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SCSII: mages pre-buff despite choosing the option to not let them pre-buff

ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
edited October 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
Hey,

For my BG2 LP I've installed SCSII with the following options (from my Weidu.log):

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #1000 // Initialise mod (all other components require this): v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2010 // More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2019 // Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility -> Antimagic spells remain single-target, but affect the target creature whether or not it is invisible (default option): v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2050 // Make individual versions of Spell Immunity available, so that players can use them in Contingencies etc.: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2120 // Slightly weaken insect plague spells, and let fire shields block them: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2130 // Cosmetic change: stop Stoneskins from changing the caster's colour: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2160 // Add an extra copy of some hard-to-find spell scrolls: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2170 // True Sight/True Seeing spells protect from magical blindness: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2180 // Prevent Simulacra and Projected Images from using magical items: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #4010 // Make Freedom scrolls available earlier: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #4030 // Retrieve Dropped Items from Hell: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #4040 // Improved shapeshifting: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #4050 // Make party members less likely to die irreversibly: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #5000 // Ease-of-use party AI: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #5010 // Remove animation from the Cloak of Mirroring (leave it for other spells and effects that use the same graphic): v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6000 // Smarter general AI: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6010 // Better calls for help: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6035 // Improved golems: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6080 // Smarter celestials -> Celestials have fast, uninterruptable innate magic: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6090 // Give dragons more staying power by increasing their hit points: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6152 // Smarter Mages -> Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6182 // Smarter Priests -> Priests never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v21 ~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #7070 // Improved Bodhi (Tactics Remix) -> "Toned-down" version of the original Tactics Improved Bodhi, with SCSII scripting: v21

The one I'm concerned with is
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6152 // Smarter Mages -> Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v21

As I understand, this is supposed to make mages smarter but prevent them from pre-buffing at the start of combat. Well, here's the battle log from our first "between areas" fight:

image

What's that (cast previously) I see? Pre-buffing? I thought I said I didn't want any of that! Is there a problem with my installation, or is this normal behavior in SCSII? If so how?

Thanks for the help. Tentatively tagging you @DavidW , as you're certainly best placed to answer.

Comments

  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    edited October 2012
    It's normal.

    I was confused by this at first too, but somewhere (the readme?) it does say that even if you choose "no prebuffs," mages will still insta-cast long-term defensive spells like Armor and Stoneskin at the start of combat.

    I think is a good way to do it, and conceptually it makes sense.

    Edit: Here's the paragraph from the readme --
    In addition, you can choose at install time whether or not wizards "pre-buff" - that is, whether they pre-cast a range of defensive spells (Minor Globe, Mirror Image, etc.), simulating the pre-castings that players can do just before a fight starts. Mages presumably prepare in advance for a party's arrival by scrying, scouts etc., but this is impossible to simulate within the game engine. (Mages cast very-long-duration spells (Armor, Stoneskin, Minute Meteors) whether or not you install this component, because they're assumed to have cast them at the start of the day or beforehand.)
    http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-scs.html

    See under section 6F "AI Modification" and "Smarter Mages."
  • LozLoz Member Posts: 19
    edited October 2012
    Yeah the option 3 'no-prebuff' actually does have limited prebuffing. This makes the readme a little confusing. Compared with the 10-15 buffs option 1 mages come with though, it is very light buffing. Having played both I much prefer option 3. Option 1 just gets really tedious after a while.

    The only problem is that it seems to me DavidW spent more time balancing the opening plays for option 1 mages. I say this because option 3's pretty much use the same triggers/contingencies as option 1's despite the fact that some of the best defensive spells are in the option 1 'pre-buff' list. A good example of this would be globe of invulnerability, a fantastic spell that blocks much of the party's magic until later in the game. Globe is never among an opening chain contingency or spell trigger. Yeah they often try to cast it early but it wastes time and is probably too late if they're standing in a web.

    Most of the triggers are either offensive or contain spell immunity + pro. magic weapons spell because these are the spells that aren't covered in the option 1 prebuff routine. The poor play from option 3 enemy mages is most obvious when witnessing level 14/16 mages who frequently have an offensive trigger/sequencer prepared and as such have only a stoneskin buff to defend themselves with. They usually die in seconds.

    What I'd like to see to finish the job on scsii's fantastic mage scripts is option 1/3 triggers and contingencies being completely separated. The option 1 ones work well as is but option 3 could use a little testing to come up with the best openings to a fight. Furthermore it would have an excellent side effect; at the moment one common complaint is that all mages buff in a similar way(spell immunity) - but because option 3 mages only get a few free buffs from their contingency/triggers there is an opportunity to see some real variety. One can use GoI/spell turning/shadow door, another spell deflection/spell shield/fire shield, another spell immunity/shadow door/pro. normal missiles etc. etc.


    edit: Oh and just after I wrote this I had another really cool idea. The triggers/contingencies/buffs could be tied to which specialist school the mage belongs to. For example a necromancer might usually have fire shield: blue. It isn't a necromancy spell but it does give the the right 'feel' I'd say. Same for an invoker having fire shield: red or an enchanter with some illusion buffs. It would be really cool to get a feel for what type of mage you're up against depending on their visual appearance due to buffs.
    Post edited by Loz on
  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    @Zeckul: yep, you get stoneskin whatever. Note that the component is "Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat". They do cast long-duration spells, basically because there's no reason for a wizard who has stoneskin memorised not to cast it first thing in the morning. (Early versions of SCS actually did just this, but people complained that they didn't like all the neutral wizards in the game being coloured grey.)

    @Loz: If there's an "officially recommended" buffing level, it's probably option 2. Theoretically I agree with you about testing a variety of alternatives for option 3 sequencers, but I'm not sure I'm interested enough for the considerable time investment, given that it's not a way of playing I'm especially likely to use myself.
  • LozLoz Member Posts: 19
    @DavidW: I certainly understand if you don't feel it's worth the time, and the mod is still awesome anyway. If you wanted to do some quick changes, just putting GoI in a couple of triggers would probably help things somewhat, especially if you replace the offensive triggers (perhaps just for option 3). Anyway I'm starting to suggest more work again heh!

    I must say I really can't agree with you about the 'no reason for mages not to buff first thing in the morning with stoneskin' line of thinking. Sure it works if you only think about things in a game and combat perspective, but not if you think about these wizards as actual people in a living world. Let's imagine one actually did that for a moment:

    First thing after I buff I go to eat breakfast... which is somewhat challenging now that my skin is made of stone. Next thing, being a mage, I go to pore over some old tomes. Shame it is difficult to turn the pages with these stone hands. After that I go to foyer of the library where that young librarian I like the look of works. I'm sure she's going to be impressed by my new blue robes... except I'm all stone so my cool looking clothes are wasted. Regardless I manage to convince her to go for dinner at the Mithrest Inn. We get on great and coming to the end of the evening we romantically look out at the setting sun over Waukeen's Promenade. Seems like the perfect time for a kiss... except she'd rather not kiss a stone statue.

    To my perspective, unless a mage was preparing for battle or suspected an ambush he wouldn't buff with something that could affect many areas of his life adversely. He'd put it in a contingency under conditions like 'if there are beings with hostile intentions close to me: activate', i.e. 'Enemy Sighted' in the BG2 world.
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    Ok, good to know this is normal. I can live with mages that pre-cast Stoneskin.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    Unless you're a battlemage in a war I don't see you casting protecting spells on yourself first thing in the morning. Higher level mages would just use a contingency for that. Lower level mages would expect protection from their own groups while they prepare for battle.
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    @Loz point taken, but it's just as easy to imagine these guys buffing themselves because they're either actively looking for you (assassins) or they've been tipped that you're in the vicinity (Drasus & crew).

    Either way, I don't much imagine Iron Throne flunkies as guys with stable home lives who spend a lot of time studying in libraries ...
  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    @Loz: put it this way, casting Stoneskin first thing in the morning for mages is the equivalent of putting your armour on first thing in the morning for fighters. (i.e., yes, it's inconvenient; no, you wouldn't do it if you just had a peaceful job; but yes, you would do it if you thought there was any realistic chance of a combat encounter). You don't meet a lot of unarmoured fighters in BG.

    Using a contingency probably would make sense if you thought there was basically no chance you'd get into a fight but you wanted to cover the bases. If you think combat is halfway possible, it's an appalling waste of resources.

    (Incidentally (and I don't mean this terribly seriously), the game doesn't check if you're stoneskinned prior to continuing romance paths, so I assume Stoneskin is less of a bar to your character's love life than you think!)
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