you stomp NPC vampires like kobolds for a good chunk of the story.
You stomp also dragons, beholders and mind flyers, but only if you know how to play, and that is exactly why you stomp them. When I was a not experienced player the vampires was my nightmare, now they are like kobolds for me, just because I know how to play more effectively. I make one example, happened yesterday evening. My party was attacked by 3 vampires, one of them named, so high level, in a street of the town. I had no AoP or other gear that protects me from level drain, my cleric had not memorized the negative plane protection spell and my arcane casters could not cast as I didn't pay the CW (and fighting 3 vampires and 4 mages at the same time is a little too much for a party in SoA chap 2 with only 4 quests done). I had only 1 helm of charm protection, enchanted weapons to hit them and Haer Dalis, and obviously a thief, I love thieves... The thief spotted the vampires while hidden, the Blade went in sight of the undeads and activated defensive stance lowering his AC so the vampires could not hit him. Then while the 3 undeads was wasting time on him the whole party killed them fast, 2 backstabs from the thief and Valygar helped to speed up the process. No reloads, no one damaged, no one level drained. And almost no special gear since bards can not wear helmets (but you can put on him all the items that help him save against the domination spell throw). No reload needed and even no metaknowledge used since I had no clue that that particular encounter would happen in that place and moment. Easy like kobolds. But if I had played the 3 undeads and the AI my party the outcome would have been very different.
Thank you for the hearty chuckle I received upon reading the phrase "realistic vampire" used unironically.
Well, so as not to offend your sense of realism in supernatural creatures that don't exist, Hexxat has had a long time to get her urges under control (which still didn't stop her from ripping out Clara's throat in front of the party and making a bad first impression on many.
Good to know that we're both having fun at reading each other! I, for one, find cute that you limit the adjective "realistic" to something that you can touch. However, D&D has a very detailed rule set with dozens of books. In this contest, something can be realistic or not.
Now, she had a long time to control her hunger? Sorry but she is a relatively fresh vampire. That aside, you can't stop drinking blood as a vampire, even you want to.
That being said, not even once was mentioned how does she manage to keep herself alive. When or what does she hunt.
Yes. She has 20 strength, takes damage in sunlight, turns into a cloud when she reaches 0hp, and mentions her undead state in the majority of her dialogue. If anything, I think it's stressed too much.
Starting from the fact that 90% of the time she will carry a cloak unless you want to micromanage it constantly: you don't make any great use of her STR and you won't see her damaged by the sunlight. Or are you telling me that you roleplay by playing only at night?
What she says in her quite insipid dialogues (and most of all are there just if you romance her with a female char) doesn't explain why my vampire doesn't feed on anything.
Good to know that we're both having fun at reading each other! I, for one, find cute that you limit the adjective "realistic" to something that you can touch.
I limit the adjective "realistic" to things which are real. A category which does not include vampires.
However, D&D has a very detailed rule set with dozens of books. In this contest, something can be realistic or not.
Cool, I hate how Viconia is so unrealistic in getting magic resistance, since as dozens of books will reveal to you, drow lose their magic resistance when they dwell on the surface. So how often have you complained about that in the past couple of decades?
Heck, shall I start listing every unrealistic and wrong thing about NPC companions in this game, by those dozens of books? We'll be here for quite a while.
Now, she had a long time to control her hunger? Sorry but she is a relatively fresh vampire. That aside, you can't stop drinking blood as a vampire, even you want to.
She's centuries old, and vampires refrain from drinking blood on many occasions, including several times when you talk with Bodhi. They are sentient creatures with free will. This is also supported all over the AD&D multiverse (like with Jander Sunstar, who was in any case from Faerun originally). There are way more canonical "realistic" vampires than people want to acknowledge when they bitch about Hexxat.
That being said, not even once was mentioned how does she manage to keep herself alive. When or what does she hunt.
Actually, it's mentioned that she hunts when she needs to in a dialogue with Aerie (who is quite upset by it). There's also a confrontation with Jan over his niece. The rest of the time she presumably subsists on unlucky schlubs that attack the party.
I like that you don't even know how old she is and confidently stated that "not even once" was it mentioned when or what she hunts, which is completely untrue, and yet you still have such strong opinions about this character you don't actually know much about.
Starting from the fact that 90% of the time she will carry a cloak unless you want to micromanage it constantly: you don't make any great use of her STR and you won't see her damaged by the sunlight. Or are you telling me that you roleplay by playing only at night?
The majority of BGII takes place inside and underground. Combined with the fact that half the time it is night outside, I spent far more time with her full stats than her weakened ones. I in fact more than once only remembered to put the cloak on because she started taking damage, since I had to use it so rarely.
You stomp NPC vampires like kobolds because their AI is crap and because the game throws at you tons of items protecting against Charm/Domination and level drain, neutering their arsenal. A "legal" (by BG2 standards) vampire in the hands of the party would be ridiculous, almost nothing save ToB bosses is protected from level drain. This is why Valen throws at you demigods vampire hunters to compensate.
To be blunt, though, the reason nothing is protected against level drain is because there wasn't a vampire party member the first time around, and thus no easy way to make use of that weakness. If there'd been a vampire NPC to begin with, that wouldn't be so.
While i could give @Ayekie some points, most of his early statements are focused in force his argument instead of present it.
The ironic start of your posts with the "realistic vampire" thing shows a desire to humiliate your adversary in the argument you were preparing.
Serious dude, we wish to hear you point, so you don't need to make fun of others points of view to make yours to look better.
Since we're a long way off topic, i will get in:
Baldur's Gate isn't a trivial campaing of D&D, it's a story that ends with main char getting the option of godhood. So we're throw into a bunch of overpowered items along the way? Indeed, but that's most than natural.
Vampires are overpowered and AI is the only reason they're weak? Not always. A raged warrior with proper weaponry can hack 'n slash them good. I see much more point in overpower on Baldur's Gate games than Icewind dale for example, were we're all some random people that happen to meet togheter in the same tavern and some gamehours later we're breaking the higher levels of Dungeons and Dragons.
As i said into an early topic, Hexxat lack vampire juice for me. The good and the bad juice. I hope some day they give her weaknes to healing spells, so healing will damage her instead and cause wounds spells would heal her. Also some vampire berserker kind of buff to level drain for a time would be good. My clerics should blast her if they turn undead by mistake with her near, what doesn't happen atm.
and...
above all, the game should trully recognize her as a vampire. Specially those involved with clerigy, which should serious change most of the quests of BG2, for example:
Unseeing eye (An priest of helm would NEVER accept to give that quest for a party with a vampire, but a Talos cleric wouldn't have a problem with it). Bodhi/Aran quests, banters and NPCs related interaction should have a LOT more impact. Some peasants could be killed through banter dialogues with hexxat in the party.
You stomp NPC vampires like kobolds because their AI is crap and because the game throws at you tons of items protecting against Charm/Domination and level drain, neutering their arsenal. A "legal" (by BG2 standards) vampire in the hands of the party would be ridiculous, almost nothing save ToB bosses is protected from level drain. This is why Valen throws at you demigods vampire hunters to compensate.
To be blunt, though, the reason nothing is protected against level drain is because there wasn't a vampire party member the first time around, and thus no easy way to make use of that weakness. If there'd been a vampire NPC to begin with, that wouldn't be so.
Sure, but 1. There's very little lore reason for a lot of stuff to be immune to level drain, this would make BG2 an Improved Anvil kind of guessing game 2. Energy Drain is already one of the most wasteful Lv9 spells as it is 3. This wasn't really what the argument was about
Vampires are overpowered and AI is the only reason they're weak? Not always. A raged warrior with proper weaponry can hack 'n slash them good.
This has nothing do to with vampires being weak but with Rage being a cheesy "I Win" button. Seriously, Rage has no business protecting against level drain nor Imprisonment.
While i could give @Ayekie some points, most of his early statements are focused in force his argument instead of present it.
The ironic start of your posts with the "realistic vampire" thing shows a desire to humiliate your adversary in the argument you were preparing.
Serious dude, we wish to hear you point, so you don't need to make fun of others points of view to make yours to look better.
I'm pointing out the self-contradictory absurdity of the point of view. There is no such thing as a "realistic vampire". And virtually every party member in Baldur's Gate violates the rules of AD&D 2ed in ways both great and small. Thus, criticism of Hexxat on either of these points is invalid.
And since Hexxat gets criticised on these points a lot, often very harshly, I give short shrift to the arguments. If you're concerned about people "forcing" their argument rather than presenting it, then I apologise for my testiness. It's difficult to remember sometimes that some people are seeing an argument for the first time when you're seeing it for the tenth.
above all, the game should trully recognize her as a vampire. Specially those involved with clerigy, which should serious change most of the quests of BG2, for example:
Unseeing eye (An priest of helm would NEVER accept to give that quest for a party with a vampire, but a Talos cleric wouldn't have a problem with it). Bodhi/Aran quests, banters and NPCs related interaction should have a LOT more impact. Some peasants could be killed through banter dialogues with hexxat in the party.
Among other possibilities.
A lot of this isn't a bad idea in theory (and I do agree Hexxat should be affected by turn undead if she's in the party, dominate undead perhaps not), but would involve Hexxat being far, far more tied into the game world than any other NPC (who usually get, at most, a scene or two relating to their background/history/affiliations). Aside from being more work for the devs, it would likely lead to yet more backlash and accusations of special snowflake-ism against Hexxat.
As is, she is a relatively normal NPC with some special powers and a few unique interactions - like pretty much everyone else.
Though really, should a priest of Helm be giving a quest to any evil-aligned character? A drow? A blackguard? A murderer? A child of the god of murder? I'd rather just assume that Hexxat, if present, conceals her nature in some way, the same way other problematic individuals can. (Really, she could have just waited outside if you wanted to talk about it in a narrative sense.)
Edit: To follow up and address your original post: No, Hexxat shouldn't be immune to confusion, because she's a different type of vampire than Bodhi et al, with different abilities and weaknesses. Whether that is because of her experience trapped in the tomb, or because she was born of a different vampire line to begin with, or for some other reason. So I wouldn't preface anything about Hexxat "Because other vampires in the game do/get/are vulnerable to this, Hexxat should too." It should be based on thematic appropriateness and game balance, instead. Hexxat has strong domination abilities, and thus might be resistant to mental confusion, but nothing suggests she should be immune to it.
Though really, should a priest of Helm be giving a quest to any evil-aligned character? A drow? A blackguard? A murderer? A child of the god of murder? I'd rather just assume that Hexxat, if present, conceals her nature in some way, the same way other problematic individuals can.
The Helm church is neutral aligned and usually is also neutral in the fight between the other 2 faiths, unless one of them is prevailing, is getting too powerful. And that is the only reason why they ask you to intervene in a certain quest, siding with Lathander. Their goal is balance and law, not goodness, as the neutral cleric stronghold quest shows so well. They intervene also about the new rising faith, sending you to investigate if is a proper faith, not to outright destroy it. And as neutral there is no difference if in the party there is an evil drow or blackguard or a good paladin. A vampire is different, is not only evil, but is not natural, there are good reasons why the priest of Helm should act differently if a vampire is in the party, not because of his evilness, but for him being a not natural soulless perversion of nature.
Though really, should a priest of Helm be giving a quest to any evil-aligned character? A drow? A blackguard? A murderer? A child of the god of murder? I'd rather just assume that Hexxat, if present, conceals her nature in some way, the same way other problematic individuals can.
The Helm church is neutral aligned and usually is also neutral in the fight between the other 2 faiths, unless one of them is prevailing, is getting too powerful. And that is the only reason why they ask you to intervene in a certain quest, siding with Lathander. Their goal is balance and law, not goodness, as the neutral cleric stronghold quest shows so well. They intervene also about the new rising faith, sending you to investigate if is a proper faith, not to outright destroy it. And as neutral there is no difference if in the party there is an evil drow or blackguard or a good paladin. A vampire is different, is not only evil, but is not natural, there are good reasons why the priest of Helm should act differently if a vampire is in the party, not because of his evilness, but for him being a not natural soulless perversion of nature.
How natural is a child of the God of Murder? Probably not much more than a vampire. How is making a pact with a demon not a perversion? I'd say a vampire (against her own will, to top it all) is not worse than that as a perversion.
Besides, one of Oisig's first sentence when you speak to him in the temple is "We know of your reputation, it does not matter anymore. You'll be judged based on how you serve" or something along those lines, no matter what your reputation is. He does not care who or what you are, his role is to maintain balance.
True, but we are in SoA where only few people knows that you are a child of the God of murder, there are reasons why the Harpers can know that, due to their relation with Gorion, but afaik no reason why Oisig is supposed to know it. And he is also supposed to not know the deal between Dorn and the demon. He is also talking of your reputation, that is a different thing from having in the party vampires or people that make deals with demons, is more related to how did you acted previously in the game. Imo if Hexxat can disguise her being a vampire, thing that maybe is possible, as in the case of Valen it is not evident to you when you first met her, your argumentation is sound. I don't know if an high level cleric like him has ways to detect the presence of undeads, he surely can detect evil and turn undeads, but detect undeads is different.
It's more a quetion of undead x clerics here. Well, it's not Kelemvor, so maybe a vampire that restrain herself would be tolerated at the eyes of a helmite.
Comments
When I was a not experienced player the vampires was my nightmare, now they are like kobolds for me, just because I know how to play more effectively.
I make one example, happened yesterday evening. My party was attacked by 3 vampires, one of them named, so high level, in a street of the town. I had no AoP or other gear that protects me from level drain, my cleric had not memorized the negative plane protection spell and my arcane casters could not cast as I didn't pay the CW (and fighting 3 vampires and 4 mages at the same time is a little too much for a party in SoA chap 2 with only 4 quests done).
I had only 1 helm of charm protection, enchanted weapons to hit them and Haer Dalis, and obviously a thief, I love thieves...
The thief spotted the vampires while hidden, the Blade went in sight of the undeads and activated defensive stance lowering his AC so the vampires could not hit him. Then while the 3 undeads was wasting time on him the whole party killed them fast, 2 backstabs from the thief and Valygar helped to speed up the process.
No reloads, no one damaged, no one level drained. And almost no special gear since bards can not wear helmets (but you can put on him all the items that help him save against the domination spell throw).
No reload needed and even no metaknowledge used since I had no clue that that particular encounter would happen in that place and moment. Easy like kobolds.
But if I had played the 3 undeads and the AI my party the outcome would have been very different.
I, for one, find cute that you limit the adjective "realistic" to something that you can touch.
However, D&D has a very detailed rule set with dozens of books.
In this contest, something can be realistic or not.
Now, she had a long time to control her hunger?
Sorry but she is a relatively fresh vampire. That aside, you can't stop drinking blood as a vampire, even you want to.
That being said, not even once was mentioned how does she manage to keep herself alive. When or what does she hunt.
Starting from the fact that 90% of the time she will carry a cloak unless you want to micromanage it constantly: you don't make any great use of her STR and you won't see her damaged by the sunlight. Or are you telling me that you roleplay by playing only at night?
What she says in her quite insipid dialogues (and most of all are there just if you romance her with a female char) doesn't explain why my vampire doesn't feed on anything.
Her game mechanics are weak, deal with it.
Heck, shall I start listing every unrealistic and wrong thing about NPC companions in this game, by those dozens of books? We'll be here for quite a while. She's centuries old, and vampires refrain from drinking blood on many occasions, including several times when you talk with Bodhi. They are sentient creatures with free will. This is also supported all over the AD&D multiverse (like with Jander Sunstar, who was in any case from Faerun originally). There are way more canonical "realistic" vampires than people want to acknowledge when they bitch about Hexxat. Actually, it's mentioned that she hunts when she needs to in a dialogue with Aerie (who is quite upset by it). There's also a confrontation with Jan over his niece. The rest of the time she presumably subsists on unlucky schlubs that attack the party.
I like that you don't even know how old she is and confidently stated that "not even once" was it mentioned when or what she hunts, which is completely untrue, and yet you still have such strong opinions about this character you don't actually know much about. The majority of BGII takes place inside and underground. Combined with the fact that half the time it is night outside, I spent far more time with her full stats than her weakened ones. I in fact more than once only remembered to put the cloak on because she started taking damage, since I had to use it so rarely.
The ironic start of your posts with the "realistic vampire" thing shows a desire to humiliate your adversary in the argument you were preparing.
Serious dude, we wish to hear you point, so you don't need to make fun of others points of view to make yours to look better.
Since we're a long way off topic, i will get in:
Baldur's Gate isn't a trivial campaing of D&D, it's a story that ends with main char getting the option of godhood. So we're throw into a bunch of overpowered items along the way? Indeed, but that's most than natural.
Vampires are overpowered and AI is the only reason they're weak? Not always. A raged warrior with proper weaponry can hack 'n slash them good. I see much more point in overpower on Baldur's Gate games than Icewind dale for example, were we're all some random people that happen to meet togheter in the same tavern and some gamehours later we're breaking the higher levels of Dungeons and Dragons.
As i said into an early topic, Hexxat lack vampire juice for me. The good and the bad juice. I hope some day they give her weaknes to healing spells, so healing will damage her instead and cause wounds spells would heal her. Also some vampire berserker kind of buff to level drain for a time would be good. My clerics should blast her if they turn undead by mistake with her near, what doesn't happen atm.
and...
above all, the game should trully recognize her as a vampire. Specially those involved with clerigy, which should serious change most of the quests of BG2, for example:
Unseeing eye (An priest of helm would NEVER accept to give that quest for a party with a vampire, but a Talos cleric wouldn't have a problem with it).
Bodhi/Aran quests, banters and NPCs related interaction should have a LOT more impact.
Some peasants could be killed through banter dialogues with hexxat in the party.
Among other possibilities.
1. There's very little lore reason for a lot of stuff to be immune to level drain, this would make BG2 an Improved Anvil kind of guessing game
2. Energy Drain is already one of the most wasteful Lv9 spells as it is
3. This wasn't really what the argument was about This has nothing do to with vampires being weak but with Rage being a cheesy "I Win" button. Seriously, Rage has no business protecting against level drain nor Imprisonment.
And since Hexxat gets criticised on these points a lot, often very harshly, I give short shrift to the arguments. If you're concerned about people "forcing" their argument rather than presenting it, then I apologise for my testiness. It's difficult to remember sometimes that some people are seeing an argument for the first time when you're seeing it for the tenth. A lot of this isn't a bad idea in theory (and I do agree Hexxat should be affected by turn undead if she's in the party, dominate undead perhaps not), but would involve Hexxat being far, far more tied into the game world than any other NPC (who usually get, at most, a scene or two relating to their background/history/affiliations). Aside from being more work for the devs, it would likely lead to yet more backlash and accusations of special snowflake-ism against Hexxat.
As is, she is a relatively normal NPC with some special powers and a few unique interactions - like pretty much everyone else.
Though really, should a priest of Helm be giving a quest to any evil-aligned character? A drow? A blackguard? A murderer? A child of the god of murder? I'd rather just assume that Hexxat, if present, conceals her nature in some way, the same way other problematic individuals can. (Really, she could have just waited outside if you wanted to talk about it in a narrative sense.)
Edit: To follow up and address your original post: No, Hexxat shouldn't be immune to confusion, because she's a different type of vampire than Bodhi et al, with different abilities and weaknesses. Whether that is because of her experience trapped in the tomb, or because she was born of a different vampire line to begin with, or for some other reason. So I wouldn't preface anything about Hexxat "Because other vampires in the game do/get/are vulnerable to this, Hexxat should too." It should be based on thematic appropriateness and game balance, instead. Hexxat has strong domination abilities, and thus might be resistant to mental confusion, but nothing suggests she should be immune to it.
one of them is prevailing, is getting too powerful. And that is the only reason why they ask you to intervene in a certain quest, siding with Lathander. Their goal is balance and law, not goodness, as the neutral cleric stronghold quest shows so well.
They intervene also about the new rising faith, sending you to investigate if is a proper faith, not to outright destroy it. And as neutral there is no difference if in the party there is an evil drow or blackguard or a good paladin. A vampire is different, is not only evil, but is not natural, there are good reasons why the priest of Helm should act differently if a vampire is in the party, not because of his evilness, but for him being a not natural soulless perversion of nature.
How is making a pact with a demon not a perversion?
I'd say a vampire (against her own will, to top it all) is not worse than that as a perversion.
Besides, one of Oisig's first sentence when you speak to him in the temple is "We know of your reputation, it does not matter anymore. You'll be judged based on how you serve" or something along those lines, no matter what your reputation is. He does not care who or what you are, his role is to maintain balance.
And he is also supposed to not know the deal between Dorn and the demon.
He is also talking of your reputation, that is a different thing from having in the party vampires or people that make deals with demons, is more related to how did you acted previously in the game.
Imo if Hexxat can disguise her being a vampire, thing that maybe is possible, as in the case of Valen it is not evident to you when you first met her, your argumentation is sound.
I don't know if an high level cleric like him has ways to detect the presence of undeads, he surely can detect evil and turn undeads, but detect undeads is different.