I think Dorn is drunk

Papa_Lou

Hey dudes.

I've been playing through the series as a greedy dwarven wizard slayer, and so far so good. Looting all the houses and taking what I want is fun, and I took along a party full of evil guys as well, including Dorn.
Dorn recently chatted me up and, since I'm evil, I totally agreed with him when he started talking about slaughter and death and all that fun stuff. Then, he said something along the lines of "there aren't many women like you".

Uh.

I realise dwarven women may not be the most feminine creatures in the realms, but last time I checked, my charname was a male. I have the NPC project mod installed, the one that adds more banter and conversations to the game, so is this something that came about due to that mod? Or is this the game's fault? Is Dorn drunk? Who knows.
Unfortunately I couldn't get a screenshot of this because of a screenshot program I have on my computer that made it difficult, and I totally shut Dorn down after that line, and he hasn't said much since. has anyone else encountered this before?

Thels

The BG1 NPC Project doesn't target new NPCs, so it shouldn't have any effect on that.

I haven't tried to romance Dorn myself, but I guess that's a line from the romance, which incorrectly did not account for PC gender.

Papa_Lou

I suppose. Granted, I wasn't trying to romance him at all, just being a fellow evil-doer.

Grum

I think Dorn is just trying to establish dominance in your blossoming relationship.

Kurona

Grum said:

I think Dorn is just trying to establish dominance in your blossoming relationship.

Too bad OP doesn't play an elf, Winthrop's boasting could have been verified!

Papa_Lou

Kurona said:

Grum said:

I think Dorn is just trying to establish dominance in your blossoming relationship.

Too bad OP doesn't play an elf, Winthrop's boasting could have been verified!

This thread went places I wasn't ready for... Hahaha

JumboWheat01

I could have sworn I read something somewhere that said Dorn was bi... but I'm probably remembering it wrong.

megamike15

dorn's bi, rassad and neera are straight.

rapsam2003

megamike15 said:

dorn's bi, rassad and neera are straight.

He is bisexual, but Dorn still should have recognized the PC as male...

Gallenger

Maybe it's a built in social faux pas towards dwarven women lol.

Thels

rapsam2003 said:

megamike15 said:

dorn's bi, rassad and neera are straight.

He is bisexual, but Dorn still should have recognized the PC as male...

Actually, because he's bi, he should have recognized the PC's gender.

If you use the Neera expansion to cheat same sex romances for Neera and Rasaad, then you should expect some gender glitches in the talk, as they're not intended for same sex romances. Dorn however, is intended, and thus shouldn't have such glitches.

@Papa_Lou: You should probably make a bug report for this.

randomhero890

I remember some old NES and SNES console RPG's that I played that had a romantic subplot would sometimes lack the coding to detect gender, and have the main character be hit on by a female villain whether the character was male or female...

I've heard that the sequel to this game doesn't conform to traditional gender stereotypes, which is all good. But what can kill the immersion for me is how it's presented. For example, I've never personally heard of non-straight people start hitting on people until they at first determine the person is also non-hetero. The obvious reason for this is that making that mistake just creates an awkward situation that both sides would rather avoid. Usually the interested person would present the other person with an opportunity to confirm their particular sexuality or else wait for the person to mention it, and then start trying to turn up the charm once it's confirmed

I's hard to code these subtle nuances in games with romantic subplots. Me personally I have never been much into romantic subplots in any video game so I just ignore em

shawne

randomhero890 said:

I've heard that the sequel to this game doesn't conform to traditional gender stereotypes, which is all good. But what can kill the immersion for me is how it's presented. For example, I've never personally heard of non-straight people start hitting on people until they at first determine the person is also non-hetero. The obvious reason for this is that making that mistake just creates an awkward situation that both sides would rather avoid.

Setting aside the fact that there are literally thousands of works of fiction that run with the very scenario you've mentioned, Dorn in particular is very clearly established as a character who isn't all that concerned with social niceties, and certainly isn't the type to get embarrassed or flustered. He makes a pass at you because he wants to sleep with you - if you turn him down, his only reaction is typical self-confident bluster that you're missing out.

randomhero890

If the fiction is even anything based on first-world social norms, I would call that a work of fiction indeed. You can have Dorn walk up and punch the protagonist in the face randomly, and say it's because Dorn likes confrontation too, it still definitely seems like a stretch of the imagination. I guess there are scenarios like that in Game of Thrones however, now that I recall, which is a good show

Kurona

randomhero890 said:

For example, I've never personally heard of non-straight people start hitting on people until they at first determine the person is also non-hetero. The obvious reason for this is that making that mistake just creates an awkward situation that both sides would rather avoid.

This happens pretty often actually, it's just that people who aren't homophobic tend to shrug it off instead of making 400 tweets to convey their shock. If you want to experience it first hands, just spend some time in nightclubs, alcohol should speed up the process.

But I wouldn't say it's a particularly rude thing to do. When you make a pass at someone, even if you know their orientation is compatible, there's still a myriad of reasons they may reject you. Is hoping for them to be homosexual/bisexual really worse than hoping they find you attractive or hoping they aren't already taken?

randomhero890

Yes, because it does not flatter everyone, maybe it should flatter every human, but I don't see how becoming defensive about it makes someone homophobic. A 19yr old female probably isn't feeling flattered when an 80year old guy makes a pass at her, but why not? Would it be considered ageism for her to not be? No. You're allowed to just not be. In fact, you're allowed to be pissed off by it, as I'm sure some 19 yr old girls would get when an 80 year old guy starts saying he wanted to have sex with them. But you really can't fault the 80yr old for trying, because there are some 19yr old girls on the planet who would say yes to that, in a certain situation

It probably is less likely to go over well if it occurred at a nightclub and the person was intoxicated on the receiving end and therefore could be quicker to anger. A gay person who makes it their mission to go to a non-LBGT nightclub and start hitting on heavily-intoxicated people of the same gender is setting themselves up for a bad night, I dunno any other way to see that, that's just being real. And I'm certain if we are being true to medieval history, it would go over far worse back then, when "buggary" (which shouldn't have been a crime but is a really fun word to say) was illegal

Kurona

Not being flattered by the proposal != proposal being inappropriate.

It's never really enjoyable to be hit on by someone we know we have no interest in. Unless the other party goes for outright sexual harassment or can't take no for an answer they aren't doing anything wrong. Yes you're allowed to be angry about it regardless but the rest of the world is also allowed to call you out for it.

randomhero890

Kurona said:

Not being flattered by the proposal != proposal being inappropriate.

It's never really enjoyable to be hit on by someone we know we have no interest in. Unless the other party goes for outright sexual harassment or can't take no for an answer they aren't doing anything wrong. Yes you're allowed to be angry about it regardless but the rest of the world is also allowed to call you out for it.

Just like no one is going to call out the 19yr old for being angry that a 80yr old dude is hitting on her, no one is going to call out the straight guy for being angry that a gay guy is making a pass at him. But in either case, I wouldn't call the action "wrong". Like I said, there are some 19yr girls who are into 80yr olds, so he wouldn't be "wrong" for trying. There isn't a right or wrong, just what is more socially tactful. It is more tactful to first ask some questions and build some rapport and hopefully, get a confirmation of sexuality before saying you want to have sex with that person

Edit: if I ignore what is socially tactful and start hitting on straight women, I am very likely to make them angry as well

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Kurona

randomhero890 said:

Kurona said:

Not being flattered by the proposal != proposal being inappropriate.

It's never really enjoyable to be hit on by someone we know we have no interest in. Unless the other party goes for outright sexual harassment or can't take no for an answer they aren't doing anything wrong. Yes you're allowed to be angry about it regardless but the rest of the world is also allowed to call you out for it.

Just like no one is going to call out the 19yr old for being angry that a 80yr old dude is hitting on her, no one is going to call out the straight guy for being defensive that a gay guy is making a pass at him. But in either case, I wouldn't call the action "wrong". There isn't a right or wrong, just what is more socially tactful

The thing is, what's "socially tactful" depends a lot of where you live. While old dudes making pass a young girls is rarely accepted anywhere (though personally it doesn't bother me much, as long as the guy doesn't stalk me/tries to touch me) homosexuals trying their luck with people can be seen as perfectly normal, especially in cultural capitals or cities with an active community. In those cases, being too defensive about it can be viewed with suspicion and backfire in a less than pleasant way.

Anyways we're off topic and it's my fault again OTL

I just meant to say that Dorn's way to express interest to a male PC isn't particularly irrealistic or tactless (again by the standards of where I live, might not be the same to you).

randomhero890

Kurona said:

randomhero890 said:

Kurona said:

Not being flattered by the proposal != proposal being inappropriate.

It's never really enjoyable to be hit on by someone we know we have no interest in. Unless the other party goes for outright sexual harassment or can't take no for an answer they aren't doing anything wrong. Yes you're allowed to be angry about it regardless but the rest of the world is also allowed to call you out for it.

Just like no one is going to call out the 19yr old for being angry that a 80yr old dude is hitting on her, no one is going to call out the straight guy for being defensive that a gay guy is making a pass at him. But in either case, I wouldn't call the action "wrong". There isn't a right or wrong, just what is more socially tactful

The thing is, what's "socially tactful" depends a lot of where you live. While old dudes making pass a young girls is rarely accepted anywhere (though personally it doesn't bother me much, as long as the guy doesn't stalk me/tries to touch me) homosexuals trying their luck with people can be seen as perfectly normal, especially in cultural capitals or cities with an active community. In those cases, being too defensive about it can be viewed with suspicion and backfire in a less than pleasant way.

Anyways we're off topic and it's my fault again OTL

I just meant to say that Dorn's way to express interest to a male PC isn't particularly irrealistic or tactless (again by the standards of where I live, might not be the same to you).

I'm just saying that people jump to "it must be homophobia" when someone gets angry at the way someone introduces that they want to slee with them.

There are a million+ scenarios where the way that any straight guy introduces to a woman that he wants to have sex with her in a way that can make her angry, or at least defensive. If we are saying everyone is equal, than the same should apply for the way that a gay person presents that they want to have sex with another person

And for a gay person, where last I checked, being gay is still a minority of he population, checking someone's sexuality should be considered a part of the flirting process. Just like for me, there are certain rules of tact I might want to employ to present sleeping with a straight female. Neither is right or wrong, the rules are just different, because the scenarios are different

randomhero890

Sorry for getting off topic. I work in behavioral health and find human behavior very interesting. I also had a gay male as a partner at work for 1.5yrs that I shared a space with 40hours a week. And never heard of that scenario from his anecdotes, which is why I might have sounded jaded that it does not happen often

shawne

randomhero890 said:

There are a million+ scenarios where the way that any straight guy introduces to a woman that he wants to have sex with her in a way that can make her angry, or at least defensive. If we are saying everyone is equal, than the same should apply for the way that a gay person presents that they want to have sex with another person

Here's the problem with that argument specifically in relation to BG, and why it can so easily be construed as homophobia:

For you to be at the point where Dorn is hitting on you, you would've had to select a line of dialogue that set his romance variable to 1. That's how romances work, mechanically speaking, in most RPGs. You would've had to say something to him first in order to get him to make a pass at you. So you're here complaining about a scenario that you triggered, and could've just as easily avoided by not flirting with the man first. You can see how that might look a bit strange.

randomhero890

shawne said:

randomhero890 said:

There are a million+ scenarios where the way that any straight guy introduces to a woman that he wants to have sex with her in a way that can make her angry, or at least defensive. If we are saying everyone is equal, than the same should apply for the way that a gay person presents that they want to have sex with another person

Here's the problem with that argument specifically in relation to BG, and why it can so easily be construed as homophobia:

For you to be at the point where Dorn is hitting on you, you would've had to select a line of dialogue that set his romance variable to 1. That's how romances work, mechanically speaking, in most RPGs. You would've had to say something to him first in order to get him to make a pass at you. So you're here complaining about a scenario that you triggered, and could've just as easily avoided by not flirting with the man first. You can see how that might look a bit strange.

Ha, good point. I dunno, I never recruited Dorn, tho the char is cool. I keep forgetting to talk to him at the friendly arm in on my most recent playthroughs, and he won't save you from the bandit ambush if you dont, it appears. The event simply doesn't trigger then, but it is one of my favorite scripted events of the ee edition tho

JumboWheat01

shawne said:

For you to be at the point where Dorn is hitting on you, you would've had to select a line of dialogue that set his romance variable to 1. That's how romances work, mechanically speaking, in most RPGs. You would've had to say something to him first in order to get him to make a pass at you. So you're here complaining about a scenario that you triggered, and could've just as easily avoided by not flirting with the man first. You can see how that might look a bit strange.

Some of these triggers are kind of silly though, especially in older RPGs. How are you supposed to know that simply being nice suddenly has romance implications? You were just being nice, it's what you say to every other NPC in the game, why does this one think you have the hots for them? You either need to be neutral and stand-offish or a downright jerk to avoid those triggers, and sometimes the triggers still get... triggered.

Like for instance, in Dragon Age, I often trigger Leliana's romance plot despite having answered straight to her face that I have a thing going with Zevran (because seriously, why wouldn't you have a thing going with Zevran?) And then she ends up confronting me because I supposedly was stringing her on when I was just being nice. At least in Dragon Age 2, there were icons on conversations, and one was a big ol' heart that quite plainly says "Choosing this option will start wooing the person you're talking to." You could at last be nice and friendly without pushing the bow-chicka-wow-wow button.

shawne

randomhero890 said:

Ha, good point. I dunno, I never recruited Dorn, tho the char is cool. I keep forgetting to talk to him at the friendly arm in on my most recent playthroughs, and he won't save you from the bandit ambush if you dont, it appears

... You never recruited Dorn, yet you're in this thread talking about how his same-sex romance supposedly breaks your immersion.

Tell me more about how people falsely jump to conclusions of homophobia.

randomhero890

shawne said:

randomhero890 said:

Ha, good point. I dunno, I never recruited Dorn, tho the char is cool. I keep forgetting to talk to him at the friendly arm in on my most recent playthroughs, and he won't save you from the bandit ambush if you dont, it appears

... You never recruited Dorn, yet you're in this thread talking about how his same-sex romance supposedly breaks your immersion.

Tell me more about how people falsely jump to conclusions of homophobia.

Sure, I read about it first online, then decided to avoid it. I knew everything that was added to the ee before I bought it, since I was paying money after all, it only makes sense

Who's being defensive now?

randomhero890

If it makes you guys feel any better, I have not nor will not romance any female character in this game or bg2 either, that was always my plan

In my opinion the game lacks the programming language to accurately simulate the subtle nuances of courtship in a way that I would find believable. Reading about Dorn's version before I downloaded the ee simply confirmed what I already felt

But Dorn still seems like a cool char and the game is still awesome, so...

ThacoBell

I will agree that romance triggers are weird, some seem to happen automatically, and others seem to trigger just because you aren't a huge douche to them. I still have no idea how the Glint romance triggers for me every single time I play SOD. Even worse there doesn't seem to be an easy way to let him down.

Papa_Lou

Ah, so I guess this means no one else had their dwarves misgendered by any half-orcs recently?
I guess not.

Shandyr said:

Just a quick question at the OP, @Papa_Lou
Do you think this thread is still on topic and do you agree with/like the direction it goes?

Definitely not on topic, hahahaha, but I don't mind a little friendly argument every now and then. As long as everyone stays civil it's cool. Coming home from work to find 17 notifications was also interesting.

Grum

I'll just say this: This is Dorn we are talking about. Dorn is self-centered to the extreme.

He has pure murderous rage towards his old companions for betraying him...while thinking nothing of slaughtering a village full of women and children. He also, in his quest line, is more than ok with sacrificing a party member to summon his patron (for the purpose of betraying his patron). He demands that others show him loyalty when he doesn't do the same.

He pursues his goals with single mindedness, but turns violent when anyone questions said goals. Or even questions him period.

When Dorn wants something, he takes it. When he likes someone, he says it. Bluntly, without caring how awkward it will make things.

That's who he is. And if he makes you uncomfortable with his advances...well, that's just in line with his character.