apathetic or nihilistic thoughts but my mind didn't react in that way towards this character or the story in general.

    I think the ending dialogue allows you to support your own view of the shining lady and you can sort of choose your way to the conclusion that suits you best. For me, I like it when the shining lady completes her goal and pays for the evil path she took toward achieving it.

    I tend to be apathetic towards sheep that follow people off cliffs or in this case, into the pits of hell itself. But I have a very slim line of tolerance and I consider it a personal character flaw of mine.

    In any case, the point of my analogy was that someone who gets out of a pool cannot get more wet than they already are. You could pour a hundred buckets of water on them and they would not be anymore wet then they were when they got out of the pool. In the same vain, Caelar could kill another man or lead another thousand to their death and it wouldn't matter to her. Her soul is already unredeemable and her life is already lost, both in the eyes of her family and in her own eyes.

    Most people that hit rock bottom like that will kill themselves but sometimes they will cling onto something in life and pursue it in a non logical, sometimes reckless manor. In her case, her family has the paladin trait of biting and never letting go and the only person in life that was empathetic toward her mistake was the one who's life was ruined by it. She swore to free him and did it at any cost. She was aware of her wrongs but she was beyond the point of caring. It makes sense to me and that is what I have taken away from it.

    The reason I said in my review that I didn't think she was a great villain was simply to point out that she was a unique character that doesn't fit the typical villain trope.
    Vbibbi
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    There is much more to discuss than Caelar. Do you have any differing views on any of my other points? Do you guys think that the game delivered? What about missed opportunities?

    One thing I noticed, and this is probably because of time and money restraints but I felt that the meeting with Caelar at dead mans pass was a bit of a let down. I liked the spoken lines that were delivered but I was hoping for more reactivity to your text choices.

    For example, you could choose to leave the underground river after you set the barrel of boosh and never even sneak into Dragonspear basement. I would have loved to have additional lines to choose from that would let Caelar in on the fact that you caught her mage making deals with the devil. That would have been great, especially if it had an impact on the story progression at the end. You can mention that her wizard had made a deal with a dark druid but it leads to nowhere.
    Post edited by the_sextein on
    Vbibbi
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2016
    Your characterisation of Caelar is quite interesting and well put, but I don't think it actually contradicts the hybris at play here. That's also what makes her an interesting villain.
    Do you think there is a lesson to be learned from her story? Other than the one I crudely outlined?

    Some other points:
    There are definitely some wasted opportunities. Most of all the encounter you mention. To add insult to injury, before the Bridgefort fight there is a cutscene, which ends with Caelar ordering her soldiers to „take them alive“. But they go for a kill instead. Someone made a video of it, which should still be available on utube. It's quite funny actually ;)

    Well and ofc. that you can not join the crusade, but constantly get the impression you could.

    Also, I don't think that SoD is actually a good bridge between the two games. I've said it before in another topic, that I think to have open endings/beginnings is preferable to this weird explanation how you end up with the canon party.
    Plus the whole Skie murder thingie just doesn't really seem to add up, which is a real shame, because that imho somewhat destroys the otherwise really well done expansion.
    the_sexteinVbibbi
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    I don't know, like I was saying before, It seems like the various text options can lean to support many interests. Almost like they were trying to allow everyone to pick a conclusion that makes them the most happy rather than push a lesson or moral on the audience. I don't mind but I also respect when a writer has something to say and pushes it out regardless of how the majority will react.

    That is not always smart from a business standpoint but I am not running a business and tend to side with the "against the grain" mentality towards game development. To me, one of the biggest advantages of being an indie developer is that they can do what they want rather than what will make the most people happy.

    I like a bunch of mainstream titles but they have all become niche over the years. Baldur's Gate and games like it were huge when I got into them but they are much more niche now than then. I think triple "A" game development was allowed to pursue much more niche topics and gameplay back then because not as much money was on the line. The mainstream masses were not taken into consideration back then. Now the mainstream game industry is almost a replica of Hollywood. Dumb action games that all feel and look the same from the same series every year for a decade or more. Remakes of popular games instead of new titles.

    Even games that have new gameplay are usually pushed under an existing brand name. For example, splinter cell is no longer splintercell but the action games they release still say splintercell. The main character is younger and voiced by a different man. The gadgets are totally missing sometimes and the gameplay has switched from pure stealth to action with stealth elements. They should have just called it something else but the corporate overlords must bow to the almighty brand name.
    Vbibbi
  • KampfKaninchenKampfKaninchen Member Posts: 139
    OT: Bad Religion fan or is "against the grain" a common expression? ;)
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2016
    ha ha, I am aware of Bad Religion but no I was using "against the grain" as an expression for art that breaks away from pop culture.
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