ToEE, first playthrough.
GygaxianProse
Member Posts: 201
in Off-Topic
Early this summer, and before learning of BGEE, I happily snapped up the D&D anthology. Two titles therein I haven't played are Planescape, and Temple of Elemental Evil. This thread will be about some adventures in the latter.
Firstly, I found the text in ToEE unreadable on a 26" Planar TN panel. Fortunately, the game allows alternate resolutions via modifying the config file, to an apparent max of 1600x900. 1080p loaded, but characters were not displayed.
Having found a readable resolution, we then went on to character creation.
ToEE is probably what a BG3 would have resembled, at least graphically and mechanically. We have 3.5 rules at play here for the Gygax/Mentzer classic. Although my experience in pnp gaming with these rules isn't pleasant, in a CRPG all the additional mechanics run under the hood, and arguably have more place here.
Selecting CG for party alignment, I created:
Fennis Twee, male halfling sorcerer & party leader. CG.
Arnold, male half-orc fighter. CG
Laurana, female half-elf bard, NG
Rain, female elf druid, CN
Reghar, male dwarf barbarian, CG
Thusly forged, the party arrived in Homlett, looking for one Black Jay. After some equipping, they headed to the Inn, and took a meal from their famous kitchen. The innkeep's wife told them where to find Black Jay. There was much exploration of the village, and conversations had. Eventually the party decided to head up to Emridy Meadows before attempting the Moathouse.
While exploring the fields, the party encountered some skeletons, and made handy work of them, particularly Reghar, who was armed with a great club. Unfortunately, a skeletal gnoll would soon prove his undoing, scoring a devastating blow that reduced the dwarf to -10hp. No matter which edition is your favorite, -10 is...bad. Beyond the party's curative power, and its purse, Reghar's body was left in front of St. Cuthbert's. The dwarf had potential, but such are the perils of adventuring.
While resting at the Inn, the party took on Zert as a replacement, a 2nd level human fighter. Determined not to let the Emridy Meadow best them, the party returned, and cleared many undead there. Zert, not terribly effective, was mortally wounded, brought back from -3hp by the druidess.
Although this second trip to the meadow was more successful, Zert required a week's rest to fully heal. The party decided to part with him then, and hired the duo of Turuko, a monk, and his rather large companion, Kobort. They then headed to the Moathouse. Upon arrival, they were attacked by four giant toads, the defeat of which triggered levelups for the four original characters. A trip back to Homlett was called for, resting, and new magic.
* So far, I am finding ToEE an enjoyable game. I like the turn-based combat, which is a bit more D&D than the Infinity engine's excellent adaptation. The look, animation, and weird soundtrack all work for me. (The special attacks of the giant toads are awesome, and straight out of T1) After some experimenting, the text on this rig is better at 1280x720 upscaled than 1600x900 raw or upscaled.
Now on to the Moathouse....
Firstly, I found the text in ToEE unreadable on a 26" Planar TN panel. Fortunately, the game allows alternate resolutions via modifying the config file, to an apparent max of 1600x900. 1080p loaded, but characters were not displayed.
Having found a readable resolution, we then went on to character creation.
ToEE is probably what a BG3 would have resembled, at least graphically and mechanically. We have 3.5 rules at play here for the Gygax/Mentzer classic. Although my experience in pnp gaming with these rules isn't pleasant, in a CRPG all the additional mechanics run under the hood, and arguably have more place here.
Selecting CG for party alignment, I created:
Fennis Twee, male halfling sorcerer & party leader. CG.
Arnold, male half-orc fighter. CG
Laurana, female half-elf bard, NG
Rain, female elf druid, CN
Reghar, male dwarf barbarian, CG
Thusly forged, the party arrived in Homlett, looking for one Black Jay. After some equipping, they headed to the Inn, and took a meal from their famous kitchen. The innkeep's wife told them where to find Black Jay. There was much exploration of the village, and conversations had. Eventually the party decided to head up to Emridy Meadows before attempting the Moathouse.
While exploring the fields, the party encountered some skeletons, and made handy work of them, particularly Reghar, who was armed with a great club. Unfortunately, a skeletal gnoll would soon prove his undoing, scoring a devastating blow that reduced the dwarf to -10hp. No matter which edition is your favorite, -10 is...bad. Beyond the party's curative power, and its purse, Reghar's body was left in front of St. Cuthbert's. The dwarf had potential, but such are the perils of adventuring.
While resting at the Inn, the party took on Zert as a replacement, a 2nd level human fighter. Determined not to let the Emridy Meadow best them, the party returned, and cleared many undead there. Zert, not terribly effective, was mortally wounded, brought back from -3hp by the druidess.
Although this second trip to the meadow was more successful, Zert required a week's rest to fully heal. The party decided to part with him then, and hired the duo of Turuko, a monk, and his rather large companion, Kobort. They then headed to the Moathouse. Upon arrival, they were attacked by four giant toads, the defeat of which triggered levelups for the four original characters. A trip back to Homlett was called for, resting, and new magic.
* So far, I am finding ToEE an enjoyable game. I like the turn-based combat, which is a bit more D&D than the Infinity engine's excellent adaptation. The look, animation, and weird soundtrack all work for me. (The special attacks of the giant toads are awesome, and straight out of T1) After some experimenting, the text on this rig is better at 1280x720 upscaled than 1600x900 raw or upscaled.
Now on to the Moathouse....
2
Comments
edit: oh here they are: http://www.co8.org/forum/
I remember playing the Demo, the graphics were a step up from BG, and the spell and music effects were great too. I didn't quite like the spiral spell selector though, seemed overly tedious in drawing out the fights.
I enjoyed ToEE, but quit playing after I entered the big temple towards the end. I got bored of the same tile set after all those hours.
Love the ToEE engine, and the radial wheel thing, it allows for a lot of tactical options (coup-de-grace, defensive fighting, non-lethal damage, etc) while not looking like a cluttered mess. It takes some getting used to though.
EDIT: Ah. I reread it. You have Turuko and Kobort with you. I can't remember if you have space for one more or not. I never liked them much. They take more of your stuff than the others. Also they are evil.
got to DM the campaign thru the GDQ modules...epic
Yes, well, there were probably three trips to the Moathouse before clearing out the bandits. A couple of TPKs with the gnoll and bugbear encounters....the core 4 ( sorcerer, bard, fighter, druid) were level 3 when they reached the bandit leaders. Some cool tactical stuff with a druidic fog, a snake summoning, numerous sleep spells, and the party surged through.
Turuko, however, fell and reached -10 before he could be aided. I let him go, however. Loved his animation, but we need more people full plate and packing steel if this party is to survive further. His 11hp weren't cutting it for a 3rd level front liner, which is how I used him.
So, we dumped the monk next to the short lived dwarf. Will keep Kobort, as he hits hard. Looking for others. Nulb just opened via conversation, maybe there are NPCS there.
I like the odd core group, though if I replay I might purposely make 1st edition style characters.
But yes, still enjoying the game. I also like that there is no repetetive chanting when spellcasting. But overall I like the BG engine better.
I had a high-dex fighter with Combat Reflexes and a guisarme in a game a while ago (combat reflexes gives extra Attacks of Opportunity up to your dex mod, as opposed to a max of 1 per round), started the Lawful Good opening where you're surrounded by archers.
He was first, smacked an archer dead. Another archer tries to fire, but firing a (cross)bow in melee grants an attack of opportunity, smack, dead. And then another did the same, dead. And another, dead. He was vicious, and v. effective. Also helps that the reach allows him to stand behind other characters while stabbing enemies to bits.
Turuko is Lawful Evil (he's the contact for the Lawful Evil party Church of Hextor quest) and Kobort is of a Neutral alignment (TN or CN) from what I remember.
@Drugar : actually I gave the druidess weapon expertise, ( she of high dex, low str) and she carries a spear behi nd the front rank, which gives solid advantage in whichever edition.
The problem though is not in reach attacks, but a fighter stepping into the front rank alongside an engaged ally, and triggering an AoO somehow. I think if a game is to use AoOs, you need to use a grid. The movement is very imprecise in ToEE. But I also just don't like too many AoO to begin with. The mind numbingly slow, needlessly complicated and empty skill check rolling Pathfinder sessions I played in last year may have me biased. At least by computer, its quick.
AoO could be the basis for its own, non D&d combat system, maybe it already is. Melee combat is kind of a rolling series of AoO's, isnt it? But I dont like em in turn based combat.
Being a 10th-level fighter, however, would not save him from a TPK on their first foray into the Temple. After much poking around, and starting to think the place abandoned, the party encountered a few undead, the few Earth Temple Guardians, and then some gnolls and bugbears. They handled that fairly well, rounded a corner, and found more monsters, including an Ogre Chief that mowed them all down rather easily, with extra help from the cleave mechanic, which seems overpowered.
Clearly, some better stealth is in order. Prior to the TPK, it became evident a lack of thief skills might become problematic. I'd thought to cross-class those with the Bard, but this may not be enough.
So I think the party may be headed down to Hommlet to pick up a thief at the Inn there, and probably dump Zert again. Poor Zert.
Then they try to murder you.
So, it's not like you're dumping a kind and noble soul.
Good luck in the temple!
I didn't realize Zert was such a bastard, though I have a nice mono T1 aquired in a lot. It's cool to see bits of it, including many Homlett NPCs, the descriptions of foods at the Inn, etc. in the game. AFAIK, Homlet and the Moathouse are all Gygax, while the Temple itself is mostly Frank Mentzer. From the hands of the Masters...
But seeing D&D combat so displayed is also what is exacerbating my bias against 3rd Edition. I am rethinking also which game - BG or Temple, represents the combat better. Because in BG, your characters are doing stuff, albeit simply animated, for the full round, before the hit or miss registers - if I remember correctly - that is itself a good approximation of D&D combat - not this stand there like a stone business, swing, and wait to get whacked. Add in AoO , and various feats, and it looks even dumber.
So I'm thinking that maybe Temple does approximate how a lot of D&D combat was/is envisioned, and I do recall saying, many times back in the 1e days, "i run up to the goblin, and swing my two-handed sword at it". But we did also keep a sense of melee ensuing, which is what BG shows us, with an abstracted damage toll each round.
ToEE is a fairly brutal campaign so far. One of my 1E DM's used crits, negative Con=death, so the many combats with PC's laying on the ground and dying/bleeding out does in part remind me of the old days. You have a larger party than BG engaging often larger numbers of foes, critical hits abounding on all sides, and much hilarity ensuing. Such as the aforementioned Ogre Chief essentially hitting a grand slam with my entire front rank, including Otis the 10th level fighter - save for goddamn Zert, who was in rear guard. He got his in the Ogre's next swing, which also took out the Druidess and the Bard. It was a TPK for the ages really, one which I don't think I fully appreciated at the time. Six characters killed in two rounds by a rampaging, giant spiked club wielding Ogre. And the last, brutal swing mashing the tiny body of the screaming halfling sorcerer Fenris Twee into the stone. It was...beautiful.
the cover of ToEE says 'Gary Gygax with Frank Mentzer'
Wiki says the same...
how is it mainly F. Mentzer?
Edit: (*)the funny thing it does is created a separate folder BG folder inside a folder called compatibility files as it doesn't like Program Files to be altered. This can create problems with finding savegames, with modding and many other irritations that might be most easily avoided if everyone knew to avoid the Program Files with old games like these.
On the second level, they encountered grey ooze + gelatinous cube,ghouls, ghasts, a solitary ogre, a small pack of gnolls, and more undead. The Druidess now carries a +1 spear, and the characters have reached fourth level.
Otis, it turns out, will only go on one expedition, so no more 10th level NPC for this group.
The animations in this game are nice. The gelatinous cube was well done. Otis' high level maneuvers included a spin attack. The way a character draws a bow is realistic.
There is a lot ToEE gets right. While not as immersive as BG, the atmosphere is good. It's a fine tactical dungeon romp so far.
The fourth expedition was a PC rout. Again the strange AoO rules producing weirdly inconsistent results...you often just dont know if the PC is going to cross a "square" approaching a monster, because all theyve done is run up and attack. Seeing these rules in action really highlights how little sense they make. Why no AoO for all the quaffing of potions, if we're to use them at all, there is no greater opportunity, except maybe spellcasting.
Whatever. The Halfling sorcerer took invisibility for his first 2nd level spell, which was put to good use for scouting purposes. I was a little reserved, spellwise, in the bugbear encounter than got everyone killed. Next time we'll keep serving up the spells, the Druidess can do summoning, etc.
The way the Infinity Engine handles combat is much smoother....