Oh I see, didn't know the damage rolls for half if saved it's still a massive amount if you don't have protection against it. Didn't know about wing buffet save either.
Oh I see, didn't know the damage rolls for half if saved it's still a massive amount if you don't have protection against it. Didn't know about wing buffet save either.
Draconis' acid breath is one of the reasons I named him as a genuine challenge even in vanilla. He uses remove magic regularly so for a warrior it's hard to protect against that and as you noticed it can hurt . He has some other nasty tricks for warrior types as well - like going invisible and healing himself just as you think you've got him on the run ...
Yeah, he is quite smiliar on SCS but starts out with Pfmw so I didn't think he would do anywhere close as well on LoB. It's good that you can get 75% acid protection without scroll so he can't dispel that, but still it was a nice unexpected challenge.
Okay, i have been rethinking about the whole challenge even though we are only very few "BG-Nerds" namely @Grond0, @Blackraven and @Victor_Creed_SFV.
As we have seen so far LoB is going to make the game harder but still lacks the last punch even when restricting ourselves to "Warriors only". Maybe in ToB there will be some trouble awaiting but i think we can mostly agree that the AI suffers hard in most parts - with some exception to SoD.
My suggestions would be:
1. Rename the challenge into "Warrior-Thief" which will give access to the Thief Class and its Kits. 2. Expand the challenge from LoB only to LoB + SCS to push the overall AI behaviour. The big question would be only: Which SCS settings should be mandatory. 3. To soften things a bit up we might allow Fighter/Thief Dual- or Multiclass. Opinions on that one?
And no: I would not consider to add No-Reload to this modified challenge. Twinkling @Grond0 & @Blackraven!
@Harpargonis, I'm not sure if single-class Thieves will fare better than warriors. Shadowdancers have a lot of survivability but will suffer against enemies that see through invisibility. Shadowdancer->Fighter, and Fighter/Thief multi would have a lot of potential though.
As for your second point, I think it's mostly the AI enhancements (better calls for help, pre-buffing etc) that seem to matter. At least that's what I gather from @Victor_Creed_SFV's comments. Creature improvements, items nerfs etc could be optional I'd say.
To be honest, any successful solo SCS/LoB run would be pretty impressive to me, and interesting to read about. It's not like mages or clerics can steamroll through the saga in SCS/LoB. Also, a somewhat wider approach might attract more players, and it could teach us how different classes and kits cope with the many different challenges the game poses.
If you want to exclude the most powerful builds like FMT, FMC, or FM, you might consider imposing a single-class restriction. But my experience with no-reload threads tells me that such a restriction isn't really necessary. People like to experiment with "weaker" classes anyway. Besides such a restriction would also also exclude less obvious multi- or dual-classes like Fighter/Druid, Cleric/Thief, Wizard Slayer->Thief.
Thanks for your input @Blackraven! Opening up the LoB + SCS challenge to all classes is tempting because - as you said - i dont think that Mages will steamroll through the whole Saga. I would love to see how Mages or Sorcerers are going to handle LoB Belhifet. I lack experience with them but at level 11 my provocative prediction would be: They will get obliterated! Maybe some Mage-Pros would be tempted to join in the challenge - and prove me wrong!
Same thoughts about SCS: Basic AI Improvements like better call for help, pre-buffing etc as mandatory while the rest is just optional. Or is this still "too easy" @Victor_Creed_SFV?
Will have to sleep about it - more feedback is always welcome!
Thanks for your input @Blackraven! Opening up the LoB + SCS challenge to all classes is tempting because - as you said - i dont think that Mages will steamroll through the whole Saga. I would love to see how Mages or Sorcerers are going to handle LoB Belhifet. I lack experience with them but at level 11 my provocative prediction would be: They will get obliterated! Maybe some Mage-Pros would be tempted to join in the challenge - and prove me wrong!
Depends what level of magic resistance the demon has. If not very much then I would have thought it would be easy enough using large numbers of summons and direct damage magic.
Hey, I didn't mean to say your challenge is too easy. You beat most of SoD which I didn't, I just wanted to compare SoD and BG2 that's all. I think a wider approach to classes definitely could attract more players, I personally really like mage classes and am probably not the only one. (even tho DD seems to be "stronger" in many but not all scenarios, which I was totally unaware of)
If we open up "The Free for All" LoB + SCS Solo Challenge to all classes - which one would you play?
@Victor_Creed_SFV seems to be in love with Dwarfen Defender while @Grond0 will stomp the game with his/her Mage/Sorcerer. And @Blackraven will show us the hidden power of Mage Slayer/Thief. Sounds cool.
while @Grond0 will stomp the game with his/her Mage/Sorcerer.
I seriously doubt stomp would be the correct adjective . I've actually tried quite a bit with a sorcerer in basic BGEE LoB - I've had 43 attempts and only managed to beat Sarevok once. That doesn't mean it's difficult in principle - the only encounter where there should be any danger is the fight at the palace and even there I reckon I'd now have at least an 80% chance of success. However, LoB takes somewhat longer and therefore provides more opportunity for mistakes (which I'm prone to at the best of times ...)
I've played a fair amount with SCS in BG1 as well and so wouldn't expect that to be difficult in principle with LoB. However, I haven't ever played through either SoD or SCS ToB and lack of knowledge of how those encounters operate would certainly make them difficult ...
And @Blackraven will show us the hidden power of Mage Slayer/Thief. Sounds cool.
That would definitely not be my first pick! I've never played a Fighter/Cleric. This challenge seems a good opportunity to roll one though. Would you guys be interested in that?
Ok guys, so I had to restart my DD, cause I didn't like the way the Draconis fight went. Only thing I changed was my alignment, went with evil so I can use Silver Dragon Scale. I recorded it and it might look like I was close to dying couple of times, but rng just wasn't with me when I recorded. My main strategy was to use Roranachs Horn + Defensive Stance to get 100& Crush resistance including DDs own resistances + Defender of Easthaven. Silver Dragon Scale heals you for 2 HP each time you get hit, so since Draconis summons a lot of stalkers they heal you a lot. Sadly in my recording they died quite early to his breath, so I had to use a lot of healing pots, compared to almost none in my test run. Here's the vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB23_zvDVas&feature=youtu.be
Oh btw, do you mind if I finish this non SCS run before I do the challenge for real? When SCS is mandatory I will do the full challenge BG1, SOD and BG2, not quite sure on the class yet, probably either mage/priest or fighter/mage/priest. Idk about making creature improvements mandatory, since you want to combine LoB and SCS, no? IUf that's the case creature enhancements won't be necessary. Fighter thief is really nice I personally like Shadowdancer dualed into fighter, mage or priest.
Sure - you can finish your ToB-Run @Victor_Creed_SFV. Its all up to you! Feel free to start a Mage/Priest/Whatever challenge afterwards - should be interesting too!
Yes, i am talking about LoB + SCS. As LoB already pushes every creature it may be wiser to use only the standard AI improvement mentioned in the updated rules. If anyone wants to use SCS at its max. power - feel free to do so!
Shadowdancer into Fighter - sounds interesting. Will have to think about this and other options. Anyway: Big fun incoming soon!
So I have theorycrafted a bit more and for my run of Harpagornis challenge I will go with Swashbuckler dualed into fighter at level 25! This is a pretty late dual but will allow me to get UAI which should prove very useful for this run. Also +5 to Thaco and damage is very nice and ofc +6 AC. BG1 and SOD will be rough but SoA should be alright until the point of the dual. Being level 1 fighter at 3kk xp will be kinda hard but UAI is one of the abilities you retain when you haven't regained thief levels so it should be doable.
Woah @Victor_Creed_SFV! If you manage to get this rolling and are willing to suffer a lot - especially in some parts of SoD - this build will be a lot of fun in the later challenge. Good luck!
I rolled a "normal" Dwarfen Fighter/Thief which will start his adventure soon.
@Victor_Creed_SFV, interesting dual. Great late game potential I agree. @Harpagornis, looking forward to reading about your Fighter/Thief's exploits.
It's interesting that Thieves are suddenly getting a lot of love here. I rolled up a Gnome Illusionist/Thief myself, Trixy.
A squishy character but also versatile.
I'll limit the number of permitted reloads because if I can reload all the time, I won't do everything required to win a given battle, such as using up expendable items, looking for ways to recover from unexpected setbacks etc. I haven't decided yet how many reloads though. Was thinking nine. Cats have nine lives, maybe Bhaalspawn too?
@Harpagornis, you asked about creature improvements. I do have them installed but in some cases I've gone with the softer versions, closer to vanilla: Spirit Trolls have the same powers as in the original game, Don't give beholder rays any chance of burning through spell protections; beholder antimagic blocks all spells, Illithids have only original-game resistances and cannot see invisible enemies. I did give many creatures HP boosts. I wonder how many HPs Firkraag has with SCS and LoB....
Well in my opinion thieves have some of the most overpowered abilities UAI and also Assassination. Because I would miss out on Assassination I'm also not quite sure if I should actually go Swashbuckler, since he misses out on that. Maybe Thief/Cleric or even F/M/T. I played F/M/T before and really like the mc and I absolutely don't think it's underpowered in low levels, since in BG1 you get max xp quickly anyway and in SoD you should already become pretty powerful.
Thieves all around. But who wonders? With all the potential cheese they are just perfect for the upcoming challenge and as @Victor_Creed_SFV stated they get the some of most op high-level-abilities available. So any combination with a Thief should be quite powerful. Cleric/Thief is also one of my favs but i fear that they will have a very, very hard time at late SoD. I somewhat managed to get the sting out of this damn Belhifet fight thanks to summon-splittpulling-abuse but any class that lacks heavy AoE and/or Arrows of Detonation will suffer horribly during the Crusader Attacks. Anyway: I am eager to see how our chars will progress and where we are running into problems.
The concept of nine lives only sounds interesting @Blackraven but i would soften it up a bit - at least for the later parts of SoD if you havent tested them heavily. The last fights alone took away dozens of lives in my very first run...
This is so funny! As Thorgrim, the Dwarfen Fighter/Thief has chosen Lawful Evil he is stealing and robbing whatever he can get. Even better: Thanks to some infamous Ankheg Farming he not only pushed his xp but also got enough gold to buy the Dagger of Venom. Backstabbing + Poison - how much more fun can you be asking for? The Ankhegs stand no chance when combining trappstacking with some bow kiting - its just a matter of time. Thorgrim also managed to sneak up to Meilum in Firewine Bridge to get the very nice Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise. After finding some Armor (he is running around naked like a pschyo atm) and PfP it will be time for some basilisk hunting. Oh dear this Char is so OP when using some cheese. But hey - i am evil. Cheese is my second nature!!
Damn! The first death was near because i wasnt paying attention to the battlelog. I mean: Neira the Bounty Hunter in Nashkel is normally no problem at all. I was backstabbing her quite good and even the poison triggered so she was already badly wounded before casting "Hold Person". I thought i was reading "spell failure" in the log but the spell went off, hit Thorgrim and - sure - paralyzed him where he was standing. Looking again at the battlelog i could not find the spell failure so it was just my own imagination seemingly putting me into safety. Anyway: It was quite funny to see how Neira tried to reach Thorgrim in close combat to finish him off but was unable to run past Rasaad who was blocking the door. Several rounds later Thorgrim was back again and fired a last arrow into her face critting for 20 damage. Boom- game over!!!
Oh yeah that bounty hunter is nasty now that poison got nerfed hard, usually poison is her death sentence since she can't cast, didn't really understand the nerf as it only affects BG1 and early SoA and is completely useless in SoD. Wait... You poisoned her with dagger? Oh ok that didn't get nerfed it never was as good as assassin/blackguard poison. (I still always use it on thieves, too very nice item.
In Abazigal's Lair I once again encountered why non SCS can be very lacking sometimes. You fight some BONE GOLEMS to get the Breath potion, ofc in SCS you fight yet another dragon.
Mulahey is dead - what a slaughter! Luck was on Thorgrims side as he trappstacked the area around Mulahey, critted him for 61 damage and while poison was ticking he got in another crit for 30 damage before Mulahey was even able to say "What?". Thorgrim took the loot and used invisibilty before his support troops swarmed in asking themselfes what has caused havoc here.
EDIT: Nimbul died in seconds thanks to backstabs and poison. Wasnt even able to dish out a single spell. This venom dagger is so OP!
I reloaded on Abazigal a couple of times now, I have the right strategy, but since I need to use healing potions even before he transforms into dragon, I messed up the timing with my rebuffs a couple of times and vs Abazigal no defensive stance is instant death.
Thorgrim cleared the Bandit Camp thanks to Trap-Backstab-Poison-Cheese and is now left with 20k+ gold which he can spent. Even the Mage in the big tent was no challenge and suffered endless spell failures while being poisoned. With every step it gets clearer that the game so far is much easier than on the last runs using Cavalier + Blackguard. Who is going to stop him from his bloody path?
@Harpagornis, great progress. Am impressed! Didn't expect the dagger of venom to be so useful... And those snares... I think it's time for my Gnome to hone her trap-setting skills. @chimaera, as far as I'm concerned you're most welcome to join the challenge. Note that my setup also includes a number of extra mods besides SCS (EE Trilogy, Ascension, BG1 NPCs, some aTweaks, Unfinished Business, and some tweaks like p&p spell progression and true grandmastery which affect both the player and enemies). Hope that's ok.
Comments
Didn't know about wing buffet save either.
It's good that you can get 75% acid protection without scroll so he can't dispel that, but still it was a nice unexpected challenge.
As we have seen so far LoB is going to make the game harder but still lacks the last punch even when restricting ourselves to "Warriors only". Maybe in ToB there will be some trouble awaiting but i think we can mostly agree that the AI suffers hard in most parts - with some exception to SoD.
My suggestions would be:
1. Rename the challenge into "Warrior-Thief" which will give access to the Thief Class and its Kits.
2. Expand the challenge from LoB only to LoB + SCS to push the overall AI behaviour. The big question would be only: Which SCS settings should be mandatory.
3. To soften things a bit up we might allow Fighter/Thief Dual- or Multiclass. Opinions on that one?
And no: I would not consider to add No-Reload to this modified challenge. Twinkling @Grond0 & @Blackraven!
As for your second point, I think it's mostly the AI enhancements (better calls for help, pre-buffing etc) that seem to matter. At least that's what I gather from @Victor_Creed_SFV's comments. Creature improvements, items nerfs etc could be optional I'd say.
To be honest, any successful solo SCS/LoB run would be pretty impressive to me, and interesting to read about. It's not like mages or clerics can steamroll through the saga in SCS/LoB. Also, a somewhat wider approach might attract more players, and it could teach us how different classes and kits cope with the many different challenges the game poses.
If you want to exclude the most powerful builds like FMT, FMC, or FM, you might consider imposing a single-class restriction. But my experience with no-reload threads tells me that such a restriction isn't really necessary. People like to experiment with "weaker" classes anyway. Besides such a restriction would also also exclude less obvious multi- or dual-classes like Fighter/Druid, Cleric/Thief, Wizard Slayer->Thief.
Same thoughts about SCS: Basic AI Improvements like better call for help, pre-buffing etc as mandatory while the rest is just optional. Or is this still "too easy" @Victor_Creed_SFV?
Will have to sleep about it - more feedback is always welcome!
You beat most of SoD which I didn't, I just wanted to compare SoD and BG2 that's all.
I think a wider approach to classes definitely could attract more players, I personally really like mage classes and am probably not the only one. (even tho DD seems to be "stronger" in many but not all scenarios, which I was totally unaware of)
@Victor_Creed_SFV seems to be in love with Dwarfen Defender while @Grond0 will stomp the game with his/her Mage/Sorcerer. And @Blackraven will show us the hidden power of Mage Slayer/Thief. Sounds cool.
I've played a fair amount with SCS in BG1 as well and so wouldn't expect that to be difficult in principle with LoB. However, I haven't ever played through either SoD or SCS ToB and lack of knowledge of how those encounters operate would certainly make them difficult ...
If you put down your no-reload-resctriction @Grond0 the whole challenge should be a walk in the park for you! No?
Fighter/Cleric is great @Blackraven and one of my old loves before moving on to Druids - please try it if you like!
Only thing I changed was my alignment, went with evil so I can use Silver Dragon Scale.
I recorded it and it might look like I was close to dying couple of times, but rng just wasn't with me when I recorded.
My main strategy was to use Roranachs Horn + Defensive Stance to get 100& Crush resistance including DDs own resistances + Defender of Easthaven.
Silver Dragon Scale heals you for 2 HP each time you get hit, so since Draconis summons a lot of stalkers they heal you a lot.
Sadly in my recording they died quite early to his breath, so I had to use a lot of healing pots, compared to almost none in my test run.
Here's the vid:
I updated the Rules but i am still unsure if Creature Improvements should be mandatory or just optional. Opinions on that one?
If starting again i would - perhaps- roll the evercheesy Fighter/Thief. On the other hand: Its just too mainstream no?
When SCS is mandatory I will do the full challenge BG1, SOD and BG2, not quite sure on the class yet, probably either mage/priest or fighter/mage/priest.
Idk about making creature improvements mandatory, since you want to combine LoB and SCS, no?
IUf that's the case creature enhancements won't be necessary.
Fighter thief is really nice I personally like Shadowdancer dualed into fighter, mage or priest.
Yes, i am talking about LoB + SCS. As LoB already pushes every creature it may be wiser to use only the standard AI improvement mentioned in the updated rules. If anyone wants to use SCS at its max. power - feel free to do so!
Shadowdancer into Fighter - sounds interesting. Will have to think about this and other options. Anyway: Big fun incoming soon!
This is a pretty late dual but will allow me to get UAI which should prove very useful for this run.
Also +5 to Thaco and damage is very nice and ofc +6 AC.
BG1 and SOD will be rough but SoA should be alright until the point of the dual.
Being level 1 fighter at 3kk xp will be kinda hard but UAI is one of the abilities you retain when you haven't regained thief levels so it should be doable.
I rolled a "normal" Dwarfen Fighter/Thief which will start his adventure soon.
@Harpagornis, looking forward to reading about your Fighter/Thief's exploits.
It's interesting that Thieves are suddenly getting a lot of love here. I rolled up a Gnome Illusionist/Thief myself, Trixy.
I'll limit the number of permitted reloads because if I can reload all the time, I won't do everything required to win a given battle, such as using up expendable items, looking for ways to recover from unexpected setbacks etc. I haven't decided yet how many reloads though. Was thinking nine. Cats have nine lives, maybe Bhaalspawn too?
@Harpagornis, you asked about creature improvements. I do have them installed but in some cases I've gone with the softer versions, closer to vanilla: Spirit Trolls have the same powers as in the original game, Don't give beholder rays any chance of burning through spell protections; beholder antimagic blocks all spells, Illithids have only original-game resistances and cannot see invisible enemies. I did give many creatures HP boosts. I wonder how many HPs Firkraag has with SCS and LoB....
I'll report as soon as I've made some progress.
Because I would miss out on Assassination I'm also not quite sure if I should actually go Swashbuckler, since he misses out on that.
Maybe Thief/Cleric or even F/M/T.
I played F/M/T before and really like the mc and I absolutely don't think it's underpowered in low levels, since in BG1 you get max xp quickly anyway and in SoD you should already become pretty powerful.
The concept of nine lives only sounds interesting @Blackraven but i would soften it up a bit - at least for the later parts of SoD if you havent tested them heavily. The last fights alone took away dozens of lives in my very first run...
Wait...
You poisoned her with dagger?
Oh ok that didn't get nerfed it never was as good as assassin/blackguard poison.
(I still always use it on thieves, too very nice item.
You fight some BONE GOLEMS to get the Breath potion, ofc in SCS you fight yet another dragon.
EDIT: Nimbul died in seconds thanks to backstabs and poison. Wasnt even able to dish out a single spell. This venom dagger is so OP!
I reloaded on Abazigal a couple of times now, I have the right strategy, but since I need to use healing potions even before he transforms into dragon, I messed up the timing with my rebuffs a couple of times and vs Abazigal no defensive stance is instant death.
@chimaera, as far as I'm concerned you're most welcome to join the challenge.
Note that my setup also includes a number of extra mods besides SCS (EE Trilogy, Ascension, BG1 NPCs, some aTweaks, Unfinished Business, and some tweaks like p&p spell progression and true grandmastery which affect both the player and enemies). Hope that's ok.