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Please nerf the Mislead spell

This spell is really easy to exploit. Simply cast it in another area or at the other end of the current map and it cannot reasonably be dispelled by enemies, which can lead to some very cheesy situations.
This is because the component that has to be dispelled is not the invisibility itself, but the passive clone of the caster. And all the divination de-buffs have a rather limited range.

I propose the spell is automatically dispelled when leaving the area or when the caster moves too far away from hir clone.

Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    So what it can act as a decoy? I'm not missing what is so overpowered about it.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    @elminster
    From what I remember, the invisibility the caster gains from this spell can *only* be removed by killing/dispelling the decoy. So if you simply move the decoy somewhere safe, and as long as you're not facing enemies that can see through invisibility, you're pretty much invulnerable to everything except AoE spells, and I'm not sure enemy AI actually casts those without having someone visible to center it on. Also, in the case of a mage/thief, you can just backstab over and over, as the invisibility stays active.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    TJ_Hooker said:

    @elminster
    From what I remember, the invisibility the caster gains from this spell can *only* be removed by killing/dispelling the decoy. So if you simply move the decoy somewhere safe, and as long as you're not facing enemies that can see through invisibility, you're pretty much invulnerable to everything except AoE spells, and I'm not sure enemy AI actually casts those without having someone visible to center it on. Also, in the case of a mage/thief, you can just backstab over and over, as the invisibility stays active.

    Sounds like something that could be fixed. To be honest that sounds like an exploit that unless you spend your time in forums like us, or you spend a lot of time working with mages, you would be completely unaware of. But maybe I'm just trying to justify my ignorance :)
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    @elminster
    Haha you're right, I've actually never done it myself, and probably would never have thought of it. I just remember reading it somewhere. It's almost one of those things where you can just say "if you think it's cheap just don't do it," but it may be deserving of a fix.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Enemy mages of high levels use the mislead spell pretty liberally, so nerfing it wouldn't necessarily make the game any harder.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited November 2012
    I think the difference with enemies using it would be that they don't abuse it. As far as I know when an enemy mage casts mislead the decoy stays in the general area, so the player is able to destroy it one way or another. When a player does casts it, it is possible to stick the decoy in room with the door closed far away from the fight, so that there's no way the AI is going to manage to get rid of it.
  • RomulanPaladinRomulanPaladin Member Posts: 188
    Totally. Two solutions: make the invisibility dispelable or make the image immobile.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    Or maybe make it so that the decoy has to stay within the line of sight of the mage that cast it (no clue if this is doable within the game engine).
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2012
    I'm assuming though that enemy mages are not going to be leaving their decoy (misled thing) somewhere far away from them. So isn't true sight still usable against them?
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    elminster said:

    I'm assuming though that enemy mages are not going to be leaving their decoy (misled thing) somewhere far away from them. So isn't true sight still usable against them?

    Yup. Mislead was never (at least from my memory) overpowered in the hands of enemy mages. Really only a problem when used by a particularly munchkin-y human player.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Nooooooooo! Don't destroy the only reason to be a multi-class thief! You only get it at the end / start of ToB by then everything is pretty solid...
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Anduin said:

    Nooooooooo! Don't destroy the only reason to be a multi-class thief! You only get it at the end / start of ToB by then everything is pretty solid...

    There are plenty of reasons to be a multiclass thief.
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    When under the affect of Improved Invisibility, after you attack once, you can be attacked with -4 to atk roll.

    If NPC's do not attack you after you attack them, then it could be an issue with Improved Invisibility or Mislead, but either way it should be fixed.

    I don't care for cheese at all.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited November 2012

    When under the affect of Improved Invisibility, after you attack once, you can be attacked with -4 to atk roll.

    If NPC's do not attack you after you attack them, then it could be an issue with Improved Invisibility or Mislead, but either way it should be fixed.

    I don't care for cheese at all.

    The invisibility is *only* removed when the decoy is destroyed or the duration ends. It actually does this by immediately re-applying invisibilty after every invilibility-breaking action the mage performs. The spell functions exactly as described, it just happens that that function has great potential for cheese. Therefore it's not really a bug, which is why this would be a "nerf" rather than a "fix".
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    @elminster No. As a thief. I always use some one to distract while I go in and nick the HD telly. The best way to do this is by misleading. I create a clone of myself and they knock the front door of the gnoll stronghold... Whilst the real moi is round the back grabbing the Dynhier 3D ready set at the back.

    This is a thief spell. It makes thief / mages a cool class. Only this class can do it (or high level use any item single class thieves and a scroll) It juices up the backstab that gets weaker at those stages. It is not cheese, it is clever use of the spell.

    Other spells not work well for thieves. The silence spell should really give thieves 250 in the move silently skill for instance... But it doesn't... But mislead works well... Please don't change it!
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2012
    Well the fact that you always have access to mage spells consistently is one reason to be a multi-class thief. Adding the ability to use any item is another advantage. I really don't care whether they change this or not, as I've never used it and still won't. But there are more reasons to be a multi-class thief then this one spell.
  • RomulanPaladinRomulanPaladin Member Posts: 188
    elminster said:

    Well the fact that you always have access to mage spells consistently is one reason to be a multi-class thief. Adding the ability to use any item is another advantage. I really don't care whether they change this or not, as I've never used it and still won't. But there are more reasons to be a multi-class thief then this one spell.

    Totally! Shall we list a few low level ones that we might see in BG1?

    Magic Missile: Disrupt enemy spellcasting quickly or chew through mirror images.
    Invisibility (et al.): Re-hide after first backstab.
    Ray of Enfeeblement: Underused spell. Help thieves go toe-to-toe with bigger baddies.
    Mirror Image: Great for front line.
    Sleep, Color Spray, Hold Person, etc.: No need to hide for backstab? Been a while, forget the 2nd Ed rules for this stuff...
    Others!
  • klatuklatu Member Posts: 108
    edited November 2012
    @Anduin - Mislead will never be lactose-free. I'm not asking for its removal. I like Mislead.
    If you believe this nerf would make Mislead useless, you clearly haven't thought about it hard enough (no offense). The beauty and challenge of the BG spell system is how spells interact with each other, how some spells compliment and counteract other spells.

    If you don't want the decoy seen, cast Invisibility on it. If you don't want it harmed, Otiluke's your man. Want it gone entirely? Maze/Imprisonment.

    But simply casting the spell in another area? It costs the player nothing, has no duration and no challenge to it.

    And you could still rob people blind, just as long as you cast the spell in their houses... (Maybe program your decoy to juggle or river-dance? They won't even miss their telly!)
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    @elminster Yes understood totally. But I believe I have mislead you.

    I know lots of other reasons to be a mage / thief, the main being...
    "fighter / mage in your face! errr... Make that back!" reason.

    I have a whole list about why I think thief / mages are the best but I think we should start another thread. This would mislead us away from the very topic I wish to mislead about...

    @Klatu A mislead works best if you make people think your not even in the same building when robbing them! I understand the cheese aspect but the mislead is like a mini simulcra, it needs to be dispelled first to affect you. Brainy people move it out the way, hence your outcry... But then, is that not a realistic thing for mages to do! Role-play here! People are using the mislead to create a frightened version of themselves hiding away! Your not going to mislead people by dancing your mislead up to them waiting for the first dispel to remove the darn mislead thing are you? THAT WOULD BE MISLEADING!

    On another note. When mislead is available to a pure mage he needs all the power he can get. It is however not that commonly used as there are lots of other spells that are better to mislead them away from the mislead spell.

    A thief / mage gets mislead late. The bad guys are tougher. Game is not broken. It would be misleading to say otherwise

    Lastly, the talk about the beauty of the BG spell system I thought was very misleading... I to love how this spell interacts with other spells and abilities, such as the ability to backstab! ITS PURE STABBY PLEASURE!

    Pure bloodletting in its reddest and wettest form. What is there not to love?

    I hope I have mislead you away from this argument... I have totally mislead myself and thought this was a thread about magic lead bullets for slings that somehow always miss halfway through this thread, before I mislead myself back to the misleading question in hand. Very misleading.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    This whole thread makes me feel more confused than mislead.
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    TJ_Hooker said:

    When under the affect of Improved Invisibility, after you attack once, you can be attacked with -4 to atk roll.

    If NPC's do not attack you after you attack them, then it could be an issue with Improved Invisibility or Mislead, but either way it should be fixed.

    I don't care for cheese at all.

    The invisibility is *only* removed when the decoy is destroyed or the duration ends. It actually does this by immediately re-applying invisibilty after every invilibility-breaking action the mage performs. The spell functions exactly as described, it just happens that that function has great potential for cheese. Therefore it's not really a bug, which is why this would be a "nerf" rather than a "fix".
    That may be how the game works, but the spell description says "under the effect of Improved Invisibility", which to me says that after you attack once, you should be able to be attacked at -4, just like Improved Invisibility says.

    The only people who wouldn't want this fixed are those who exploit this cheese.

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    You know I never even thought of abusing mislead this way. Its always a spell that is permanently in my contigency for <50% health, along with Stoneskin and another defense spell.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    If the pnp says that... But why bother? Just use improved invis?
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    edited November 2012
    I think the solution should be different: when the caster is hit by an effect that would remove improved invis, it should simply work.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Ok. As self nominated protector of the mislead spell. I will accept a dispel on caster... But not the original solutions proposed at the beginning of the thread.

    LOL! When did this become serious!
  • RomulanPaladinRomulanPaladin Member Posts: 188
    FYI, the way mislead invisibility works in game is how improved invisibility worked in the original 2nd Ed rules. While improved invisibility is in effect, you shouldn't be able to be detected or targeted. Attacking only leaves a tell-tale "ripple" effect in that spot you stood but disappears immediately, leaving you perfectly invisible once again.

    Imagine my surprise during my first run when people started attacking my improved invisible character after his first attack. I expected things to work as they did in PnP!

    Not saying anything about video game balance, mind you. This is just how the original rules were written.
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    @RomulanPaladin

    I'm reading the spell description for Improved Invisibility in the game, so if the spell is not implemented correctly from PnP, then OK, but again I'm going based off the actual game description. If the in game description is wrong, then that needs to be changed.

    The in game description says that after being attacked, you are looking directly at the person under Improved Invisibility, you can faintly see them and attack them at -4.

    In the game, I think that after the initial attack, the NPC should be able to attack you at -4, per description. You will only appear 'slightly visible' to that NPC, all other NPC's will not see you, until you attack them.

    I think that is a very balanced approach, based off the game description of the spell.
    Post edited by bigdogchris on
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