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Wizard Eye

Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Why does True Sight dispel wizard eye? :/

It's supposed to be a conjured entity that is invisible so it should be suceptible to detect invisibility but why does it dispel it entirely? The eye itself is not an illusion.

Am I missing something? If it is an illusion shouldn't the spell be in the Illusion school?

Comments

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    That's a good question, @Mush_Mush.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Well, it is classified as an illusionary creature, which is why True Seeing is able to kill it. The real question, I think, is why it is classified as an illusionary and not a summon... That would be much more difficult to answer...

    The only other things you can summon that are killed by True Seeing are Misleads, Project Images, and the spectral blades of the Spectral Brand scimitar. That annoying Spellhaunt on the first floor of Watcher's Keep is also killed by True Seeing.
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    It's classed as Divination/Alteration which in itself implies it's a physical creation the same way stoneskin is a physical creation using Alteration/Transmutation magic.

    It also says in the spell description: "creates an invisible sensory organ" & "...it has substance and a form that can be detected" which sounds pretty non illusionary to me, minus the invisible part.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Surely "... it has substance ..." must mean that it is specifically not an illusion.

    Therefore: bug report!

    Observed: Wizard Eye is classified as illusionary and can therefore be destroyed by True Seeing.

    Expected: Wizard Eye is actually a summon and should therefore not be destroyed by True Seeing.
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  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    If an illusion had substance it wouldnt be an illusion, for example when you have mirror images the illusions don't have hitpoints they are dispelled the instant a weapon passes through them because it no longer works to fool the opponent, they're not material clones. Illusions are tricks of light and mental deceptions if they have substance then they are not illusionary.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Exactly as @Mush_Mush says, @subtledoctor. Illusion might fool you into falsely believing that something has substance (and indeed that's often the objective), but it's nevertheless not really there. If it actually has substance, then that means something real is there, not just an illusion.
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Project Image. Simulacrum. Hell, let's even throw in those illusionary werewolves that deal damage if you attack i.e. acknowledge them. Illusions in the game are capable of causing very real effects.
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    Maybe we're looking at it backwards. Maybe the visual information the eye transmits to the caster is considered an illusion and therefore that link to the caster is severed by True Sight.
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  • NoobaccaNoobacca Member Posts: 139
    Mush_Mush said:

    If an illusion had substance it wouldnt be an illusion, for example when you have mirror images the illusions don't have hitpoints they are dispelled the instant a weapon passes through them because it no longer works to fool the opponent, they're not material clones. Illusions are tricks of light and mental deceptions if they have substance then they are not illusionary.

    Interesting insight, but how do you apply this logic to the "illusions" in the circus tent in Waukeen's Promenade? They do no damage when they attack you, but if you attack them, they do not disapear and begin to deal damage to you. As they do not "dispel the instant a weapon passes through them", are they still considered illusions?
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    Noobacca said:

    Mush_Mush said:

    If an illusion had substance it wouldnt be an illusion, for example when you have mirror images the illusions don't have hitpoints they are dispelled the instant a weapon passes through them because it no longer works to fool the opponent, they're not material clones. Illusions are tricks of light and mental deceptions if they have substance then they are not illusionary.

    Interesting insight, but how do you apply this logic to the "illusions" in the circus tent in Waukeen's Promenade? They do no damage when they attack you, but if you attack them, they do not disapear and begin to deal damage to you. As they do not "dispel the instant a weapon passes through them", are they still considered illusions?
    Well apparently the illusions in the tent are normal illusions until you acknowledge them at which point they manifest. Aerie is Aerie with the illusion of being an ogre until you disbelieve her story at which point she fully transforms into an ogre and tries to kill you. The magnitude of power employed is, as mentioned in game, great and from an unknown source.

    Perhaps this could all be a matter of perspective but its the perspective that makes the most sense to me.
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    Alternatively...

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  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    Seeing is believing. Belief can create gods. Therefore True Sight can dispel God.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited November 2016
    Even Mislead "illusions" are able to speak and gesture as if they're really you in D&D hard canon (which is why it actually makes sense that bards can use them to sing bard songs) so it's false that illusionary constructs are completely devoid of substance.

    The real question is what kind of substance the construct in question is made of - is it magical in nature, or is it actually a creature conjured from somewhere? This is important in BG2 because it is based of AD&D rules, where there is an established difference between something like magical and normal acid. Magical acid can be dispersed with a spell like Dispel Magic, for example, while a spell that actually conjures real acid from somewhere will all too effectively burn you regardless of how much Dispel Magic castings you throw at it.

    Obviously the Wizard's Eye is a magical construct. It's not a summoned creature, and it's not just something you "alter" into existence. We're talking about a flying, self-propelling, has-a-powerful-shared-connection-with-the-caster, invisible construct.
    It's then up to the DM's discretion whether the Wizard's Eye itself is made up a type of magical substance that True Sight is able to dispel. Note that like Dispel Magic, True Sight works on multiple schools of magic. Clerics originally used True Sight to identify doppelgangers, for example, and the type of magic they use is Alteration rather than Illusion.

    Edit: Dispel is abjuration
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,459
    I agree that the idea that illusions can't have substance is not correct. In both BG and PnP sources there is a spectrum to how 'real' illusionary spells are. Simulacrum for instance is an illusion, but very real indeed ...
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Simulacrum is an odd spell... it is NOT destroyed by True Seeing. I guess it is more of a clone than an illusion? Not sure...
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    The argument of it having a substance or ot does not stand. Mislead is an illusion, it has a substance (it can be hit and has a particular number of HP) yet it is still dispelled by True Sight. The same goes for the werewolf illusions in Kalah's tent. Yet Simulacrum, which satisfies the same conditions, is not dispellable by True Sight. That means the game is not consistent with itself if you use these arguments.
    So either it's really not consistent and in that case there will be no proper answer to whether it is normal or not that True Sight dispels Wizard Eye, or it's consistent with itself but these are not right arguments.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited November 2016
    There's a reason why "DM's discretion" appears everywhere in handbooks, you could say. In the case of Simulacrum, one can simply argue that as a higher level spell (or the fact that it creates a completely independent and potentially unique "copy" of the caster, that's some hardcore magecraft there) it's too powerful for True Sight to completely dispel (especially if you consider that there are novels and even actual D&D modules based on simulacrum clones taking on a life of their own).
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918
    Tresset said:

    Simulacrum is an odd spell... it is NOT destroyed by True Seeing. I guess it is more of a clone than an illusion? Not sure...

    Illusions are not real. Simulacrum is real, it can affect the world. Fighters can kill through physical damage and mages can cast spells. It is more a clone than an illusion, yes.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    I agree with @Nuin , even if TS is the most powerful of the spells that dispel illusions and invisibility, is possible that, like the lower ones, can dispell only to a certain level and being simulacrum, not dispelled, lev8 and PI, dispelled, lev7, there is a logic.
    Still there is a way to dispel every illusion, regardless of level or magic protections, like a SI on a PI. The thief ability doesn't dispel simulacrum and wizard eye, but dispel every other illusion afaik, so is possible that simulacrum and WE are not illusions.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    RelSundan said:

    Tresset said:

    Simulacrum is an odd spell... it is NOT destroyed by True Seeing. I guess it is more of a clone than an illusion? Not sure...

    Illusions are not real. Simulacrum is real, it can affect the world. Fighters can kill through physical damage and mages can cast spells. It is more a clone than an illusion, yes.
    And project image can cast spells and mislead can sing bard song, both affecting the world, yet True Sight dispels both
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    You could say that it is the caster affecting the world through his illusion. The simulacrum replicates the spells the caster already memorized and allow him to cast these duplicate spell from the simulacrums position. A bard song is sound. Whether you hear a song live or have the illusion of hearing it, it makes no difference to the audience (that's the magic of recorded music). When the illusion is dispelled, it prevents the caster from braodcasting his effects through that illusion.
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