Aaah leave my thread alone! It's about spells! Why not discuss something like - would Lightning Bolt be more useful as a ray projectile rather than a missile; is there any way to make Shield cover you only from the front, and would that be worth doing; what new Adjuration spells would people like to see, and does anyone play an abjurer? Same thing for Divination, interesting ideas are welcome. And for priests - not to forget priests. What spells beyond camp healing would people like to see - Heat Metal, Dust Devil maybe? Wyvern Watch?
We were talking about spells. You said the focus of spellcasting is damage because it's a hack-and-slash game. I said you don't have to play it as a hack-and-slash game, with the implication that non-damage spells seem less lame when you're not trying to kill everything in sight. You expressed skepticism and asked how one can avoid hack-and-slash, so people answered your question. Very politely, I might add.
I'm happy to talk about other spell stuff, though. Lightning bolt would be more useful but less interesting that way; I don't know if it's possible, but Shield covering only the front sounds cool; I'm satisfied with the current array of Abjuration spells; I've never played an Abjurer, in part because few (if any?) Abjuration spells are affected by specialist save bonuses. More Divination spells would be nice, and some of your Ranger tracking ideas could probably play into that. I'm happy with the Cleric spell selection, but I'd like to see the IWD Druid spells brought over.
Look, we all know - yes, we know - let's just admit it - that soloing this game or going the way described a couple of posts above is not how this game was meant to be played and is pretty perverse. It's just cheese. I've done my share of perversity, I'm fine with yours if that's what pleases you. But that kind of ingenuity - play AD&D without killing anyone - is really something different from real en(joy)ment. It's doable, but I'm not really interested in spells that become useful in a solipsist's world, I'm looking and discussing what could enrich this game world, the living common world of parties and races and interrupted rest and Jaheira fighting Xzar and yes, getting levels through blood and glory. Combat is going to be an important part of the experience no matter what we do. If I contribute anything real in the end myself, it will be to put combat in a more comprehensive milieu of actions, make it a part of gameplay rather than, nearly, the whole, and make fighting itself less straightforward. That way maybe people won't be driven to solo the game or get perverse to extract some fresh enjoyment out of it.
And this, I swear, is the last time I'm going to talk about my planned mods until I have something out.
Now the second half of your answer is more to the point, and I thank you for it. For the lightning bolt I meant a ray that would also bounce off walls. That could be fun. My ranger tracking - well, I would love to see that happening, but that's the most Butch-ish of all my ideas, because it would take work with area files. And just what are the IWD druid spells? I've never played a druid in IWD.
The minimum-kill run was just an extreme example to demonstrate that the game is mechanically robust to a very wide range of play styles. There's a whole world of options in between pacifism and hack-and-slash, and many disabling spells have uses in that range. Even for the standard of "how this game is meant to be played," I take a more inclusive view. I would argue that both solo adventuring and heavy use of stealth are intended options and can be natural roleplaying decisions. I wouldn't put those in the same category as getting zero experience or the cheesy tactic I described for Sarevok. Anyway, further expanding the arsenal of non-combat options sounds great to me.
IWD gives Druids a bunch more useful spells. Definitely worth trying sometime. Here's a (possibly incomplete) list; I'll let you use imagination or Google to figure out their effects:
Sunscorch Alicorn Lance Beast Claw Cloudburst Icelance Moonblade Spike Growth Mold Touch Storm Shell Giant Insect Produce Fire Smashing Wave Star Metal Cudgel Static Charge Thorn Spray Wall of Moonlight Animal Rage Spike Stones Entropy Shield Whirlwind Impervious Sanctity of Mind Mist of Eldath Stalker
Ice Lance is a mage-only spell in IWD and IWD2. There's an IWD2 mod that introduces it as a druid spell, though, along with Ice Storm, Vitriolic Sphere, Acid Fog, Acid Storm, Ice Dagger, Burning Hands, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning, and a few other mage spells.
To @subtledoctor : no, I haven't discovered Spell Revisions. Sounds like a mod. I was talking about the games. Well, I'll look into it with all the hope I can muster and fingers crossed hard that it isn't just about balance, more this or more that.
And here is something that could probably be borrowed from Torment: Ice Knife. In addition to just being a cool spell, it lets you fire the knives successively, on different targets. Something that should be the case for Flame Arrow. If anyone wants to take a can opener to that one?
I'm sorry, I'm laughing. How are you going to kill Sarevok unless you've beefed up to level 9? Supposing you could even get to him through the Nashkel Mines, the Bandit Camp, Cloakwood, the Cloakwood Mine and all the other cities, towers and catacombs you need to plow through.
In any case, for lame spells, I would say the "Infravision" level 1 spell. At least games like Neverwinter Nights had Light which was a Cantrip (Level 0 spell) and actually provided some illumination, which also lasted much much longer. And it's probably the best level 0 spell in those games.
Well, Cantrip may yet be made someday. Infravision - yes, it's not useful. But I've always felt it was pretty cool, to have those other characters suddenly light up red in the dark. Although in BG you get the helmet of infravision pretty early on. The thing about Light and similar things is that in the IE games, of course, we don't have dynamic lighting, but also nighttime and darkness in dungeons don't have any gameplay effect. If someone decided to introduce a global mod that would apply, for example, -2 to attack and armor to all creatures without infravision or a light effect, then things would be different. And the same could be made for weather. Shouldn't rain make people clumsy and bow strings soggy? But I won't be the one to push for those changes.
The thing about Light and similar things is that in the IE games, of course, we don't have dynamic lighting, but also nighttime and darkness in dungeons don't have any gameplay effect.
They do have a huge effect on stealth, which will be important to some players.
Didn't think of that. Stealth is maintained every round regardless of lighting, though, right? After you've made the first check. By the way, can someone explain to me how Hide in Shadows and Move Silently work in BGEE? Do I have to have both of them developed to go invisible?
To @joluv : that Wall of Moonlight, how is it oriented? I mean, if it's a wall, then it's broader than it's thick, yes?
Didn't think of that. Stealth is maintained every round regardless of lighting, though, right? After you've made the first check. By the way, can someone explain to me how Hide in Shadows and Move Silently work in BGEE? Do I have to have both of them developed to go invisible?
They are averaged together, so if you have 100 in one and 0 in the other, it's exactly the same as having 50 in both. Stealth is re-checked every round, so if you start in a shadowed area and move into the light, it will be harder to make the next stealth check.
The average of HiS and MS also affects the time you will be hidden, a thief with a bad score in stealth can have a certain percentage of success when he hide in a very dark place, but he have to run and backstab. With a very high score he almost never fails hiding when he is in a dark place, and a good chance to hide also in plain light, but also the full round to move behind the enemy, wait the right moment (maybe a breach from your mage) and backstab.
Nice effect, @joluv. That's the Enhanced IWD2, I see.
And thanks for the explanation of stealth. I still think it's easier to stay hidden than to hide. My thieves are bad at hiding and fail in half-shadowy places again and again, in daytime. But once they manage it, they seem able to walk around the map for a few rounds without having to step in shadows. Maybe that's the random number generator acting out again, though. Well, how about this for an idea: Deafness to give a 20% bonus to stealth to all creatures within 30 feet while it lasts, to represent the ease of sneaking up on them. Say what? Sneaking up on them, I said! And Silence could give party members extra 50% to stealth. After all, the Silence spell isn't a gag, it really stops all sound. It shouldn't be just a mage suppressor.
No, to stay hidden is not easier. As I told you if you have a good stealth score you remain hidden longer, but there is no check for it, how long is only related to your stealth ability. only something like TS or Detect Illusions from another thief can reveal you. To stay hidden is not easy or difficult, is automatic. So your thief hide successfully, then walk or do what he wants, avoiding the things that interrupt the invisibility like attacking or even changing weapon from the quick slot. At this point how much light there is is not relevant, if according to his stealth points Hide in Shadows lasts 10 seconds he will remain invisible for that period, point. But every rounds, so every 6 secs, a new check is done. Suppose that he fails this check, on the feedback screen appears "Hide in shadow failed", but he will be still invisible for other 4 secs (10 - 6 = 4 ) that he can use to backstab, run away undetected to try to hide again or whatever. If he doesn't fail the check then he have other 10 secs of invisibility, from the moment that the new check is done, not from the moment that the old invisibility would have been expired. Every new check is done according to the light conditions of the place where he is at the very moment of the check, so at the beginning of the round.
I hope that now the thing is more clear.
Those are the basics, there is more to tell on how to use it effectively, for multiple backstabbings without taking a single damage, to explore full areas at 0 risk and so on. But we are going way to much OT, so if you are interested open a dedicated topic.
@gorgonzola : Yes, that was very helpful. I don't normally play thieves, but it's nice to know how stealth works. Energy Drain, Gate... Meteor Swarm, too. Wish is really badly done, but we are getting into high-level stuff here. Towards the end of BG2 and the Throne of Bhaal something strange happens to magic - it becomes so completely trivial and unbalanced, for both priests and wizards. There are almost only big damage effects and protections from them, and heals.
I have to confess that I perso thought BG-universe level 2 mage-spells generally "the bottom stack of the lowest drawer" - at least compared with rather often useful (IMO) 1st level spells. Before someone pointed me to "Glitterdust."
I did truly have a bias against level 2 BG-spells, because at least you had mage armor and magic missle at first level as useful, predictable spells - or "Leech" that could not be countered by magic resistance, and hence interrupted even pretty cool-handed casters... And at level three, one scrambled for spell slots due to usefulness of those spells.
I imagine any spell has its potential moment - but sometimes that window seems very narrow (to me at least, in BG universe) because of the high save vs spell and/or magic resistance of any notable opponents.
Which is why new spells should do something other than affect opponents directly. Besides, all those damage spells and direct effects detract from the importance of fighters. Taking a sword to a thing is the most visceral experience in AD&D and it grounds everything else. I've realized that what the games lack, as far as fighting is concerned, is actually not magic but really tough, resilient opponents that would be a challenge for parties of comparable level even with support of wizards and clerics. It's a pleasure to run into a Battle Horror or a Doom Guard, but, for example, Ogres aren't nearly as menacing to starting characters as they should be. We begin outfitted much better in these games than in pen-and-paper, where a chain mail is the best thing a 1st-level fighter can afford, and must take care to hold on to it. And we have ready magics - Entangle, Spook and so on. That's not counting missiles and exploiting the AI.
Agannazar's Scorcher is a fine 2nd-level spell, though. The way it is implemented it is too good.
@chimeric This is a game good for new players, and for them ogres can be an hassle, at least for me they was, as well for experienced ones that can solo a character through a modded game. Then you go up until reaching Draconis and the Ravager that are quite resilient. And the game can be modded to make them even more resilient. Taking a sword to a thing is the most visceral experience in AD&D for SOME players, other people find it boring and prefer focusing on the casters, others like the RP part of it. And damaging spells are essential to who go solo with a caster. The game as it is is good for all those playing styles and the difficulty can not be raised in vanilla, making the early game foe more resilient, without making it a nightmare for newbies. LoB and mods keep it challenging for the others.
If someone don't like the damaging spells in the game there are already enough not damaging spells, you can use your party mages effectively without memorizing and casting a single MM.
By visceral experience I mean hands-on adventuring that is at least reminiscent of the freedom of imaginary role-playing, where there is up and there is down, seas and heavens, gelatinous cubes with remains of other adventurers inside, and you can pass through walls, you can bind people with a geas, climb walls, negotiate with demons, research spells and everything else. When you play, and with a good DM, you are involved from head to toe; and it is thrilling because it is dangerous. To me the Infinity Engine games are a very imperfect attempt to render some of that action - a better attempt than, for example, Menzoberranzan or others, but still just a a shadow of the real thing. And if anything needs to be done with them, it is to bring more of the original's richness there in any way we can. On the other hand, if you approach these games as Diablo-type hero quests, only with more dialogues and options for sneaking, then there is nothing lacking from the formula as it is.
Comments
I'm happy to talk about other spell stuff, though. Lightning bolt would be more useful but less interesting that way; I don't know if it's possible, but Shield covering only the front sounds cool; I'm satisfied with the current array of Abjuration spells; I've never played an Abjurer, in part because few (if any?) Abjuration spells are affected by specialist save bonuses. More Divination spells would be nice, and some of your Ranger tracking ideas could probably play into that. I'm happy with the Cleric spell selection, but I'd like to see the IWD Druid spells brought over.
And this, I swear, is the last time I'm going to talk about my planned mods until I have something out.
Now the second half of your answer is more to the point, and I thank you for it. For the lightning bolt I meant a ray that would also bounce off walls. That could be fun.
IWD gives Druids a bunch more useful spells. Definitely worth trying sometime. Here's a (possibly incomplete) list; I'll let you use imagination or Google to figure out their effects:
Alicorn Lance
Beast Claw
Cloudburst
Icelance
Moonblade
Spike Growth
Mold Touch
Storm Shell
Giant Insect
Produce Fire
Smashing Wave
Star Metal Cudgel
Static Charge
Thorn Spray
Wall of Moonlight
Animal Rage
Spike Stones
Entropy Shield
Whirlwind
Impervious Sanctity of Mind
Mist of Eldath
Stalker
To @subtledoctor : no, I haven't discovered Spell Revisions. Sounds like a mod. I was talking about the games. Well, I'll look into it with all the hope I can muster and fingers crossed hard that it isn't just about balance, more this or more that.
And here is something that could probably be borrowed from Torment: Ice Knife. In addition to just being a cool spell, it lets you fire the knives successively, on different targets. Something that should be the case for Flame Arrow. If anyone wants to take a can opener to that one?
In any case, for lame spells, I would say the "Infravision" level 1 spell.
At least games like Neverwinter Nights had Light which was a Cantrip (Level 0 spell) and actually provided some illumination, which also lasted much much longer.
And it's probably the best level 0 spell in those games.
To @joluv : that Wall of Moonlight, how is it oriented? I mean, if it's a wall, then it's broader than it's thick, yes?
And thanks for the explanation of stealth. I still think it's easier to stay hidden than to hide. My thieves are bad at hiding and fail in half-shadowy places again and again, in daytime. But once they manage it, they seem able to walk around the map for a few rounds without having to step in shadows. Maybe that's the random number generator acting out again, though. Well, how about this for an idea: Deafness to give a 20% bonus to stealth to all creatures within 30 feet while it lasts, to represent the ease of sneaking up on them. Say what? Sneaking up on them, I said! And Silence could give party members extra 50% to stealth. After all, the Silence spell isn't a gag, it really stops all sound. It shouldn't be just a mage suppressor.
As I told you if you have a good stealth score you remain hidden longer, but there is no check for it, how long is only related to your stealth ability. only something like TS or Detect Illusions from another thief can reveal you. To stay hidden is not easy or difficult, is automatic.
So your thief hide successfully, then walk or do what he wants, avoiding the things that interrupt the invisibility like attacking or even changing weapon from the quick slot. At this point how much light there is is not relevant, if according to his stealth points Hide in Shadows lasts 10 seconds he will remain invisible for that period, point.
But every rounds, so every 6 secs, a new check is done. Suppose that he fails this check, on the feedback screen appears "Hide in shadow failed", but he will be still invisible for other 4 secs (10 - 6 = 4
Every new check is done according to the light conditions of the place where he is at the very moment of the check, so at the beginning of the round.
I hope that now the thing is more clear.
Those are the basics, there is more to tell on how to use it effectively, for multiple backstabbings without taking a single damage, to explore full areas at 0 risk and so on. But we are going way to much OT, so if you are interested open a dedicated topic.
GATE, there are spells at lev 8 and 7 that do almost the same.
@gorgonzola : Yes, that was very helpful. I don't normally play thieves, but it's nice to know how stealth works. Energy Drain, Gate... Meteor Swarm, too. Wish is really badly done, but we are getting into high-level stuff here. Towards the end of BG2 and the Throne of Bhaal something strange happens to magic - it becomes so completely trivial and unbalanced, for both priests and wizards. There are almost only big damage effects and protections from them, and heals.
I did truly have a bias against level 2 BG-spells, because at least you had mage armor and magic missle at first level as useful, predictable spells - or "Leech" that could not be countered by magic resistance, and hence interrupted even pretty cool-handed casters... And at level three, one scrambled for spell slots due to usefulness of those spells.
I imagine any spell has its potential moment - but sometimes that window seems very narrow (to me at least, in BG universe) because of the high save vs spell and/or magic resistance of any notable opponents.
Agannazar's Scorcher is a fine 2nd-level spell, though. The way it is implemented it is too good.
Taking a sword to a thing is the most visceral experience in AD&D for SOME players, other people find it boring and prefer focusing on the casters, others like the RP part of it. And damaging spells are essential to who go solo with a caster. The game as it is is good for all those playing styles and the difficulty can not be raised in vanilla, making the early game foe more resilient, without making it a nightmare for newbies. LoB and mods keep it challenging for the others.
If someone don't like the damaging spells in the game there are already enough not damaging spells, you can use your party mages effectively without memorizing and casting a single MM.