I've tested it, and I think wizard slayer is actually quite good
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The class was done several horrible disservices originally. before the game was patched wiz spayer couldn't even drink healing potions. Before the fix pack which EE integrated, it didn't work properly at range. And for a very long time, I believed the documentation that said 10% (when it was actually 25%) arcane spell failure on hit.
so with this new information I built some test characters and tested the wizard slayer on them.
Well, the wiz slayer is still not terribly good at melee with it's slightly lower AC, and inability to drink and wear the things that keep it safe from crowd cntrol magic such as sleep and confusion, and his thac0 is going to suffer in the long run if he were to make up up with UAI HLA by dualing to thief. He can shoot things well enough, so he's got archery going for him. Surprisingly, the best kind of wiz slayer archer is one dualed to mage. Did you know that melfs minute metoers is a +5 throwing weapon that he can throw as if he had grand mastery? And then when he gets energy blades HLA, he can throw 20 of the discs with a +10 thac0, 9 times per round for a lot of damage and spell failure? He can't wear amulet of power, but he can wear robe of vecna.
Spell failure only partly affects triggers and contingencies. I had the difficulty slider on easiest, and kept hitting the mage with fists a lot. Even with 100% spell faiulure, 2/3 stored spells would succeed each time with only the one failing to cast. Game would probably be too easy if the wiz slayer could make epic level mages completely useless, but making it possible to fail 1/3 sequenced and contingent spells is certainly worth having a few less slots than the kensai/mage and a little less damage. It can make all the difference between you and your group getting wiped out or winning the fight.
so with this new information I built some test characters and tested the wizard slayer on them.
Well, the wiz slayer is still not terribly good at melee with it's slightly lower AC, and inability to drink and wear the things that keep it safe from crowd cntrol magic such as sleep and confusion, and his thac0 is going to suffer in the long run if he were to make up up with UAI HLA by dualing to thief. He can shoot things well enough, so he's got archery going for him. Surprisingly, the best kind of wiz slayer archer is one dualed to mage. Did you know that melfs minute metoers is a +5 throwing weapon that he can throw as if he had grand mastery? And then when he gets energy blades HLA, he can throw 20 of the discs with a +10 thac0, 9 times per round for a lot of damage and spell failure? He can't wear amulet of power, but he can wear robe of vecna.
Spell failure only partly affects triggers and contingencies. I had the difficulty slider on easiest, and kept hitting the mage with fists a lot. Even with 100% spell faiulure, 2/3 stored spells would succeed each time with only the one failing to cast. Game would probably be too easy if the wiz slayer could make epic level mages completely useless, but making it possible to fail 1/3 sequenced and contingent spells is certainly worth having a few less slots than the kensai/mage and a little less damage. It can make all the difference between you and your group getting wiped out or winning the fight.
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And even with WSR I think that some restrictions are a little too much.
Anyway, the trick to play a WS is having lots of weapons with status immunity effects (like Lilacor or Spider's Bane). Combining this with MR and he can be a hell of a decoy to wizards.
I've played a WS in BGEE. Once I got the Cloak of Balduran everything became too easy. My main strategy was to let wizards unload their spell books in me while I killed the minions and fighters/archers.
IMHO any item that enhances magic resistance should be allowed to the WS. And I would add Potion of Clarity on top of that (as it simulates a priest spell - Chaotic Commands).
Potions of Explosions and Oils of Fiery Burning should be allowed too as they are alchemical, not magical.
Lots of armor/weapons provide protection/immunity from status effects, btw.
Much of that has to do not with the WS itself, but with support components. For example, Fire Seeds will apply the penalty in an area of effect, and penetrate just about anything - meaning that as soon as you can hand them to your WS, any lich is effectively dead in three seconds flat. Mage fights become a non-issue, and since those are a major part of BG2's difficulty, the game becomes dramatically easier to beat.
However, once you introduce mods that change certain behaviors (like the aforementioned Fire Seeds) WS returns to obscurity. Once you no longer penetrate mage defenses at will, you're back to the whole if-I-can-hit-it-it-dies dilemma that is the core paradox behind the WS's lacking effectiveness.
There is hope, though. Why I have not yet had the time to test extensively, it does appear that Legacy of Bhaal mode may lead to a redemption, and make the WS a fairly balanced choice. Because of the large HP pools present in that mode, mages don't simply die the second their defenses drop. They have time to recover and rebuff, and remain dangerous even after a brief window of vulnerability. That in turn means a WS could step in and make sure that you really are slaying the wizard, as it were. Preliminary testing has been promising, and once my family leaves me alone again I might even get to complete it
The class's description says that he excels at hunting down spellcasters of all kinds...
Anyone has any info about this?
Imo is really good even in vanilla single class, what he is supposed to do he does very well.
The point, as @Lord_Tansheron told, is that depening on setup either it's close to useless or it's ridiculously overpowered.
From experience (in vanilla), He completely trivialises almost any fight with a wizard with a single dart of stunning/wounding. I haven't played through SoA/ToB much with him yet. But with Cloak of Stars + Crimson Dart there isn't really any moment I cannot handle any particular encounter (storing darts +5 in ammobelt). And as with any Wizard Slayer Thief, the power-spike with UAI, getting access to Archer Eyes is pretty swell. (And Wizard Scrolls
I might try the Wizard Slayer / Mage at somepoint (for energy blades)
My main focus as a Thief would be Set Traps and Detect Illusions.
Any thoughts and tips?
PS: I know that WS -> Thief is best.
If you want to Thief->WS, it doesn't really change much from how you'd play a single-class WS, imo. None of the thief skills have any particular interaction with WS, but of course they're useful on their own as always. The most defining factor of the combo will still be the WS, and you won't really do things much differently.
At the end you get a wizard slayer with detect illusions, very powerful, some traps and a backstabbing multiplyer that can be useful even if he hes not points in hide in shadows, at the cost of a potion or a low level mage spell. 3x dualing at 7 that is enough for set traps and illusions, and 4x if you wait until lev 9 (150 detect illusions in this case). And fully functional very early, almost no down time.
He will retain the ws limitations on equipping items, but the opposite dual, ws->thief, that is better, has some disadvantages. Dualing at 9 he loose 1/2 Apr and at 13 takes forever, then you have to reach 3Mxp on the thief class to have UAI.
My opinion is that having rogue hp, at least for the first 7 levels combined with item limitations is a steep price to pay. If the char is mainly used ranged the problem is not so heavy, he will have +2 apr and GM dmg bonus, when he hits ws lev13, maybe with GM in slings and a strength enhancing item, he will be very effective. When he gets GWW even better, I did not the calculations but I suppose something like 300 dpr ranged. He will have also a good MR in the end.
@Raduziel Give it a try. A fully functional ws with detect illusions, some traps and some backstabbing potential, that brings also 25% spell failure, with very little down time, and a really good ranged potential is really interesting.
But be careful when you send him in mlee, he will lack some AC due to item limitation and he will have the hp of a rogue (but maybe on this I am biased as I never activate the option of rolling the max hp leveling up, so my toons have maybe 30% less hp on average).
1---the other fighter probably want to do some good mlee damage, loosing hp is a problem and when he detects illusions he is not fighting until the invisibility is dispelled. Having some traps and some backstabbing potential is not enough to compensate the lower hp.
2---the ws is mainly a mage killer, dispelling invisibility is a real bonus for him as he can now counter one of the other mage defenses, the mages who use mislead and pi are no longer a problem. Also a backstab, that apply 25% casting failure, is more useful for a dedicated antimage. And his antimage function, when he is not backstabbing, is better done ranged. He can easily switch from the +1 apr bow, for 100% casting failure/round, to sling with GM when dpr is needed. There is synergy in it, the lost hp is not a big problem and he gains a couple of useful things that make him an even better antimage.
The loss of exceptional strength and fewer HP (d6 and no +4 due to Constitution).
But I'll give it a try after my Enchanter run.
Another thing: it's better to use several weapons or go GM in one? I see darts (stunning/wounding), slings (the awesome Everard's), shortbows (Tuigan) and longswords (Namarra/Daystar/Equalizer) as a potential. If the GM rote what weapon?
PS: it will be a full saga run.
about the loss of exceptional strength is only a problem if you don't have a mage to cast you the strength spell that gives you 18750 and lasts a long time.
you can not use the str gauntlets but (if I am not wrong) you can use girdles, and the exceptional strength is anyway lost as sun that you use the tome, I think that you can live with a normal 18 until then. as I told ranged is better (I am assuming that you don't play solo) and as the slings get str bonus damage (one with normal bullets, all them with enchanted ones) I will put gm on that weapon, even more damage and +1/2 apr more, that is important as the sling has the better damage potential x hit but only 1apr.
And late game a sling with gww, str damage and gm damage is devastating.
darts are good as apr, but not as dmg, proficiency or maybe specialization is fine, as you would probably hit often anyway and the goal is apply the spell failure.
Tugian is a good alternative to darts and later Gesen loaded with regular ammunition stack his native damage with the one from the arrow, at lev 13 and with GM you get 5 apr with it, so from that moment is as good as a sling, at least until you can use the sling with gww.
as I don't suggest to go mlee often with that build specialization with mlee weapons can be enough, and long swords are good weapons from the initial game to the final battle.
If you plan to start from bg1 I suggest to dual at lev 4 or, you get 100 in detect illusions and in the end you have better hp as you get the fighter roll for the remaining levels. Some traps and a backstab that probably you will not use so often are not so important. Dualing at 7 starting in bg1 takes forever. Or eventually play the first game as a thief and dual in SoA. if you include also sod is different, but since I don't want to be spoiled about that game until I will try it I can not tel you more about it.
Edit: as Gesen is a +4 bow it works also with enemies that darts and bullets can not touch or the few ones that use mantle.
Now, with your pips in daggers you could easily dual to Thief and get the UAI later on to wear the Human Flesh Armor +5 and boost your magic resistance, as well as wear any other magic resistance items you want. Some forgo the daggers and put points in two-handed swords for Carsomyr, but it takes time to pay off and is a bit cheesy.
For the BG2 daggers there was the limited wish quest one with low enchantment and STR damage, and the Underdark one with elemental DMG added, that hits as +3, but no STR damage.
A kensai could use something to fight ranged, and as they are functionally bastard swords with +1APR, they was still a good choice, but with limitations. Now a kensai with a STR belt is almost as good as an archer, on every enemy that requires +3 or less, thing that, as they are supposed to be prevented to use ranged weapons, looks silly.
The sense of the class, no ranged weapons and no armor, braciers and shield, is a build that can do amazing mlee DMG, at the price of having few protection:
"This class is also known as the "Sword Saint", and consists of a warrior who has been specially trained to be one with his sword. They are deadly, fast and trained to fight without encumbrance".
Edit: And in not EE is not possible to use them mlee equipping an of hand weapon, now is possible, reaching 5 APR with a lev7 Fighter with specialization. 2 base + 1/2 lev7 + 1/2 specialization +2 DW offhand a +1APR weapon =5APR, in not EE, even with lev 13 and GM, a kensai could not go over 4APR. So a big mlee boost for a kensai that chose to prioritize GM on an other weapon and less than 13 dualed kensages. Almost as good as archers ranged and among the best mlee, potentially with 10APR improved hasted from the very moment that they complete the dual or 6APR at lev7 for single class.
The WS duals have a similar boost compared to not EE ones.