Canon party, dualing Imoen
Kneller
Member Posts: 438
I'm running a canon party through the series (my Cav, Imoen, Jah, Khalid, Minsc, and Dyn). As it goes, once I pick someone up, I keep them.
I'm trying to figure out how to manage without a thief after I dual Imoen. At that point of the game, I expect all I'll have left is the city and ToSC material, all of which needs a thief for traps.
The only solution I've come up with so far is to put off picking up Minsc and Dyn until after Imoen gets her thief levels back. Then, I can run with 4 and pick up Safana to hold me over. I'll likely be getting Minsc and Dyn way late in the game, though.
Another solution would be to cheese the flesh golem cave to get the levels back, but this is a no cheese run, so also no sending a party member into a building, dropping them so I have room for a thief, then picking them back up later.
Anyway, if anyone has any better cheese-free ideas, I'm all ears. Thanks.
I'm trying to figure out how to manage without a thief after I dual Imoen. At that point of the game, I expect all I'll have left is the city and ToSC material, all of which needs a thief for traps.
The only solution I've come up with so far is to put off picking up Minsc and Dyn until after Imoen gets her thief levels back. Then, I can run with 4 and pick up Safana to hold me over. I'll likely be getting Minsc and Dyn way late in the game, though.
Another solution would be to cheese the flesh golem cave to get the levels back, but this is a no cheese run, so also no sending a party member into a building, dropping them so I have room for a thief, then picking them back up later.
Anyway, if anyone has any better cheese-free ideas, I'm all ears. Thanks.
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You can easily open locks with the Knock spell.
Another solution is to slacken your rule that once you recruit a permanent team member, you'll keep them in the party all of the time. Even when I play a canon party (including my current run, incidentally), I'll swap one or two members out from time to time to do the personal quests of various other joinable NPCs (but then swap the permanent team back in afterwards, of course). My role-playing justification for this is that my permanent team members enjoy an occasional break from work.
Going to the island early is possible, but you might find yourself struggling on the island because your warriors would be somewhat under-levelled; I find the island much easier when my team are maxed-out.
Another strategy which I've found to work is as follows:-
Ignore most of the side-areas, just focus (mostly) on the main plot throughout Chapters 1-4. If you have the timing right, then you should reach the Cloakwood Mine whilst Imoen is level 6 (and therefore still a Thief), so she can deal with all the traps and locks in there. You should then see her hit level 7 just about the same time as you finish the Mine.
If she hits level 7 before you've cleared the Mine (which is quite likely), then just let her carry on as a level 7 Thief for a little longer - the extra XP she earns doing this will be discarded when you dual her, but don't worry, she'll still be able to complete the dual (and indeed hit the xp cap) long before the game is over. If she doesn't quite hit level 7 before completely clearing the Mine, then she'll surely do so very soon after.
So then you dual Imoen after completing the Mine, but you've still got most of the side-areas untouched. Most of these areas have no outdoor traps (although AR3000 is an exception - that's the one at the eastern edge of the map where you find Denak and the other Red Wizards), so you can now go around clearing these areas and doing their side-quests without needing a Thief.
By the time you've cleared the side-areas and have little left to do except the City and the TotSC content, Imoen should have almost completed her dual. Just pick a couple of things to do in the City which don't rely on Thief skills, and that should be enough to earn her Thief skills back, so then you're set for the rest of the City and TotSC tasks.
Now, I figure I have to do some side stuff though just so I can tool up for this path. What's the absolute minimum I have to hit to properly gear up this team?
In one recent run (although not with a canon party), I entered the Cloakwood Mine with Imoen having only just barely reached level 6, which meant she was still quite a long way from level 7 when I completed the Mine. That was okay, because I'd barely touched any of the side-areas and so still had loads to do, but it shows that I could have done several more things before Cloakwood and still have had Imoen's Thief skills available throughout the Mine where those skills are very important. Your rule of never swapping out the permanent members of your party will undoubtedly affect the calculation somewhat. (I've never played with that rule except once, and that was a non-canon party, so it's not entirely comparable.) With your rule and a canon permanent party, I'd not only rush to Cloakwood, but also postpone recruiting Minsc & Dynaheir until after completing Cloakwood, in order to leave room in the party to swap other joinable NPCs in and out (and do some of their personal quests) before finalising the line-up - thus I'd probably have Neera as my Mage for quite a while (and do her quest along the way, probably between the Bandit Camp and Cloakwood).
In your situation, here's roughly what I'd probably do (wall-of-text warning! :-)):-
1) Collect Imoen, collect Gorion's loot, recruit Xzar & Montaron, leave the rest of that area unexplored for now and proceed to FAI.
2) Recruit Jaheira & Khalid, then fully explore the FAI (not forgetting to collect the Pantaloons, speak to Dorn, and get the quests from Unshey and Landrin), and its external area (doing Joia's quest in the process).
3) Rush through Beregost leaving most of it unexplored (just making sure to visit Mr. Colquetle and Mirianne to get their quests).
4) Briefly visit Nashkel and talk to Mayor Ghastkill, then immediately backtrack to FAI to drop off Xzar & montaron before they start fighting with Jaheira & Khalid.
5) Return to Beregost, turn in Mr. Colquetle's and Mirianne's quests, do Firebead Elvenhair's quest to earn a container, find and recruit Kagain and Garrick, then return to FAI (via the crossroads to complete Kagain's quest and Unshey's quest), then drop off both of them and turn in Unshey's quest.
6) Return to Beregost and recruit Neera, then explore the rest of Beregost, including completing Landrin's quest and meeting Gurke and Bjornin to get their quests, then return to FAI to turn in Landrin's quest.
7) Return to Nashkel, talk to Oublek and then walk straight through (just making sure to collect the Ankheg plate and visit Joseph's wife to get her quest) and proceed to the Nashkel Carnival.
8) Complete the Nashkel Carnival area, except not yet unfreezing Branwen.
9) Travel to Nashkel Mine, recruiting Dorn at his ambush along the way.
10) Complete the Nashkel Mine external area (thus collecting Varscona for Khalid), return to Nashkel to turn in the Prism quest to Oublek and buy a Stone to Flesh scroll from the Temple of Helm, return to Nashkel Carnival and recruit Branwen in place of Neera, then return to FAI to drop off Branwen and rejoin Neera.
11) Return to Nashkel Mine, go in and fully clear the Mine.
12) At the end of the Mine, swap Neera for Xan, and exit via the secret passage to the Tombs area.
13) Confront Lamalha and her cronies (a tough fight at this level, but good xp and loot), but leave the rest of the Tombs area unexplored for now.
14) Return to FAI to drop off Xan and rejoin Neera, then return to Nashkel, fight Nimbul and report to Berrun Ghastkill, then talk to Taris to trigger the first part of Dorn's quest.
15) Go to Gibberling area to confront Kryll and complete Dorn's first task, then clear the rest of the area and collect Samuel from Lena.
16) Return to Nashkel to report to Taris, then Beregost to meet Elminster and Officer Vai and to confront Tranzig, then the crossroads to confront Deke, and finally the FAI to deliver Samuel to Gellana.
17) Briefly visit Peldvale to recruit Viconia in place of Dorn, then leave the rest of the area unexplored and return to FAI and drop off Viconia and rejoin Dorn.
18) Briefly visit High Hedge to collect Kivan (swapping out Dorn) and buy the final container from Thalantyr, but leave the rest of the area unexplored for now.
19) Return to Peldvale to confront Raiken, but leave the remainder of the area unexplored and proceed to Larswood.
20) Briefly visit Larswood to meet Teven (either killing him or allowing him to recruit you), then go to the Bandit Camp (automatically if recruited, manually otherwise).
21) Fully explore the Bandit Camp, killing everyone except Ender Sai, but leaving the southern half of the area (i.e. outside the Camp itself) unexplored for now.
22) Return to FAI to meet Elminster again and sell heaps of loot.
23) By now, Neera should have announced her quest to find Adoy, so proceed to Adoy's Enclave, fully exploring it and completing her quest (and Magreb's quest while you're there).
24) Now go to Cloakwood, fully explore the first area to obtain Gurke's Cloak and side with either Aldeth or Seniyad as you choose (I reckon Aldeth for a canon run), but not yet speaking to Coran.
25) Proceed to the second Cloakwood area and fully complete it (thus acquiring Rashad's Talon +2 scimitar for Jaheira, and Spider's Bane +2 two-handed sword for when you eventually recruit Minsc).
26) Proceed to the third Cloakwood area and fully complete it (thus acquiring Mighty Oak +2 club for Jaheira), but don't yet speak to Eldoth or Faldorn.
27) Return to FAI to drop off Kivan and then first Cloakwood area to recruit Coran in his stead.
28) Proceed to fourth Cloakwood area, enter the cave to kill the wyverns (but leave the rest of the area unexplored for now), then rush straight to the Temple near Beregost to deliver a wyvern's head to Kelddath Ormlyr (thus completing Coran's quest), but leave the rest of the Temple area unexplored for now.
29) Drop off Coran at the FAI, then return to the third Cloakwood area to recruit Faldorn, then proceed to the Cloakwood Mine.
30) Leave the outside sections of the area unexplored for now, but enter the Mine stockade to confront Drasus (yay! Boots of Speed at last!), and clear the rest of the area inside the stockade.
31) Now enter the Mine and fully clear it, periodically hauling piles of loot to a container back at ground level (and swapping Faldorn for Yeslick along the way, if you so desire); I reckon Imoen should be early-level-6 as you go in, and mid-level-6 as you finish it.
32) Return to FAI to drop off Faldorn (or Yeslick as applicable) and rejoin Dorn, then shuffle to and fro to the Mine stockade a few times to fetch all that saleable loot you left in a container.
33) Walk through the Ankheg-infested Farms area (sticking to the road and leaving the rest unexplored) to reach Wyrm's Crossing.
34) At Wyrm's Crossing, since Dorn is with you again, confront Simmeon to complete Dorn's quest (and get his good loot!), then swap Dorn for Quayle, but leave the rest of the area unexplored for now.
35) Drop off Quayle at FAI, then return to Nashkel to recruit Minsc.
36) Cut across the corners of the areas on the way to the Gnoll Stronghold, leaving the bulk of those area unexplored for now.
37) Fully explore the northern half of the Gnoll Stronghold area, but leave the southern (xvart) section unexplored for now, and locate Dynaheir.
38) Swap Neera for Dynaheir, and your canonical party is now fully formed at last!
39) By this time, Imoen should be nearly ready to dual to Mage, so now go and finish exploring all the areas you've left partly-explored, and she'll reach level 7 while you do that.
40) Now start working on the many outside areas you haven't yet explored at all (except the Red Wizard area), and in the process Imoen should get most of the way towards getting her Thief skills back.
41) Go to the outside area of Durlag's Tower and clear it (some good xp there), but don't yet try to enter the Tower.
42) Go to Ulgoth's Beard and complete Shandalar's quest from there to the Ice Island, but don't yet accept Ike's tour nor enter Mendas's home.
43) Return to Wyrm's Crossing and enter the City, where I reckon a couple of quests which don't necessitate Thief skills should be enough to complete Imoen's dual and thereby enable you to do everything else in the City.
As long as you don't go to Nashkel, JandK will wait at the FAI.
So you should be ready to dual much earlier.
And in BG, archery and kiting is the secret with only 2.
Hit the baselisk map, pick up whathisname and you will level up on just that one map.
I usualy solo for some time before picking up anybody, consequently when recently I ran a full party from the start it was flabberghasting how low level everybody was for seemingly ages.
Ok, just finished Nashkel and about to confront Tranzig. That will put me in place to go to do the Bandit Camp. Except, I'm only level 3 (Dynaheir is just about to hit level 2). There's no way I'm prepared for this. I figure I have to find a reason to do some side stuff, but I'd like to focus on quests that either give me useful gear or raise my rep so I can buy useful things for less. Also, I'm not sure how much I can level for the Bandit Camp without having to worry about overshooting it in Cloakwood.
My party is:
Me, Cav, frontline tank still using the staff with which I started the game and Ankheg plate. I have the girdle of piercing and boots of avoidance.
Jah, splint mail and a common staff with sling backup
Minsc, archer, ordinary composite bow. Leather armor (I'm sure I'll come across some splint soon enough), bastard sword backup weapon
Khalid, archer, Splint mail and ordinary long bow, common long sword as backup
Imoen, leather and a short bow. She's still using Gorion's dagger as a backup, but mostly for sentimental reasons.
Dynaheir, primarily sling when not spellcasting, no real gear, a dagger for backup in case something gets through and tries to melee her (just so she doesn't get the AC penalty for the ranged weapon)
Some ideas so far:
1) An easy pick is Silke for the +1 staff.
2) Arghain for the +1 2h sword
3) Zal for the bracers of archery
But I kinda don't want to do a random hodgepodge of side quests, instead following a single more significant side quest. It just seems more coherent story-wise. I dunno, any better ideas?
How come you don't have any Plate Mail yet? Wasn't it the case in pre-EE that when you first venture southwards from Beregost, a rogue Flaming Fist attacks you on the road (near the south end of the map) and drops a Plate Mail when you kill him? (In EE, that's increased to 3 rogue FFs - a tougher fight, but more reward.) If you go to Peldvale (on your way to the Bandit Camp) and rescue Viconia, then the FF who is attacking her also drops a Plate Mail in EE, and (if I recall correctly) that was also true in pre-EE.
Generally, I'm assuming that it better fits the style of what you're doing to do some more pieces of maps which you've already visited, rather than visiting untouched maps.
Obviously you haven't yet cleared the ground area around the Nashkel Mine, since you haven't yet acquired Varscona from Greywolf. Go for it, there's some decent xp on that map for a low-level party, and a useful Wand of Frost.
On exiting the Nashkel Mine, you must have either backtracked through the levels, or (if you used the shortcut exit to the Tombs area) snuck around the combat with Lamalha, since Lamalha's party have some better kit than some of what you're using. However, you might be a little low-level to go back and tackle her just yet, although you probably should before Cloakwood.
Since you have both front-liners relying on staves ... yes, you really need a better staff (heh! I seem to recall my former employer once saying that!) Perhaps while you're looking around Beregost, you might casually strike up conversation with Garrick just out of politeness to a passing stranger, and thereby find yourself inveigled into signing up for his quest and acquiring Silke's staff at the end - it doesn't seem much of a role-playing stretch to do so.
Also while you're exploring Beregost, you can acquire Zhurlong's quest and thereby the Boots of Stealth, which'll be handy for scouting ahead. And finding those Boots is a fine excuse for searching the whole map to the immediate south of Beregost, and so killing a fair pile of hobgoblins and usually a couple of ghouls. My suggestion would be to set to work clearing the areas which you've already touched, and surely that'll give you all a level or so. Then press on towards the Bandit Camp.
Plate is only 1 AC over splint. Minsc's armor is terrible because I haven't looted anything better yet, but he's -never- in melee so I'm not worried about it. I'm probably going to keep him in leathers anyway so he can stealth (I don't like cheesing with stealth and armor switching). I wish he could use the Shadow Armor. That would be perfect for him. Thunderhammer actually sells full plate, if it's that important to have prior to the Bandit Camp. However, it costs about 6500g now and I only have about 5000. If it's really that big of a deal to max out Jah and my Cavs armor. I can easily rack up another 1500g and go broke on the armor.
I do have the wand of frost. I picked it up on my way to the mine (it was right there). However, I didn't take on Greywolf. It's a great sword, but neither of my tanks can use it, so I didn't really see a reason to rush for it.
Looking ahead to werewolf isle, I'm really worried about the GWW. I probably won't have L4 druid spells to summon a dryad (Hold Monster), and I don't think Hold Animal works on Werewolves. My cav won't be able to use a single weapon against it (no LS, BS, or dagger). In fact, nobody can except for Minsc (Bastard swords) will be able to use the GWW weapons. I'm kinda tempted to build Jah for daggers so she can effectively use Werebane. However, this is the only time I see her using a dagger in the entire series. With Minsc on BS, he can DW the Bastard sword vs. shapeshifters and Balduran's sword. Maybe I can find some way to get the Cav a Wand of the Heavens? Perhaps a second one for Jah? I feel like I actually need to have Jah at L4 spells so she can Ironskins to hold off the GWW while the rest of the party cleans up the lackeys. If there was a way I could protect everyone effectively from lightning, then I could have Imoen and Dyn go crazy with wands of lightning. That should make short work of the fight, right? 6 potions of Absorption? Yeah, I'm actually more concerned with this fight than the final battle.
Also, it'd be a reasonable role-play, when working towards the Bandit Camp, for your Cav to wonder if there's a convenient short-cut through that unexplored area immediately north of the FAI, and thereby meet an ankheg. At your level he'd probably realise that he's not ready for that yet and back out rapidly, but he might "just happen" to bag himself an ankheg shell for Thunderhammer in the process. In my own current run, I had no-one at all with Bastard Sword proficiency, so I left the werewolf island until after I'd already finished Durlag's Tower. That way, I had the Burning Earth longsword (which also works against Karoug), so I put heavy armour on Khalid and sent him forward to melee Karoug (although like yourself, I was mostly using Khalid as an archer), and had the others back him up with wands and spells. It worked.
However, with your Minsc having Bastard Sword proficiency, Kondar should be fine. Haste him and give him full fire protection (Helm of Defence, Batalista's Passport, Potion of Fire Resistance), then (once Karoug's minions are cleared out) have the others stand back and pound Karoug with fire spells, fire wands, fire potions. It's not a bad idea (although not what I did) to give Jaheira proficiency in Daggers. Apart from using Werebane against werewolves, it also enables her to use the Dagger of Venom competently (and hey, that's a seriously good weapon!), but also in BG2 a Dagger proficiency gives her the option of using the Firetooth returning dagger as her ranged weapon instead of a Sling (and that's also a very good weapon).
In fact, for pre-EE BG1 in which Jaheira gets no enchanted Club and can't find an enchanted Scimitar until quite late, I reckon that specialising her in Daggers and buying her the Dagger of Venom may actually be the strongest build when you're using her in the front row.
Do you think fire is a better route than six potions of absorption and a couple wands of lightning? I figure the bouncing lightning would do more damage to the lot of them than playing with fire and not being able to protect everyone completely.
However, if I can't get a couple wands of the heavens, then firebreath potions would be a solid plan B.
As for Jah, I switched her staves for clubs and will build her in scimitars. It's not great for BG1, but I'm ultimately building her for bg2 (slings, clubs, scimitars, dw, in that order). She'll eventually get the +2 scimitar on top of DT. Besides, the dagger of venom is a little out of character for Jah, in my opinion. For bg1, though, this is going to make her a pretty rubbish tank.
As for DT, I don't think I'll be able to do it until after WW Isle. I'll need Imoen to get her thief levels back and I'll probably need to do WW Isle first for the XP.
Actually, to be more precise, I cleared the above-ground levels of Durlag's Tower in Chapter 5, but I didn't go down into the labyrinth until Chapter 7, where I cleared everything except not yet tackling the demon knight. Then I backed out and went to the werewolf island with my newly-acquired Burning Earth sword. After completing the island, I again returned to Durlag's Tower to confront the demon knight and then Aec'Letec in Ulgoth's Beard ... and by that time, there was then nothing else left to do except go through the Thieves Maze to confront Sarevok and finish the game.
Kneller, Firewine ruins, Ulcaster and parts of Durlag would help you get her levels back pretty fast.
The traps in Ulcaster isn't that dangerous, are they? You can just eat them and continue on. I can't remember because I always have a thief with me when I go there.
@Kneller - honestly, you're a pretty hopeless case, ya' know? All that discussion and detailed planning, but then you give in to restartitis and it all goes to waste!
In your new circumstance, you may well be right that there isn't enough outdoor trap-free content to complete the dual before facing all those traps and locks in Cloakwood Mine ... although, hmm, with a party of two, you could surely get most of the way to completing it by clearing most of the rest of the map, and maybe there's even enough there that you could just about get her Thief levels back? I tend to be a full-party player, I've little experience of running only two and therefore have a less sure feel for exactly how far you could get.
Fortunately, it's very easy to regard the Cloakwood Mine as also being Faldorn's personal quest (and I often take her along for a while for exactly this reason) because she explicitly tells you that she wants to rid the forest of the intruding miners (even though she doesn't give you an actual quest for this in your journal) ... and Faldorn can cast the Find Traps spell. Unfortunately the spell version of Find Traps only locates traps without disarming them, so you'll have to tank through some traps and dodge around some other traps ... but at least you won't be caught unawares, so it should be possible to get through.
Similarly, it's obviously Yeslick's personal quest to clear the Mine, even though that's also not entered in the journal as an explicit quest, so you'd have the option of adding Yeslick (or substituting him for Faldorn) when you meet him half-way down the Mine ... and he too can cast Find Traps.
If you clear outside areas of the map with the two-person party before entering the Mine, and then clear the Mine with the addition of Faldorn/Yeslick, then I guess you might manage to complete Imoen's dual before you flood the Mine. If so (although obviously I offer no guarantees about it!), then you could double back after defeating Davaeorn, so that Imoen can open the various locked chests and so on, before you trigger the flooding of the Mine.
If it's any consolation, I only barely started this run and am thinking of going back to the original plan.
(In EE, Coran joins you low-levelled but with an unallocated level-up in hand, so you can immediately choose where to allocate some of his skills, but I know you don't get that helpful option in pre-EE.) Well, I suppose a small party makes some fights harder, but nevertheless a Cavalier (I'm assuming your re-start is with the same protagonist) ought to be pretty solid in melee, so I'm slightly surprised that you've been having quite so much trouble. Are you talking about Neira on the way down the map, or Nimbul on the way back up?
It's Neira. I basically fail all my saves against her so I get held and confused and whatnot. With her spiritual hammer, she kills me in a few rounds. The rest of the party (I actually have Jah and Khalid even, for the mine quest) can't take her down with ranged fast enough. One of the reloads, I technically survived, but I was confused so I started attacking everyone in the inn and wound up a fallen paladin. Ridiculous. I ended up winning, not by making my saves, but by dropping an entangle (which I also consistently failed to save against), which at least kept me from going on a killing spree while confused.
Playing this game in the past, I've had frequent enough situations where I'd lose a tank over the course of a battle, but it would be no big deal with raise dead or harper's call. Keeping in mind that my back line is going to be just Yoshi/Imoen and Aerie (until Sarevok comes along, but that's much later), I feel like it's going to be more like using that back line to protect the tank, rather than the front line to protect my squishies. Though, how, I'm not sure. Aerie can buff, but that's assuming a DM/RM doesn't undo all her work. I can focus on CC and Blasting with the casters to shorten the fight, but my main is still going to be pretty vulnerable. Yoshi, in particular is not going to be super helpful, only being a thief. He can plink arrows, for whatever that's worth. Sure, I can do a bit of trapping, but I feel that's a drop in the bucket.
As for the Neira fight ... yes, it can sometimes be tricky simply because you're so low-level and vulnerable at that stage. However, can't Imoen reliably disrupt Neira's first spell with her Wand of Missiles? Then the initiative would be with you, to get your physical attacks in before she can cast again. Anyway, you succeeded eventually, so no matter.
But I figure, Imoen and Khalid have 2apr with a bow and Jah 1apr with a sling, not to mention my Cav with 3/2apr using his staff. Between 6.5 attacks, at least one should hit every round and disrupt spellcasting. That's all I really needed.
Without dropping party members or grinding, is it even possible to get her levels back before I need a trapmonkey again? I'm almost thinking I'd have been better off holding off on getting Minsc and Dyn until way late in the game (like after Cloakwood and clearing most of the outdoors, but before BG city).
So, back to the drawing board. How do I make a canon Imoen dual work in BG1 with the canon party and not dropping anyone after I pick them up? I feel obligated to pick up Jah and Khalid asap for story reasons, but I don't mind a delay on Minsc and Dyn. Is that good enough?
As it is in your current run, I'm a little surprised that Imoen is still so far away from completing the dual. Even so, if you've only done a handful of outdoor areas, then there's still quite a lot of xp to gain before you need to enter the City. Not enough for 65kxp each, but you should still be able to make a good dent in the target. I'd suggest ploughing ahead and see how close you get, rather than abandoning all hope.
Then entering the City, you might have to meta-game somewhat to select some quests which don't call for Thief skills, and make use of Jaheira's Find Traps spell to dodge (or tank through) a few traps. Do-able, I reckon, but indeed it does seem to show that your "no dropping" rule is really quite a severe restriction.
I think if I didn't pick up Minsc and Dyn, I would be only 30kxp off at this point. That's still a pretty big gap. I could probably grab Safana and hit DT to clear it, though...