[Spoilers] My take on the new expansion - from someone who played BG since original release
Daeros_Trollkiller
Member Posts: 327
I originally purchased Baldur's Gate shortly after it's original release after I got to see gameplay on a friend's computer back in the day before video reviews of games on the net were ubiquitous. I had only recently began gaming on PC and was absolutely blown away.
Over the years, I have returned again and again to re-visit the Bhaalspawn's Saga in it's numerous iterations and fan-made conversions and content.
I most recently returned again to play through Siege of Dragonspear, after having dropped the coin on the Collector's Edition (where's my damned box and goodies Beamdog? c'mon already
)
Instead of looking at reviews or anything of the sort, I played through it blind ( I find that I enjoy games MUCH more this way, watching Let's Plays and other reviews just ruins the experience, imo) The last playthrough I did was from when the Enhanced Editions were released.
I thoroughly enjoyed it, and am playing through a second time now to try out different NPCs.
Possible spoilers to follow, this isn't for the TL:DR crowd, so if that's you, skip to the end.
Highlights:
Graphics: I really enjoyed the graphical update. The new interface window looks great, and things look SOOOO much better on a modern LCD at 1080p now. The only thing in the graphical update I didnt care for was the dark outlines for characters that is on by default. Thankfully, they can be turned off and bothered me no longer.
I really loved that more spell effects from IWD were used, especially for the ice-based spells and dmg effects from weapons. I don't recall if these were in the EE's or not, but I definitely noticed them now.
The environmental effects in the new areas were really fantastic. Some areas were the "fog" was generated could get a bit thick, but overall, I like the new environment graphics and hope they can/will be applied to some of the original areas in an update. I would also like to see the SOD interface in BG2:EE to make the BG saga feel like one big, consistent game.(with an option to turn off for purists)
Gameplay: FINALLY! TAHNk FREAKING TEH GAWDS - I can equip 2 handed and 2 handed ranged weapons and still dual wield/equip a shield without having to remove the offhand manually every single time I want to use it.
When BG2 came out and dual wielding was put in, I thought it was great... until I tried to equip a bow on the same character. My gameplay ever since has evolved around using 2 handed weapons or one handers and no shield just tog get around this confounding annoyance.
The Advanced AI option is a very welcome change. Characters using it perform very well, and I like to see them using items, searching for traps, turning undead, and using bard songs in an intelligent fashion without constant input from me. For someone who has played through the series many times, this cuts out alot of the tedium associated with the gameplay and makes it far more enjoyable.
NPCs: I enjoy most of the new NPCs, but I wish some more of the old ones were more expanded on an included in the expansion overall.
Safana - never used her much, but overall happy to see her character expanded on. Didn't have any issues with how she played out.
Glint - Glint presents a conundrum for me. Hes a good character, I like his "story", he's enjoyable to play with. I was surprised that he tried to romance my male PC, but then again, I felt the same way about Dorn. Just felt odd and out of place, but easily ignorable. Here's where the conundrum part comes in - he takes Tiax's spot as a cleric/theif and Tiax by far was my favorite NPC in the original BG. I really wish Tiax had been more expanded on instead of introducing a new NPC that essentially takes his slot.
Corwin - I was happy to see an NPC member from the Flaming Fist available, and she offers an interesting perspective. At first, I didn't care for her being an Archer, but I never gave that class kit a chance. After playing through with her, I find that the class is an EXCELLENT support class for a dedicated melee, like my PC Blackguard is. The single mom bit surprised me about as much as it did my PC when he found out. I like what they did with her character as far as not being a "by the book" officer of the flaming fist. When she brought up the whole aspect of her past relationships, I thought it was a bit much, but I guess a single mom in her shoes is gonna have alot of baggage.
Voghiln - my favorite of the new NPCs for several reasons. His banter and attitude are a riot, and the game sorely needed another kit bard available. The fact they used Skald was icing on the cake, I always use one in my IWD parties and they absolutely rock. I also found out they make damned good axe throwers.
M'kiin - didn't use her on my first playthrough, mostly because I didn't have room. The shaman class seems quite interesting, and they made a lot of specific gear for her. I don't like the fact that her graphic doesn't change at all when equipping different gear, but I realize that's because they used a goblin enemy model and didn't create a new goblin PC model just for her. Not a big deal.
Other PCs from original game - I picked up viconia for my first play through, I like what they did with her. Not much new content-wise, but they fleshed her out. I really like the new portrait. Did'nt use Minsc, Dynaheir, Khalid, Jaheira, Dorn, or Rasaad, so I have plenty left to discover on subsequent playthroughs.
Story: I liked it quite a bit, though Avernus seemed really rushed. Here I was thinking I'd be tromping the hellish wastes slaying devil and demon alike trying to fight my way to Caelar, but it ended up being a room or two and an elevator. Elevator fight was pretty damned cool though. Boss battle felt sufficiently epic. I didn't like the fact that you couldn't go back to areas once you cleared them and moved on, but I suppose it made sense from a marching army point of view.
Boerskyr Bridge was just awesome. I really felt the "holy sh_t" moment that the Flaming Fist must have felt when the PC has the vision and Bhaal's symbol is burned into the bridge. I enjoyed the whole BridgeFort area.
The dwarven lich cave was great, it harkened me to a more IWD-ish type of dungeon, which I like quite a bit.
The battle at the allied camp was a lot of fun. I really liked being able to assign teams to help out with the fights.
My only real issue with the entire storyline is that Avernus was just too damned short. From a storytelling perspective, I get why... the portal has to be closed post-haste before demons flood through it into the Prime. I think double it's current size would be perfect, but wouldn't complain with more.
Gear/Items: I went into this wondering just how they could implement interesting new gear an still keep it in line with the between BG and BG2 timeframe of the story. What I mean by that is gear that's better than what you can get by the end of BG, but not so much so that eclipses everything but the most powerful gear available in BG2.
I was *very* pleasantly surprised here. I don't think there is one single piece of gear or item that I wasn't happy to get or felt way too powerful. Even graphically I loved how the items were designed. I really, really wish that more of the SOD gear would make its way into BG2...once you get to an area appropriate for it. Acid Tongue and Daeros' Armor especially!
Favorite new items? I think that's pretty obvious
Daeros' Armor tops the list for me. Mainly because it was a surprise, and the graphical effect on it just ices this particular cake perfectly. I wasn't expecting to find anything better once I had the Rhino Beetle plate and Green Dragonscale crafted in Bridgefort.
At this point in time, if Beamdog does'nt do it, I hope some awesome modder out there makes a mod to place more of the SOD items into BG2. If not...well I may just have to learn how to do it myself. I don't like using the cheat console at all, for any reason, it just feels too cheap.
Summary (for the TL:DR crowd):
I really enjoyed the expansion and felt it fit the timeline in all respects. I felt the UI, and graphical changes are great, and gameplay especially so. The new items fit the expansion really well and are fun to obtain and use.
The new NPCs are mostly great, with some small quirks. Storyline is good and flows well.
Last area of the game should have been more fleshed out.
My overall opinion? best thing to happen to Baldur's Gate in a long time. I hope to see more, perhaps an expansion to BG2 or even BG3. In either case, I really hope the same engine is used, I think the enhancements are good enough to expand further content on without the need of moving to a 3D engine. Baldur's Gate going 3d would kill it for me.
Just like during the late 90s when EVERYONE was trying to bring all the great 2d game franchises into 3d, no one ever asked if they *needed* to be. Some just don't, the BG trilogy and IWD games are in this group.
Over the years, I have returned again and again to re-visit the Bhaalspawn's Saga in it's numerous iterations and fan-made conversions and content.
I most recently returned again to play through Siege of Dragonspear, after having dropped the coin on the Collector's Edition (where's my damned box and goodies Beamdog? c'mon already
)Instead of looking at reviews or anything of the sort, I played through it blind ( I find that I enjoy games MUCH more this way, watching Let's Plays and other reviews just ruins the experience, imo) The last playthrough I did was from when the Enhanced Editions were released.
I thoroughly enjoyed it, and am playing through a second time now to try out different NPCs.
Possible spoilers to follow, this isn't for the TL:DR crowd, so if that's you, skip to the end.
Highlights:
Graphics: I really enjoyed the graphical update. The new interface window looks great, and things look SOOOO much better on a modern LCD at 1080p now. The only thing in the graphical update I didnt care for was the dark outlines for characters that is on by default. Thankfully, they can be turned off and bothered me no longer.
I really loved that more spell effects from IWD were used, especially for the ice-based spells and dmg effects from weapons. I don't recall if these were in the EE's or not, but I definitely noticed them now.
The environmental effects in the new areas were really fantastic. Some areas were the "fog" was generated could get a bit thick, but overall, I like the new environment graphics and hope they can/will be applied to some of the original areas in an update. I would also like to see the SOD interface in BG2:EE to make the BG saga feel like one big, consistent game.(with an option to turn off for purists)
Gameplay: FINALLY! TAHNk FREAKING TEH GAWDS - I can equip 2 handed and 2 handed ranged weapons and still dual wield/equip a shield without having to remove the offhand manually every single time I want to use it.
When BG2 came out and dual wielding was put in, I thought it was great... until I tried to equip a bow on the same character. My gameplay ever since has evolved around using 2 handed weapons or one handers and no shield just tog get around this confounding annoyance.
The Advanced AI option is a very welcome change. Characters using it perform very well, and I like to see them using items, searching for traps, turning undead, and using bard songs in an intelligent fashion without constant input from me. For someone who has played through the series many times, this cuts out alot of the tedium associated with the gameplay and makes it far more enjoyable.
NPCs: I enjoy most of the new NPCs, but I wish some more of the old ones were more expanded on an included in the expansion overall.
Safana - never used her much, but overall happy to see her character expanded on. Didn't have any issues with how she played out.
Glint - Glint presents a conundrum for me. Hes a good character, I like his "story", he's enjoyable to play with. I was surprised that he tried to romance my male PC, but then again, I felt the same way about Dorn. Just felt odd and out of place, but easily ignorable. Here's where the conundrum part comes in - he takes Tiax's spot as a cleric/theif and Tiax by far was my favorite NPC in the original BG. I really wish Tiax had been more expanded on instead of introducing a new NPC that essentially takes his slot.
Corwin - I was happy to see an NPC member from the Flaming Fist available, and she offers an interesting perspective. At first, I didn't care for her being an Archer, but I never gave that class kit a chance. After playing through with her, I find that the class is an EXCELLENT support class for a dedicated melee, like my PC Blackguard is. The single mom bit surprised me about as much as it did my PC when he found out. I like what they did with her character as far as not being a "by the book" officer of the flaming fist. When she brought up the whole aspect of her past relationships, I thought it was a bit much, but I guess a single mom in her shoes is gonna have alot of baggage.
Voghiln - my favorite of the new NPCs for several reasons. His banter and attitude are a riot, and the game sorely needed another kit bard available. The fact they used Skald was icing on the cake, I always use one in my IWD parties and they absolutely rock. I also found out they make damned good axe throwers.
M'kiin - didn't use her on my first playthrough, mostly because I didn't have room. The shaman class seems quite interesting, and they made a lot of specific gear for her. I don't like the fact that her graphic doesn't change at all when equipping different gear, but I realize that's because they used a goblin enemy model and didn't create a new goblin PC model just for her. Not a big deal.
Other PCs from original game - I picked up viconia for my first play through, I like what they did with her. Not much new content-wise, but they fleshed her out. I really like the new portrait. Did'nt use Minsc, Dynaheir, Khalid, Jaheira, Dorn, or Rasaad, so I have plenty left to discover on subsequent playthroughs.
Story: I liked it quite a bit, though Avernus seemed really rushed. Here I was thinking I'd be tromping the hellish wastes slaying devil and demon alike trying to fight my way to Caelar, but it ended up being a room or two and an elevator. Elevator fight was pretty damned cool though. Boss battle felt sufficiently epic. I didn't like the fact that you couldn't go back to areas once you cleared them and moved on, but I suppose it made sense from a marching army point of view.
Boerskyr Bridge was just awesome. I really felt the "holy sh_t" moment that the Flaming Fist must have felt when the PC has the vision and Bhaal's symbol is burned into the bridge. I enjoyed the whole BridgeFort area.
The dwarven lich cave was great, it harkened me to a more IWD-ish type of dungeon, which I like quite a bit.
The battle at the allied camp was a lot of fun. I really liked being able to assign teams to help out with the fights.
My only real issue with the entire storyline is that Avernus was just too damned short. From a storytelling perspective, I get why... the portal has to be closed post-haste before demons flood through it into the Prime. I think double it's current size would be perfect, but wouldn't complain with more.
Gear/Items: I went into this wondering just how they could implement interesting new gear an still keep it in line with the between BG and BG2 timeframe of the story. What I mean by that is gear that's better than what you can get by the end of BG, but not so much so that eclipses everything but the most powerful gear available in BG2.
I was *very* pleasantly surprised here. I don't think there is one single piece of gear or item that I wasn't happy to get or felt way too powerful. Even graphically I loved how the items were designed. I really, really wish that more of the SOD gear would make its way into BG2...once you get to an area appropriate for it. Acid Tongue and Daeros' Armor especially!
Favorite new items? I think that's pretty obvious
Daeros' Armor tops the list for me. Mainly because it was a surprise, and the graphical effect on it just ices this particular cake perfectly. I wasn't expecting to find anything better once I had the Rhino Beetle plate and Green Dragonscale crafted in Bridgefort.At this point in time, if Beamdog does'nt do it, I hope some awesome modder out there makes a mod to place more of the SOD items into BG2. If not...well I may just have to learn how to do it myself. I don't like using the cheat console at all, for any reason, it just feels too cheap.
Summary (for the TL:DR crowd):
I really enjoyed the expansion and felt it fit the timeline in all respects. I felt the UI, and graphical changes are great, and gameplay especially so. The new items fit the expansion really well and are fun to obtain and use.
The new NPCs are mostly great, with some small quirks. Storyline is good and flows well.
Last area of the game should have been more fleshed out.
My overall opinion? best thing to happen to Baldur's Gate in a long time. I hope to see more, perhaps an expansion to BG2 or even BG3. In either case, I really hope the same engine is used, I think the enhancements are good enough to expand further content on without the need of moving to a 3D engine. Baldur's Gate going 3d would kill it for me.
Just like during the late 90s when EVERYONE was trying to bring all the great 2d game franchises into 3d, no one ever asked if they *needed* to be. Some just don't, the BG trilogy and IWD games are in this group.
10
Comments
Or this:
In other words, it still may FEEL isometric, but it won't actually be so.
But the story was solid, does it really matter? Set aside the nostalgia and realize that graphics are simply a conveyance for the story, please.
Besides, if you expect BG3/BGNext/whatever to BE BG2v2, then well...that's wishful thinking. It's basically going to be a new story arc, without the Bhaalspawn. The story will be different, and the game engine will be different too, I suspect. The Infinity Engine is actually quite horrible compared to what there is today; there's so many great features in modern game engines that weren't available back in '98.
- Backgrounds are pre-rendered as 2D images ("isometric").
- Spell effects use 3D rendering.
The graphical advances of Pillars compared to BG2 are:- Higher resolution (unsurprisingly, since it was made for 2015 monitors and not for 1998 monitors).
- Character models use 3D rendering (which made it feasible to give them more varied animations, and properly represent every possible armor/clothing combination).
- Water, smoke, and similar animations, use 3D rendering.
But those are just the bells and whistles. It's all built on top of pre-rendered backgrounds.In other words, this is a modern example of "isometric" graphics, and it looks pretty nice, so this actually goes to show that a BG3 doesn't have to jump on the full-3D train just because it's 2016. Not sure what game that's from, but it doesn't look like an improvement compared to BG2/IWD, overall.
I mean the characters & water look nice, and the trees & effects are fine, but the terrain ruins it by looking so cartoonish.
The UI underpins combat, exploration, atmosphere, character stat tinkering, etc., and those do not necessarily have to be secondary to story.
In a story-focused cRPG like Planescape Torment, they are.
In a combat-focused cRPG like Icewind Dale, they aren't.
In BG2 it's debatable, but personally I don't consider the BG2 story much to write home about, nor a significant aspect of the game's appeal. In fact, the game can be most fun when you just go out and explore and hack'n'slash in chapter 2 or 6 and completely forget about the plot...
One iconic aspect of BG2 is the combat: Real-time-with-pause, but tactical due to controlling a whole party and summoned creatures, and due to the large array of possible defensive and offensive tactics, and all the spell protection and spell-protection-removal stuff in particular (the so-called "mage duels").
You can't recreate that same 'feel' if you'd switch to a fist-person camera, where controlling 6 party members plus 0-5 summons in a tactical RTwP fashion is not feasible.
If the PC can't get out of that, the Bhaal's essence isn't sufficiently strong in the PC. Time to find another test subject.
It's entirely constant with Chapter 2 of SoA, where he puts the protagonist through the whole charade of getting to the asylum in order to temper the Bhaal Essence and make it strong enough to use. Obviously in SoD and at the beginning of SoA the essence isn't strong enough, or he would have used it then.
But I think it's a case of cognitive dissonance. You WANT to not like SoD, so the more people defend it, the more convinced you become that there are problems with the story.
And regarding Irenicus testing the PC in BG2 Chapter 2, I never saw it that way. I saw it as Irenicus not knowing how to extract the Bhaal essence while PC and Imoen are in his dungeon. His main objective is to siphon out the essence, not strengthen it. My impression was that he just wanted some divine source of soul matter to replace his; the strength of that soul matter only was important insomuch as the original host needed to survive his experiments.
Irenicus would have gladly kept PC and Imoen in his dungeons if the Shadow Thieves hadn't interrupted him. He just made the best of a bad situation when he and Imoen were surrounded by Cowled Wizards and forced Charname to chase after him. It's not that he wanted Charname to risk their life to reach Spellhold to strengthen their soul, he just needed a new lab to experiment with since his old one was destroyed, and even he needed some time to escape the Cowled Wizards' authority.
(This is me speaking as an experienced research scientist turned science teacher).
Did you ever align with Bhodi? She is working for Irenicus, could have sent you straight to him, but sends you running round raising money and doing missions, potentially for months. The only reason for doing this would be that Irenicus needs you to become more powerful (in gameplay terms gain more levels) before he could use your soul.
If any old bit of divine essence would have done the job, he could have simply used the bunny Bhaalspawn.
This is a fact: If Irenicus could have used Bhaal's essence earlier there was nothing to stop him doing so. Teleport in, grab the protagonist and stick them in the machine. No need to wait weeks or months for them to find their way to him. His scrying enables him to know where the protagonist is at all times. He can cast Teleport Without Error. The cowled wizards are gnats. Or he could have simply grabbed one of the thousands of other Bhaalspawn.
Irenicus knew the Shadow Thieves would *eventually* turn on him, just not so soon. He also thought he could just kill the assailants quickly and resume his experiments in his lab.
"They act sooner than anticipated. No matter, it will only prove a slight delay."
He only relents killing the Cowled Wizards when they mention their numbers. There's also the fact the party escaped, something he hadn't seen coming ("So godchild you have escaped. You are more resourceful than I'd have thought" and "I won't let you leave, not when I'm so close to unlocking your power".)
@Fardragon, I can understand you liked SoD and it annoys you to read people gripes with it but your habit to disregard actual game dialogue to make random theories is extremely frustrating.
For me, its everything, rolled together: The 2D graphics, old AD&D ruleset, Infinity Engine, etc... That's what makes it Baldur's Gate.
I will not set it aside, because it has meaning to me. Let me put it into different terms to help you understand where I am coming from:
Let's say you really like a song from a band and it has a lot of meaning for you. Fast forward 10-20 years and a new band does a cover of your favorite song. It has all new whiz-bang musical effects and the lyrics are the same, even though they sound very different coming from the new singer. Everyone around you goes on about how much better it is with the improvements.... but you hate it and think the original sounds better. It matters.
You say he's a soulless sociopath, so why wouldn't he interpret things in the way I describe? Don't expect him to think like a normal person.
The reason for it is simple: He's ticked off the entire elven nation and its pantheon by performing what they view as the ultimate heresy. If he acts overtly at any point in his scheme, he risks being revealed to elven diviners well before his victory is secured. So he doesn't act overtly. In BG2, he operates out of the spotlight in a secret underground laboratory complex beneath Amn, relying on golems and goblins and other things not likely to spill the beans on his work, experimenting on a group of discredited adventurers he's ensured nobody is going to miss. When things go wrong and he gets revealed prematurely, he takes out his rage on the shadow thieves and the cowled wizards. Why does he ultimately surrender? Because he figures out a way to get everything he wants and fade back out of the spotlight in the bargain. By taking Imoen he can continue his research and lure the Scion to him in the bargain, especially if he spots a certain katana-wielding bounty hunter standing next to the Scion. He operates there until he loses Spellhold, then retreats to the Underdark. Why? Because the drow are always paranoid against their surface kin and would have optimal defenses against them and their gods, and their hatred can easily be twisted to make them the vanguard of his assault. The first the elves know about Irenicus is him stepping into Suldanessalar and dropping fire on the guards, far too late to rally any form of defense beyond Ellesime trying to recruit the Scion in their dreams.
To do this he plays a passive role whenever he's exposed (as long as he has a backup plan in mind, anyway), and relies on cats paws to do his bidding. Bodhi collects his test subjects through her little underground war and nobody notices. Yoshimo provides covert intelligence gathering, guidance, and sabotage under the guise of a friendly (if rascally) rogue. Saemon provides a fortuitous and reasonably suspicious avenue to get to Spellhold ("reasonably suspicious" meaning that it was always going to be somewhat suspicious how you obtain means to get there, but Saemon is just the right kind of dubious that you can reason such suspicions away).
The entire time it is not you he is scared of, all the way until the end. It's the elves. He can't let them figure things out too early.
That, at least, extends well to SoD. He plays a passive role the entire time, guiding with a few leading questions and a little assistance to third party factors (like Skie) while overall simply watching and taking notes on functional differences between the divine sparks of an aasimar and a godchild, then picking an effective tactic to isolate his chosen target such that nobody questions their disappearance when he easily takes them and their entourage. All of it kept low key to ensure his enemy isn't tipped off prematurely.
Leaving the party to venture into dangerous adventures while he waits? Not ideal, but a necessary risk. Taking them while their in the public eye is a much larger risk, and the very unstoppable nature that makes the Scion's soul a desirable one makes the risk of their death a minimal one. If anything, the adventuring refines the soul, makes it just that much more valuable. Sure a certainty would be better, but given the two chances, leaving the Scion to follow him was the safer for his goals. If the Scion died, there were other godbloods, but he may not be able to recover from exposing himself too early.
Just messed up the formating.
I was trying to point out, what Kurona later said. It's another total random theory, which disregards ingame knowledge and opens up new logical inconsistencies. And now you try to fix that, with the notion social skills would be of any relevance for Irenicus.
- (And not even that is true, the dukes are split as well as the citizens. So the plan from those, who somewhat believe in you, is to make you disappear, to not get the city into turmoil. It's not because they like you)-
No. Irenicus needs a soul with a strong enough divine essence. You are born with that. It's prophesied by Alaundo. There is no test from Irenicus for anything.
Well maybe now in SoD to decide between Caelar and CHARNAME, but that is decided by Caelar not being able to open the portal.
We are not talking about what might be considered a strong personality in RL.
Again, you guys are trying to imagine something, which is not there, for the sole purpose to justify sloppy writing.
Hej, why not make another prequel called: Baldur's Gate:Irenicus' Primary School
You have to pass a lot of grammar, math and social tests and if you do not score enough points, you are not allowed to progress to BG2, but you get a cutscene explaining to you, you were not worth it?
I mean, if Irenicus values all those things, because that makes us stronger, why not include it ingame?
Um... yes. I am trying to combine evidence from the games with my own perspective to create a coherent narrative. I thought that was obvious. I do believe the game supports the theory, however. Saemon himself states that Irenicus is very careful that revealing too much of his plans.
As I've said, this "topic" came up already some time ago. The slayer transformation of Skie had been discarded as nonsense by that, so Fardragon tried to spin some new theory why Irenicus tried to blame us for the Skie murder. With frankly the same nonsense. The "only" response then from someone not involved here was "I am not sure if Fardragon is trolling you". And then I am seeing this idea pop up again and I am as well not sure anymore...