Bow enchantment

Danacm

I have 2 questions,
So now its possible to the arrows use the enchantment of the bows with the new opcodes ?
Arr there any mod thst give the bg2ee arrows the dmg enchantment bonus like bgee?

Edit: i think it would be good to use the bow enchantment but not dmg, and give dmg bonuses to higher arrows.

Dee

I created a mod a while back that makes it so that enchanted bows also enchant their ammunition; it doesn't change the damage bonuses, though: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/58374/enchant-the-missile-launchers-ranged-weapon-tweak

Danacm

Thank you @Dee its fantastic dont you know an additional mod that have the component to add enchanment dmg bonus to arrows as bg1 ? Ill want to use both, your mod with bow enchanment and arrow dmg bonus.

Dee

There's probably a mod out there that does it (and I've probably used it myself), but I'm having trouble remembering.

I'll see about putting together a component to add to my mod, though my experience with WeiDU is very limited.

Danacm

It would be awesome. It will be optional component use mod or all in one ?

Dee

Danacm said:

It would be awesome. It will be optional component use mod or all in one ?

It'd be optional, assuming I can figure out the scripting to make the changes on-the-fly. My computer's a little bit fritzy at the moment, though, so it might be a while before I get to it.

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mf2112

subtledoctor said:

I never realized that BG2EE differed from BGEE in this regard. I would probably include code in my mod to equalize things. Probably make launchers' bonus affect your to-hit roll, and missiles' bonus affect your damage roll. (Question: what to do about thrown weapons in this case? Given the EEs' somewhat insane decision to apply your STR bonus to damage, I would probably treat thrown weapons like launchers and only give a to-hit bonus for enchantment.)

I'll leave the "what can you hit" issue to @Dee's mod. And make sure mine is compatible.

For some types of missiles it seems to make sense to apply some damage bonus from strength. Likes axes or daggers maybe, but at a cost to accuracy. If you throw the dagger as hard as you can, it is going to be a bit less likely to hit exactly what you were aiming at. Darts though, strength doesn't make sense.

Dee

The tabletop rules, from what I recall, actually let both the launcher and the ammunition receive both bonuses (damage and to-hit)--the idea being that it's good to have a magical launcher, but better to have a magical launcher and magical ammunition. So that's probably what I would do here, as part of that optional component.

mf2112 said:

subtledoctor said:

I never realized that BG2EE differed from BGEE in this regard. I would probably include code in my mod to equalize things. Probably make launchers' bonus affect your to-hit roll, and missiles' bonus affect your damage roll. (Question: what to do about thrown weapons in this case? Given the EEs' somewhat insane decision to apply your STR bonus to damage, I would probably treat thrown weapons like launchers and only give a to-hit bonus for enchantment.)

I'll leave the "what can you hit" issue to @Dee's mod. And make sure mine is compatible.

For some types of missiles it seems to make sense to apply some damage bonus from strength. Likes axes or daggers maybe, but at a cost to accuracy. If you throw the dagger as hard as you can, it is going to be a bit less likely to hit exactly what you were aiming at. Darts though, strength doesn't make sense.

Strength bonus to damage comes straight from the tabletop rules, and it's based on the idea that if you're throwing something you're using the same skills and muscles that you'd use with a melee weapon; that means not only throwing the object as hard as you can, but also measuring that force with the right precision to actually hit your target. (No one just swings their sword as hard as they can, or they'd never hit their targets even in melee; that's what the Power Attack feat in Third Edition is meant to represent.)

Danacm

Hm i think the best way maybe to use the bow enchantment to only thac0 bonus and arrow enchantment to both thac0 and damage. Thats why you need to use better arrow, if you use the bow enchantment to ammunition.

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Danacm

I personally like the idea of the bow enchantment determine what you can hit, combine with bg1 arrow enchantment dmg tweak. But thats my houserules, i like to be play a strong archery user not nerfed as vanilla ( +3 arrow deal only 1d6 dmg not 1d6+3), and want to ise longbow, not forced shortbow because of enchantment level of bow is nearly useless in vanilla.

Dee

subtledoctor said:

snip

I feel like you would really enjoy D&D 5e.

AstroBryGuy

subtledoctor said:

I never realized that BG2EE differed from BGEE in this regard. I would probably include code in my mod to equalize things. Probably make launchers' bonus affect your to-hit roll, and missiles' bonus affect your damage roll. (Question: what to do about thrown weapons in this case? Given the EEs' somewhat insane decision to apply your STR bonus to damage, I would probably treat thrown weapons like launchers and only give a to-hit bonus for enchantment.)

I'll leave the "what can you hit" issue to @Dee's mod. And make sure mine is compatible.

Calling applying STR bonus to thrown weapon damage "insane" when it's a PnP rule is a bit harsh. Even 5e continues to have it for thrown weapons that can also be used as melee weapons (i.e., hand axes: yes; darts: no).

One could take a page from 3e - 5e and eliminate base rates of fire above 1 per round (excepting for "speed weapons"). That would make STR bonuses for thrown weapons not so over-the-top.

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Dee

@subtledoctor I don't disagree, incidentally, that there's a neat kind of elegance to "launcher gives to-hit, missile gives damage". I think that if you want to mitigate the benefits of ranged weapons that's a totally fine way to do it (I would also support @AstroBryGuy's proposal above, reducing APR to 1 for all ranged weapons). For me, the damage output potential doesn't bother me, primarily because I know that melee weapons deal more damage overall, both because of damage dice sizes and because of Strength bonuses.

For the purposes of my mod, my goal is to make ranged weapons more satisfying to use across the entire campaign. To me, that means making sure that ammunition stacks are capped appropriately, that they don't interfere with inventory management (player inconvenience is, to me, a poor way to balance combat bonuses), and that they work consistently between games so that players can predict more intuitively the effects of their gear, whatever that means.

I think if I were to remove one of the bonuses from one of them, I'd remove the damage bonus from the arrow instead of the bow. That means that the bow gets the damage bonus and the arrow gets the to-hit bonus. I'll explain why at the veeeerrry bottom of this post.


Tangent time!


You mentioned four categories of design: fun, balance, challenge, and satisfaction. To me, there's three categories: Fun, Balance, and Awesome.

Fun means that the mechanics don't stand in the way of me enjoying the game. I shouldn't have to spend too much time figuring out the numbers before I jump into the fray. Ammo recovery helps that by ensuring I never have to return to town when I run out of arrows; instead, I rest.

Balance means that the game is tuned to reward me for planning well, and to punish me for making mistakes. That means I shouldn't be able to walk through a gauntlet without breaking a sweat, but I shouldn't be running from every fight either. The Enchanted Missile Launchers component helps with balance by giving ranged characters exactly the same tools as melee characters, for purposes of basic combat.

Awesome means that the mechanics are satisfying to use when I use them well. That means that when I swing a sword, I feel it crack through the goblin's armor; when I shoot a +1 arrow from my +1 bow, it flies faster and hits harder than if it were a regular arrow or a regular bow. Standardizing the damage bonuses for using +1 launchers and +1 ammunition helps with that by placing equal importance on my Bow (the thing I care most about) and my Arrow (the thing I care least about).

Together, I think of those three categories like the corners of a triangle. I can go all-in on Fun (90°) and then put a whole lot of effort into Balance (89°), but then the Awesome is going to suffer (1°). Or I can try to level it out between Balance and Awesome (45°), but that means that both of those categories are going to see less emphasis than Fun. I can never get more than 180° out of my triangle.

To me, the damage bonus is important to the launcher because it makes the launcher feel powerful to use, makes it more than just a set-piece in my character's inventory. A to-hit bonus is barely noticeable, but a damage bonus is felt by every enemy I hit.

And conceptually, damage from the launcher makes sense: a bow with an enchanted string pulls taught more quickly, meaning the arrow will fly faster and hit harder. Putting the damage bonus on the bow makes the bow satisfying to use, and puts less emphasis on the arrow, which is as it should be, since you don't say "I'm an archer, I wield arrows."

To-hit bonus on the arrow, then, becomes a factor of the missile flying straighter once it's in the air, and being more effective at piercing armor once it reaches its target. A to-hit bonus isn't as noticeable, but it makes the arrow more satisfying to use because it makes the arrow more likely to be effective.

I still think missiles and their launchers should both get the bonus to hit and damage, but if I had to remove one or the other, I'd keep the damage on the bow and the to-hit on the arrow.

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Dee

Dead horses are fun to beat!

subtledoctor said:

(Not to beat a dead horse (okay, I beat dead horses all the time ) but this would tend to imply that thrown weapons should not get damage bonuses - because they have no launcher.)

I'd counter that for a thrown weapon, the launcher is you, so adding your Strength bonus makes even more sense.

A thrown weapon is a melee weapon that you throw, broadly speaking. So a thrown weapon's enchantment should function in the same way as a melee weapon (i.e. to-hit and damage), rather than a ranged weapon.

(Speaking broadly, though, I do see the logic of your statement and it makes sense. But dead horses.)

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Dee

I think that's where Range comes into play--or is supposed to, except that visibility radius is capped at 30 feet in the Infinity Engine.

But a Longbow has a range of 100, whereas Throwing Daggers have a range much shorter than that.

Danacm

Reflex longbows have the range of about 120. Interesting but a well trained hun, mongol horse archers can shoot the speed of he can hold 8 arrows in the air simultaneously. In archery the most important factor is the speed of the arrow, that depends on the experience of the archer and the bow itself. I read lot of articles about archery, piercing force etc but my english not enough to write with the correct terms.