Problems with Liches
CARV3R
Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 23
Because liches are effectively immune to Level 5 and below spells, is there a non-cheese way (i.e. wait for Protection From Magical Weapons/Stoneskin to wear off) to hit them with melee/ranged weapon attacks, or is it just magical attacks/damage mitigation only after the Timestop?
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if you have an inquisitor on your team you can try their dispel magic,
but basically other than that you will just have to wait I shappose
A high level cleric can turn them.
If you dispel the spell protections beforehand, creeping doom will work wonders.
High level area effect spells like the other poster suggested work:death fog, incendiary cloud, fire storm, meteor swarm, etc. Even if they are protected from the elements, they will get spell disruption. Horrid wilting works too, be sure to remove mirror images with true sight (lvl 6 mage version)
Summon monsters to catch their more devastating spells. They always have a death spell or two, so have a lot of summons and introduce them one by one.
When their pfmw is down, a single dispel arrow can dispel all of the stoneskins. Also when pfmw is down, a wizard slayer can cripple them.
Plus, you can even target improved invis target (like with every item).
I'm playing LoB this time around so magic doesn't do that much damage to individual targets, but I didn't think to get Wand of Spell Strike from Watchers before I go screw with Kangaxx and his subs (I don't currently have a cleric in this party as I always found their endgame lacking past buffing the party). Current charname is an Archer. Not yet, i messed around with mods back in the day but might pick it up for my next play through as solo dual class from warrior (@ level 13) to cleric on core difficulty.
Solo wild mage was a joke, absolutely slaughtered everything, but was really fun.
The elemental damage that some weapons have, like FoA, pierce trough the stoneskin, damaging them and disrupting their casting, and with enough APR the stoneskin wears off faster than PFMW. It works on liches but not on demiliches, luckily vanilla damiliches don't use mirror images, or if the liches are protected against divination spells. The only reliable way in that case is the detect illusions ability of a thief, even if in your vanilla game that is not needed.
A lich is undead, and there is no one better at combating the undead than a cleric. Make sure to use bolt of glory, however, only if their protections have worn off (if you've been fighting them that long). As it's a single target spell it's vulnerable to being caught in spell traps and deflectors. Worse yet, if the lich has spell turning, you're own searing bolt of death could end up coming right back at you.
However if you get a clear shot it does extra damage against the undead. It will be hard punching through the liches saves, though, as they're immune to greater malison and doom, but then liches are supposed to be hard.
Hopefully I remember this all correctly, as I've not tried some of this in while. Liches are optional and I usually just skip them.
It's also possible to harrass liches into using up their weapons protections. Sooner or later they will have to fall back on mantle or improved mantle, at which point you can pelt them with minute meteors (non SCS), or chew them to shreds with summons that have highly enchanted claw attacks, like the totemic druid's spirit animals (if you have one). Highly recommend taking a totemic druid on a playthrough at some point if you haven't already; they can outright destroy just about any mage in the game. Summon the wolves, howl at the moon, look for (imp.) mantle in the message bar then go to town. Pre-spellhold, minute meteors or summons are your few options against Mantle.
Some weapons available for purchase in the game give bonuses against the undead, allowing them a modified enchantment level to scrape over the bar set by improved mantle, as well, giving your fighters a chance.
Aside from that, a fully protected lich requires carpet bombing. I'm not sure, but I think the necklace of missles (purchaseable in Trademeet after the Druid Grove and Djinni quests are finished) bypasses spell immunities because it's level 0, or some such, though I may be mis-remembering.
Holy Word strikes as a level 7 spell and does the same, though it can't affect Rakshasas, who are immune to level 7 and below. The 50% spell failure from Holy Word stacks, so two castings will disable the lich for 10 rounds.
So I say again: Nicky @#$%ing Verona.... I mean...
Holy @#$%ing Word.
USE IT.
I was thinking about the spell failure when I mentioned it... but it stacks? [i]Nice[/i].
But with enough knowledge and the right gear almost everything you find in the game is not terribly difficult, and that is why experienced players use mods, build charnames with low stats and solo with them, use XP reducing mods or take a no rest or no reload approach.
But for the new players, specially if they want to fight some battles at low level and don't want to use easy tactics or certain items (shield of Balduran, scroll of protection from undeads or AoP anyone?) liches, vampires, beholders and mind flyers can be very difficult to fight.
Of those I would say that , without the shield or cloak and without abusing of fog of war, only the beholders remain difficult for the experienced players.
I kind of thought about randomizing the items, but decided not to use every mod at once to motivate me for another play through.
Is not a matter of just using more healing potions.
The lich in the docks is really nasty, well protected and not easy to reach first dispell you and bombs you with spells, than uses a BBoD during a TS and cuts you into pieces. There each lich and his brother uses smart spellcasting and teleport field, a strong demon is spawned with him, the kind of demon that spawns other ones if you are not fast to kill him, and when you can trigger the lich spawning traps are prevented as minor foe is spawned just a moment before and take the damage of the traps. They use also widely reallyforcespell script for casting that make it not disruptable. With low levels parties killing a lich is still doable, but not easy.
I have to check if the lich in the docs component of Tactics mod is compatible with EE, now I don't remember, I read the topic on Tactics and EE long ago and I remember only that some of the components are compatible. If that one is imo is worth to give it a try.
EDIT: here is the topic about tactics and ee if someone is interested in trying a such old school mod.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41242/tactics-mod-bg2ee-compatibility-conversion-and-beta-test/p1
EDIT 2: and
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/48217/scsii-tactics-in-bg2ee
There are quite a few spawns where you get a lich and a few powerful melee opponents and maybe I just suck but I sure find them quite tricky. If I have access to 2-3 arcane casters and preferably a wand of spell striking and 100% detect illusion I can usually pull it of, but not until my casters have access to level 7 spells does it start feeling somewhat safe.
One of the problems of playing no reload is that you have to stick to what you know that works, as a single error can be game over. Unless someone is exceptionally gifted, very few people are. And this doesn't help if you want to improve.
Let me suggest to alternate runs where you reload and experiment, maybe reloading more than one time to compare different tactics, with no reload ones when you make good use of what you have learned.
And even then, you can still get screwed over, if you're unlucky. Malison followed by a 3x Chaos Spell Trigger is a nasty combo. There's another one who will cast Wish to get a double length alacrity Time Stop and then starts to rain down an endless barrage of damage spells on you, *after* his first regular Time Stop.
Chaos is not effective against protected enemies, and a player can have items or spells to protect from it way before his party reach a lich like level.
Time stop is quite ineffective when no enemy is in sight or the enemies in sight are protected against what the caster of TS can do to them, as the eventual dispelling take place only at the end of TS. Even if is true that a double length TS lasts more than lets say PFMW, so a double length TS caster can damage an enemy protected with PFMW and against fire using MMM. But if only a summon or few ones are in sight usually even a double TS has only lesser effects on the outcome of a lich battle.
All this require tactical wisdom, and a little metagame knowledge.
But I am convinced that having very high levels is not a pre requisite to a successful no reload lich battle, even a modded one.
I want to post a YT movie of a Charname Sorcerer soloing the Twisted rune, not modded, right out of the Irenicus initial dungeon, at lev 9, when a sorcerer is not the powerful one he becomes later, and also an other when a low level soloer kills the Fallen Deva of Tactics mod, that you find in the Irenicus dungeon, where no special equipment or high level are obtained.
Also if you are talking of SCS liches, and the movies show different situations, they show how tactics and good use of what you can have available are more important than uber equipment and level.
SCS randomizes Triggers and Contingencies. Sure, if you are willing to constantly metagame to the max, and always buff up to the extreme, because you as the player knows what your characters don't,you can have an easy time.
Still, there is always the chance of unlucky save rolls, or that something happens you didn't think of before.
PfMW does nothing for you, if that Lich uses his super Time Stop to rain down HW, Skull Traps, 3x Flame Arrow from a Sequencer and similar stuff on your non-mage PC.
Not sure, what you are trying to prove with a vid of prepared Solo-Sorc who exactly knows what is going to happen.
I assume that if someone wants to fight in a no reload situation a SCS lich, furthermore if he do it at low-medium level, is wise to always buff up to the extreme, and also use at the best all the metagame knowledge. that is useful even if SCS randomizes Triggers and Contingencies.
To have a non-mage PC exposed to possible HW, Skull Traps, 3x Flame Arrow from a Sequencer imo is not wise, unless you protect him in other way, is not to be a strong tactical player. A shield completely protects from flame arrows, a belt and other items help to survive HW, not self cast protections of mages and clerics can be useful, there are ways to disrupt liches, maybe only after taking down some protections, but before is not wise at all to even let the lich know that not protected PCs exist. And I am not talking of potions.
All can be dispelled on a not mage, but is an error to have a buffed PC exposed to be dispelled if he can not protect himself from the dispelling, DM and RM have a quite small AoE. Having a PC dispelled is a tactical error, he should not have been there at all. And if dispelled a PC must be withdraw from the battle and buffed again, if you keep him in sight of the enemy, knowing that he can do those things, is only your fault.
My point is that high level and good ST that a high level grants are useful, but if the player use at the best what he can have, they are not a pre requisite. And they don't warrant the success in a no reload, as good ST is not equal to automatic save. Even with ST that grant automatic save a GM can cause a fail.
The purpose of the movies, and I was clear saying that they deal with different situations, is only to show how "impossible" situations, like fighting a lev19 cleric and his summoned deva in Irenicus dungeon with a conjurer, or taking the SoTM staff right out of there with a Sorcerer, can be solved if good tactics and good use of what you can legally have at disposal are adopted.
EDIT: And in both the cases no cheesy/easy tactics like hiding in the fog war and waiting for enemy protections to expire, or bombing with AoE spells and wands from the fog of war, was not used, even if the rune mage is killed using an AoE spell.
EDIT2, under spoiler ad I have already created a huge textwall
About the conjurer it has to be told that the cleric cast TS (True sight , not timestop) and then gate the Deva, then as the cleric continue to try to damage the Deva cast firestorm, that usually alone decimates parties.
notice how the TS is disrupted as some self buffs, mirror image and blur, are essential to survive to the cleric. and how staked webs and gm are used to web the Deva, that probably would have no problem at all with a single web. And the MMM are used only in the moments when the deva is webbed, a conjurer of that level would have failed almost all the to hit rolls other way. In the moments when the deva is not webbed the conjurer do other things, like to cast protection against fire, as she is expecting the firestorm, as soon that the deva is webbed again she pelts him again with auto hit MMM. The fact that the deva dies before casting the firestorm is not relevant, as the conjurer was protected and would have won anyway. She was relying on the lowered ST of the deva against stacked webs, but not depending on them blindly, if the deva would have saved one more time, without the protection from fire it would have been game over.
This is what I intend when I talk of being strong tactical players, in those cases using a soloer, but in party runs also using each party member in the best way, when he can survive and eventually also be useful. And positioning correctly the party members in the battlefield, avoiding that many of them get the same nasty or debuffing spell at once, or withdrawing them from the battlefield when there is a chance that can not survive is a part of it.
If you like to play like that, fine by me. Other people try to play the game in a more plausible manner. That means your party won't always be perfectly prepared through meta-knowledge.
The consequence is a tougher game, but also a way more interesting one, because you have to overcome more more challenges, and improvise. But it comes with the possibility of failure, in return the satisfaction of making it out of such a confrontation alive feels really rewarding.
Doesn't mean "weak" tactical playing. Going through a list of known risks beforehand and waterproofing your party against them isn't rocket science, or a display of tactical genius. Everybody with 3 brain cells can do that.
Oh, and in case of the Lich and his Wish Time Stop, this came as a real surprise, didn't have that happen before, and it was awesome, despite getting chunked.
Of course, next time I could set up my party in a meticulous manner, and have my PC hide out of the Lich's line of sight, like a real pro gam0r. But I won't do it, because it doesn't give me any sort of enjoyment.
If you play the game based on the information your party could have in a plausible manner, and not on extensive metagame knowledge up to the extent to browsing NI for NPC scripts, then SCS Liches are extremely dangerous opposition for an underleveled group, and *can* defeat you if things aren't going your way.
I agree with you that meticulous preparation of each battle and using only safe tactics is not the only way to enjoy the game, and certainly is not the way that give me the most fun.
But when I first quoted you I quoted an answer of you to @Otherguy, that say that he plays no reload SCS, so I assume that is that what we are referring to.
In a no reload context that lich and his wish double TS can be a disaster, potentially causing to start again from Candlekeep if is a full saga no reload.
In the context that I am playing in RL, reload allowed, but trying to not depend on it, it would be as surprising and interesting as it has been for you.
And I never allowed myself to browse NI for NPC scripts, I prefer to learn their tactics gaming, but I think that in a no reload hard modded game it can have a lot of sense.
My talking of being strong tactical players was referred to that particular context, no reload, SCS and dealing with strong enemies early.
I never assumed that you are not a strong player. If I was misunderstood I apologize, that was not my intention.
Mordenkainen's sword are not useful against someone that uses imprisonment at will, but doing him a lot of DMG, that also disrupt him, before he has a chance to cast it the first time, is really effective.
Instead of Mordys, that are a really good summon against strong mlee enemies and very easy to deal with against casters, use a mage protected with spell immunity abjuration as cannon fodder to draw his imprisonment spells, while your I hasted fighters pelt him with long reach high enchantment weapons (ryn, ram, sotm, pally sword, halberds and spears. With mods that give a more intelligent casting to demiliches there is still some chance to have someone imprisoned.
My FMT could have used spell immunity abjuration, he had it memorized, but that time he did not, it was not needed. I suppose that a I Hasted pally can do the same, but never try it.
A protected mage using sotm, and then energy blades or mmm is still the best way to kill a demilich using physical damage, even if is ranged, if you lack of a 3Mxp FMT, Both Aerie and Jan have little problem doing it having better thac0 than a single class or early dual as Imoen.
Edit some typos corrected
And my usual tactic is protected mage and dragon's breath, that is not a valid answer to your question.
Don't give him the chance to react, kill him before he can even think of reacting, no demilich survive 30-40 APR, after his stoneskin is dispelled or PFMW has expired, he need lot less to go down.