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The LoB + SCS Solo Challenge vs Bhaal´s Cataclysm

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  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited January 2017
    billbisco said:

    Why can't you kill Sendai first? Is someone resurrecting her? Then you could kill of the rest of the 5 yes?

    The problem is: Once Amelyssan joins the party after the first death there is not much time for any kiting or GWW-spamming cause Su´kka has to run most of the time avoiding the constant attacks of Amelyssan while rebuffing stun protection while avoiding vorpal hits while hoping shes not getting surrounded while trying to outheal incoming damage.

    IF everyone of the Big Fivr is nearly dead Su´kka gets the chance to kill them fast while each death will stun Amelyssan shortly. It also seems as long as the Big Five are alive Amelyssan herself is nearly untouchable. So many things that can - no - that WILL go wrong in the long run. Its such a pain... :D

    Any ideas or tips? ;)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2017
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  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    Yeah, thats exactly my battle plan @chimaera - at least in theory! Executing all of this flawlessly - well - thats the problem! Easiest kills are Gromnir + Illasera. After that it gets tricky: Sendai + Abazigal will nearly constantly refresh their protections while Yaga-Shura not only has decent HP but insane DR. On her best try Su´kka had killed Gromnier, Illasera & Abazigal but after that got overwhelmed by the growing Demon + Fallen Solar army. Often times i even did not hear the "Presio" chanting as there is too much action going on. Su´kka also has died several times to vorpal hits out of nowhere or missed rebuffing her stun protection fast enough. The big difference of this fight and the one against Big B is: The enemies have so much more abilities to throw at you thats its hard to get everything right in a fight that will go over a long distance. Maybe i am lacking concentration, maybe i have bad luck - or maybe Su´kka just isnt strong enough. With perfect play there might be a chance but..... well...we will see! :D
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    I tested a little bit just for fun and have to say: Time Trap and/or Time Stop are a real gamechanger in this last fight. When triggered one after another and with the help of Simulacrum the Big Five go down without resistance. This leaves only Melissan open but at the end that should be manageable like @Enchanter255 showed in his F/M/T challenge.

    If there is no way around this means: Thief and/or Mage have a very, very big advantage here. As i dont like Mages this would lead to the following choice: Swashbuckler or Fighter/Thief for a new challenge!

    Your opinion on that one? ;)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2017
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  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    Hhhmmm... in my fights Amelyssan is constantly summoning Demons (Nabassus, Balors, Succubi, Alu-Fiends, Cambions & Babaus) from time to time and right at the beginning Fallen Solars and/or Fallen Planetars. The Nabassus (or was it the Balors?) are also able to summons new demons as well as the Babau. WIth other words: If Su´kka does not end Amelyssan quickly enough she gets overwhelmed - thats similar to Big B but here the enemies are even deadlier.

    The Fallen Solar summon fix is working otherwise the first wave would be a real nightmare.

    Cleric/Thief is very cool - yeah - but some parts of SoD (Camp Attack + Big B ) would be neverending pain.

    If Fafnir gets past Big B the rest should be "easy". :D
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017

    Short Comparison of Swashbuckler and Fighter/Thief with the following preconditions:

    Race: Dwarf
    Level: Max
    No Buffs or Tomes
    Mods: LoB + SCS

    Fighter/Thief
    Weapon Skills: 12
    Thieving Skills: 810
    Backstabbing
    Extra 1,5 APR
    Hardiness (!)
    Max HP unbuffed: 155
    Savng Throws: 1-1-4-4-1
    Number of HLA´s: 23

    Swashbuckler
    Weapon Skills: 12
    Thieving Skills: 1180
    +8 damage on each attack
    -9 AC
    No Helms until HLA´s
    Max HP unbuffed: 140
    Saving Throws: 3-1-7-11-1
    Number of HLA´s: 17

    Weapon Skills: Both can use 12 points for weapons even though the Fighter/Thief will have a lead thanks to faster progression in BG1 + SoD + and early BG2. Unlike the Swashbuckler he can also use much more weapon types until the „Use All Items“-HLA triggers.

    Thieving Skills
    : Much more points for the Swashbuckler while also being able to push all skills much faster then a Fighter/Thief. This will make things a little bit easier at the beginning – at the end of BG2 or ToB the gap doesnt matter.

    Backstabbing: This one is more for personal preference but i love to backstab the hell out of my enemies. With a Mislead-Scroll or in combination with Simulacrum the Fighter/Thief can have some big fun!

    +8 Damage & -9 AC: Very cool stuff for a max level Swashbuckler that compensates more than enough for his lower APR´s. With Whirlwind-Attack he will be a deathmachine! -9 AC are cool but as AC is capped at -24 the difference to the Fighter/Thief will not be that high in ToB. Not to forget: AC alone is not enough to survive against heavy hitting bosses. The Fighter/Thief on the other hand can use Hardiness to push his DR by 40%. AC vs Hardiness? I will go with Hardiness – at least when its going against named enemies!

    Max HP & Saving Throws: I was quite amazed when realizing that both end up not far away from each other – at least when unbuffed and without Tomes. At CON 21 the Fighter/Thief will reach 164 HP, at CON 24 he will move up to 173 HP. With Potion of Power the gap will open even more so at the end the Fighter/Thief will be able to take some more punches before going down. The Saving Throws are also working in favor of the Fighter/Thief and will easen things up until anti-magic- and protection-items are available.

    Number of HLA´s: This one favours heavily the Fighter/Thief once he reaches max XP. Six HLA`s more in the pocket are not to be taken easy. More GWW´s, more traps, more anything! Is there a way for the Swashbuckler to compensate this?

    So - who´s "better" now? And what about style or personal preferences? Hard to get into numbers no? ;)
    Post edited by Harpagornis on
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,457
    edited February 2017
    The saving throws don't look quite right - should F/T not be -2 -1 4 4 0 and Swash 3 -1 7 11 0?

    Also on proficiencies F/T has the advantage of being able to put more points into weapons and thus get a THAC0 and damage bonus.

    The F/Ts big advantage is the additional APR - arguably that should be 2 rather than 1.5 (extra 1 from fighter levels and 1 from GM) with the potential to double that with IH.

    I quite like swashies and in the regular game the lower AC is a huge advantage, even against the toughest opponents in ToB. However, in LoB that advantage will be significantly less and overall I suspect the F/T would be better suited to the challenge.
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    The Saving Throws should be right (CON 19) - just created the chars from scratch using EEKeeper.

    The APR difference is 7/2 to 2. Thats 1.5 difference no? No Grandmastery allowed! ;)

    Yeah - Swashies have more style! The AC IS nice but at the end i would prefer Hardiness!
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    Fighter Thief is more versatile and safer (early helms, better hp, and saving throws). High static Bonuses to damage and AC are nice but not good enough to compensate for your challenge. Fighter / Thief all the way!
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,457
    edited February 2017

    The Saving Throws should be right (CON 19) - just created the chars from scratch using EEKeeper.

    The APR difference is 7/2 to 2. Thats 1.5 difference no? No Grandmastery allowed! ;)

    I agree on the APR - I was thinking of a dualled character :/ (incidentally you might consider adding kensai thief to your list of options, as that provides a different set of advantages).

    The saving throws are interesting. I agree that's what you get in the game, but that's not what you should get from the published saving throws! Initially I thought that must be the EE, but going back to original BG2 the same issue is there, i.e. that the constitution bonus is only provided to the extent that the resulting score goes down to 0. So if your basic saving throw is 6 and you have con of 18 the adjusted score goes down to 1. However, if you then level up so that your basic saving throw reduces to 4 the adjusted score will only go down to 0, not -1 (it can still go negative after that as a result of equipment worn). I suppose it's possible that was a deliberate design decision, but if so it would seem very odd and I suspect an ancient bug ...
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    Yeah - the Saving Throws look a bit strange @Grond0 - i also was sure that there were some negative numbers - long ago. Anyway: Kensai/Thief sounds cool but the Dwarfen Fighter/Thief fits better into history. My very, very first char in good old BG1 was - yes - a Dwarven Fighter/Thief. I had absolutely no clue about the game mechanics but he rocked hard. That was also the time when i fell in love with backstabbing. Watching the big numbers incoming and how enemies exploded into oblivion. *HRHRHR* Maybe the first character should be the last. For this challenge... :D
    Post edited by Harpagornis on
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    Su´kka, the Half Orc Barbarian goes - Braxx, the Dwarven Fighter/Thief comes!

    After playing the whole night good old fellow has reached Baldurs Gate. With an already fine item collection, reputation at 20 and level 6/7 in the pocket things are looking pretty fine so far. The combination of trapping + backstabbing is so much fun - aaaaah - golden memories from the past are still glittering. A 118 damage backstab obliterared Mulahey for instance. Sounds cool no? At the Bandit Camp Braxx sneaked in and out without any violence, burned Drasus on the run and played some fine hit & run with Daeveorn. In between he soaked XP killing the Basilisks and farmed a lot of Ankhegs - thanks to trapping there is a lot xp incoming in very little time. So far nearly everything worked smoothly - no deaths so far. It cant get better no? ;)
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    Are you doing SoD or going straight to BG2 after killing Sarevok?
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    Braxx is doing quite well in Baldurs Gate so far and reviseted Candlekeep to get Tomes and Fire Prot Ring. He skipped the Ogre Magi and most Dopplegangers using stealth/invisibility and is now getting prepared for the Palaca Ambush. Damn - i hate this fight even more with SCS! Note sure if Braxx should do Werewolf Island and complete Durlags Tower. I cant see them anymore. :D

    Once Braxx has - hopefully - finished BG1 the next one should be SoD. Otherwise the run would feel incomplete! ;)
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited February 2017
    Main reason for durlag's tower is extra wisdom tome and you want some of the weapons there. What are braxx's proficiencies?

    Early +2 large shield can be nice as well as +3 sling, +2 staff spear, +3 two handed sword if you use those weapons. Kiel's helmet is there too which could provide valuable fear immunity for behlifet later on.

    Can you upload some Braxx screenshots prior to heading to SoD? I would love to see his stats and items!
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    Yeah, Durlags Tower is quite cool with regard to items - i just dont like the endless dungeon crawling in there. But as Durlags Goblet (plus Kiels Helmet) is nearly essential for a smooth SoD-Run i will go for another ride soon. ;)

    Damn i never uploaded photos here... :D

    EDIT: This damn photo upload isnt working like i want it to be... copy&paste only leads to black screen... :D
    Post edited by Harpagornis on
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,457
    You don't need to copy and paste - just drag the file into the comments box and wait for it to upload.
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    Holy cow - this crappy Palace Ambush was a nightmare. Even though Braxx buffed himself to the limit and trapped the area it still took several tries. So many things that go wrong here...

    First try: Forgot about the Assassin and - sure - he instakilled Braxx with one backstab. Where is my Barb?

    Second try: Everything worked fine until the slippery Mage threw his Fireballs and the others hacked Belt down.

    Third try: Everyone was targeting Liia Janneth and Belt who went down even though Braxx dealt massive damage.

    Fourth try: Now things worked fine. The traps did good damage while Braxx was waiting in stealth for the Assassin to choose another target. After this he fired Arrows of Dispelling on each Doppleganger and used stealth/invisibilty to backstab the hell out of anyone who was targeting Belt. In between he distracted the Mage and soaked up one Fireball, several Magic Missiles and Chromatic Orbs. But thanks to his endless triggers Braxx could not take him down and switched back to the rest of the Dopplegangers. Now the race started of who will go down faster. Belt + One Guard + Braxx vs Three Dopplegangers. The first one was backstabbed to oblivion but the Priest managed to kill the last guard and started hacking on Belt who was already "nearly dead". Another use of the Sandman Ring and a following backstab finished this one - only the Mage left. Luck was on our side as he ran out of spells and tried to put vengeance on Braxx so he went down from injured to badly injured and nearly dead. For whatever reason he now switched the target and attacked Belt who was also close to death. Belt took one hit, two hits - until a final backstab brought this beast down. I hate this fight. :D

    @Grond0 - you have done this fight over and over again. Is there a more viable strategy to get through?
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    Do you have horror or slow poison for your Bhaal powers? Horror would be more useful.

    Also there is a bug with wand of summoning and the advanced ai script. Even though your fighter thief should not be able to use the wand of summoning from inventory, sometimes it will be run via script. That might give you a slight edge. (You have to set use items on).

    Also, you might try nymph's cloak on the flaming fist officers and set them up surrounding Belt for protection.

    Where does the assassin spawn? Traps might work in that exact spot.

    Can you charm belt to safety in between your back stabs?

    The fight and scripts there are buggy. Charming a noble or killing them before they turn into a doppelganger has always prevented me from being able to finish the battle properly.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,457


    @Grond0 - you have done this fight over and over again. Is there a more viable strategy to get through?

    Well done for making it. I'm afraid I don't have a panacea for this fight - if they're determined to kill Belt & Liia they will do so irrespective of what you do I think. In some installations turning Liia invisible is helpful and in older games using Otiluke's works - but neither are much good in current LoB. Similarly the exploit of moving between floors has been fixed.

    Your tactics sounded pretty good to me. I'm not sure if you continued using dispelling arrows on the mage, but that's handy to keep him on the defensive.

    One possibility you could try is to go invisible before the dopplegangers appear - this should stop their script activating so they don't attack. However, they will still defend themselves individually against the dukes and it's unlikely the dukes will win all those battles. It gives you a chance to concentrate on fewer enemies though - potions of firebreath can then be pretty helpful to take them down as quickly as possible, though you need to be careful with those B).

    I agree that the use of horror is a significant benefit for a fighter type in the regular game - but with LoB the dopplegangers will have an automatic save against that. Similarly you won't be able to charm them (though as billbisco noted charm may be useful on others).
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    The scripts of the Dopplegangers are strange: Sometimes they attack randomly sometimes they focus like crazy the Dukes. The only one who is constantly annoying is the Mage - he is acting really smart and is hard to catch. Putting him on the defensive so he wastes some spells on Braxx only looks like a decent way. Dispelling Arrows are key. Things like Horror did not work for me and - yeah - charming one of the nobles before the fight will get you stuck. Charming Belt and moving him out of danger sounds interesting - maybe i should test this on the next try! ;)
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    Okay - Braxx is rocking Durlags Tower hard. The Four Wardens - who gave Su´kka a really good fight - got obliterated thanks to backstabbing madness. They even did not see what was coming on them before Love, Fear and Pride went down. Only the sneaky Avarice was at least a small challenge but thanks to some buffing and regeneration in between it was not even close. Unlike the Palace Ambush this was too easy! On the lower level Braxx smashed somer more Dopplegangers and grabbed Durlags Goblet + Kiels Helmet. Time to get out of this place - i cant see it anymore! :D

    So only Sarevok left before the gates open for SoD! Or maybe short trip to the Werewolves in between? Nah! ;)
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    How close are you to the 161k cap (or did you remove the cap). That's the only reason to adventure further in my mind or if you want to stock up on limited explosion / fire-breathing / invisibility potions.

    Don't forget to buy the undead protection scrolls and the 2 protection from magical scrolls!
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    Braxx already reached the level cap (no removal) but maybe he will venture a bit more especially hunting some more invisibilty potions for Big B. Undead and Magic Prot Scroll are already in the pockets - together with Arrows of Dispelling and Detonation! Lets see what Braxx can aquire on his search... ;)
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    Time for the final showdown. Braxx approached Sarevok and after some last talking the rage started.

    His evil brother was parked as usual in a corner while Diarmid, Tazok and Semaj also followed. That was a bit surprising but after short thinking Braxx smiled. Because with nearly all of them clustering at the same place the good old dwarf started his „burn them all“ game using a combination of Detonation Arrows and Necklace of Missile spamming. After Diarmid, Tazok and Semaj went down Braxx searched for Angelo and dispelled his protections - several backstabs later he went down easily. With all allies down it was now time to face Sarevok himself who suffered one backstab after another - until defeat. At the end the whole battle proved to be a lot easier than with Su´kka. Time for SoD – after some resting! ;)
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited February 2017
    How did you end up beating the Duchal Palace ambush?
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    billbisco said:

    How did you end up beating the Duchal Palace ambush?

    Read some posts above "Fourth try". After all this one was the toughest battle for Braxx. Well - its history now - Big B is waiting! :D
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited February 2017
    A really tough start into SoD. These damn Followers of Sarevok are getting better on each run - holy cow. To take them down Braxx needed seven traps, six Arrows of Detonation, two Fireballs from the Necklace and - well - normally they should have been dead for a long time. But no - four of them were still hunting Braxx. Only after several backstabs and two big healing potions - backstabs and absorb life from the Blackguards really hurt - he finally managed to take down the first wave. Even through all this burning the AI kept a cool head using lots of abilities and continued searching when being invisible while warning nearby allies about the incoming Thief. They all kept wandering around - searching for Braxx and making backstabs nearly impossible. Looked really well coordinated and without the Fireball-Cheese they would have overwhelmed Braxx in no time. Korlasz has to wait a little bit - time for some rest! ;)
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    Ok guys and girls, I've been itching at trying my luck on this challenge, but with an unkitted fighter. I think that would be real hard, but, if it's possible, it has to be done by someone. Just like a few years back (about 10 years ago, if I remember correctly) when SCS and Ascension were soloed for the first time with an unkitted fighter. I would go full reload too : it would be about finishing the game first and foremost. Su'kka was so damn close that I just want to cross that achievement off the board.

    But I have a few questions :

    1. What would be the best alignment ?
    2. Which proficiencies should I favor ? @Harpagornis : from your experience, which weapons did you use most ?
    3. I would roll a dwarf for the bonuses to saving throws, but I also would have to roll godly stats to recruit Balthazar. The Ascension Readme hint that you have to have high Charisma and Wisdom, but does anybody know how high ?

    In the mean time, I will prepare an install with only Ascension and SCS.
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