Question about Classes in EEKeeper

AdaJ

I can't seem to find an answer to this, so I thought I'd ask here.

I was mucking around with EEKeeper for the lulz, and the sudden though occured to me:
What happens if I create a F/M, but add the Cavalier kit to it using EEKeeper? Does it mean I functionally have a Paladin/Mage?

How about any other combinations, like making a Ftr/Mage and kitting in Archer? Anyone done it before?

Lord_Tansheron

Kits only work with the correct class. Most of the time if you add a kit to the wrong class, it just doesn't do anything.

Also, several of the kit bonuses don't actually get assigned automatically. Unlike some other mechanics, the system doesn't update all your kit stats in regular intervals (like e.g. level-up) so if you add the wrong affect flags or innates, it won't correct itself. An implication of that behavior is that if you just add the kit to something, it won't simply give you all the kit things automatically.

AdaJ

Ugh. Thanks, L_T. Looks like there is no way to get my favourite Treasures of the Savage Frontier character into BG. He was a Paladin/Mage dual.

Lord_Tansheron

Paladin/Mage is close to impossible. You can make a Fighter/Mage and add most of the skills/affect flags required for a Paladin, even change the level/proficiency progression tables - but afaik there is no way to add Divine spells.

There are ways in which you can expand class mechanics through EEKeeper and/or some NI engine tool, but hard-coded limitations will stop things eventually. Classes in particular seem to be quite the hurdle, Monk, Sorcerer, Bard or Paladin duals are not really in the mix.

Note: Barbarian duals alone are trivial. While the game lists it as a class rather than a kit, the engine does, in fact, simply treat Barbarian as a fighter kit. It can be combined into dual/multiclass without any problems just via EEKeeper.

AdaJ

There is only one thing to do in this case: Ftr/Mage dual, and add in the skills stuff as you suggested as he levels. EEKeeper has the option to add all effects of a kit to a level you choose at the press of a button and a similar button for innate abilities. The eventual issues with doing it due to leel shouldn't be a problem for a dual class. Then in SoA, give the guy UAI and be done with it.

Skatan

Make a C/M, change the hit die to match a paladin. Change the THAC0 and APR manually at level ups. Restrict the casting to Paladin levels. Add the UAI effect and use self-restriction to not use anything a paladin would not be able to use. Add the bonus to saves and the innate abilities of a paladin. Voila, you have a paladin/mage.

I think you need NearInfinity to change the label of the class, but I dunno for sure since I have never used that program myself.

Make sure you use 100% selfrestriction on items and spells though.. I've done something similar but then I've faultered and kept the best of all worlds, hehe.. too godly chars always ends up in the drawer though, they're just not as fun as regular chars.

AdaJ

C/M has a problem with bladed weapons, unfortunately.

RelSundan

That is why you apply UAI (Use any Items) which is a Thief HLA that allows them use anything they normally wouldn't be allowed to use, such as the Carsomyr. Apply it and you can wield any weapon. @AdaJ

AdaJ

Does it work on the Cleric restrictions? I thought UAI doesn't work with kit and class specific restrictions like you still can't cast arcane spells and wear armour, and things like that.

Lord_Tansheron

AdaJ said:

Does it work on the Cleric restrictions? I thought UAI doesn't work with kit and class specific restrictions like you still can't cast arcane spells and wear armour, and things like that.

UAI works with anything pretty much, except in some cases with character-specific items (this is a bit inconsistent depending on your version, mods, etc.). It certainly does remove class/kit-based restrictions.

The above-mentioned C/M modification is probably the best workaround solution. It'll still be awkward in places and will require constant maintenance with EEKeeper on every level-up pretty much, but it'll probably do the trick.

AdaJ

Hmm... Interesting. I will have to try it out. I can't find UAI in BGEE, so I probably have to wait until BG2EE to get it fixed in.

Thanks, guys.

EDIT: Nevermind. Found it. Had to play with Effects to get it to work.

gorgonzola

Lord_Tansheron said:

UAI works with anything pretty much, except in some cases with character-specific items

I am not completely sure that UAI overrides the limitations on weapons that divine casters have, but I never tested it. Did you test it?

About character-specific items I recently noticed that in EE Jan's special equipment can not be used with UAI, thing that I have done many times in original. Someone knows if this is a bug, so I will post it in the redmine, or a wanted change by the EE developers?

AdaJ said:

How about any other combinations, like making a Ftr/Mage and kitting in Archer? Anyone done it before?

There is a tricky way to do it. Downolad Tactics mod and install only the generic archer component, that is an archer kit for fighters, quite similar to the ranger one. Than add that kit to the F/M using EEkeeper.
Here you can find more information on that mod
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41242/tactics-mod-bg2ee-compatibility-conversion-and-beta-test#latest

Lord_Tansheron said:

but afaik there is no way to add Divine spells.

Is somehow possible but labor intensive. Using a modding tool new arcane spells that replicate the effect of the divine ones must be created. Than EEkeeper is used to learn them. The new spells will be used from the mage spellbook and the divine one will not be accessible, so each fakedivine spell is memorized at the cost of an arcane one.

Gallowglass

gorgonzola said:

I am not completely sure that UAI overrides the limitations on weapons that divine casters have, but I never tested it. Did you test it?

I'm currently running with a Cleric/Thief, and yes, UAI does enable her to wield bladed weapons etc. (although of course with no proficiency, so there's little point doing this).

gorgonzola said:

About character-specific items I recently noticed that in EE Jan's special equipment can not be used with UAI, thing that I have done many times in original. Someone knows if this is a bug, so I will post it in the redmine, or a wanted change by the EE developers?

This was a deliberate change by the EE devs, who consider it a bug in the original that person-specific items could be unlocked by UAI. It was declared in the change notes at the time (although I can't remember which version introduced this change).

gorgonzola

thanks.

AdaJ

You can mess around with the 2da files to change the profficiency thing, Gallowglass. I did. Works like a charm now.

Gallowglass

AdaJ said:

You can mess around with the 2da files to change the profficiency thing, Gallowglass. I did. Works like a charm now.

Well yes, of course you can do that. You can mess around with all sorts of things, if that's what you want to do. To me, however, it feels like cheating, so I don't do that sort of thing.

AdaJ

Well, not really. There is no reason that you cannot be profficient in a weapon. You just can't use it because of your clerical ethos. When that ethos is removed, off you go. The question is really whether UAI removes the clerical ethos.

Francois

I used UAI and EEKeeper so that Anomen could use swords like a real knight. Why can't priest use real swords, yet Helm clerics have Seeking Sword and any priest can cast Flame blade (which deals slashing damage in addition to fire)?

AdaJ

Because it is 2nd Edition. In 1st and 3.x, they can.

Lord_Tansheron

Francois said:

I used UAI and EEKeeper so that Anomen could use swords like a real knight. Why can't priest use real swords, yet Helm clerics have Seeking Sword and any priest can cast Flame blade (which deals slashing damage in addition to fire)?

I believe the bladed-weapon restrictions were increasingly relaxed as D&D progressed through its editions. The origin of that whole idea was simply that the creators at the beginning of the game wanted to do something cool and unique, but with growing complexity and a developing inherent logic to the lore and story, this became more and more of a problem.

Since BG2 is essentially D&D E2.5, the ban on bladed weapons is still universal. I encourage you to go around it if you like, or if you think it makes sense within the character logic (and it very often does). To that end, UAI is a convenient tool to use in order to circumvent the restriction, but I believe there are ways to permanently mod them away as well (was it one of the Tweaks mods? was it IR? can't remember).

The biggest MECHANICAL implication of abolishing the ban that I see is that Clerics would then get access to +APR weapons. Considering that has long been a factor holding them back that may perhaps not be all that dramatic, but on the other hand many people loved Clerics for their utility even before and perhaps giving them high damage output on top of that utility is too much. In the end, it will (as always) have to be a personal decisions. Don't let ideas of "legitimacy" discourage you too much from experimentation. Be honest to yourself, and reasonable about what you allow or disallow for your characters. You are the GM, essentially, and the arbitrator of your own fun.

AdaJ

IIRC, Tan, 1st Ed allowed clerics to use bladed or pointy weapons if they are dual or multiclassed into a class that allowed it. 2nd Ed decided that that made dual/multiclass too powerful, and so they put in the rule that all restrictions carry over regardless.

I believe UAI in BG actually breaks the rules of 2nd Ed wide open.

Lord_Tansheron

AdaJ said:

I believe UAI in BG actually breaks the rules of 2nd Ed wide open.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. "Creative" interpretations of the rules often make for more fun.

AdaJ

It does give the dramaqueens a lot of ammo for their Stormwind Fallacy barrages, though, which annoys the crap out of me. If they hate numbers in their RP so much, why don't they just go LARPing and leave the rest of us alone in peace?

I don't really care what other people do with their games. You should see what I have done with my 3.5 house rules. I am the last person who can complain about people not playing the base game so the sole exclusion of everything else. I just wish the dramaqueens would give people like me the same courtesy.

Chad

IIRC their will still be an issue with you cleric(paladin)/mage... only fighter types get the extra 1/2 APR for getting weapon specialization. So for instance a swashbuckler can get two stats, but does not gain the 1/2 APR. I think you need NI to change this and allow specialization to give anyone besides fighter/ranger/paladin the benefit.

Lord_Tansheron

IIRC you can manually adjust APR in EEKeeper as well, but that would go for anything regardless of proficiency so it's not a perfect solution. NI can solve it to be sure but is a bit more complicated to use.

Chad

Lord_Tansheron said:

IIRC you can manually adjust APR in EEKeeper as well, but that would go for anything regardless of proficiency so it's not a perfect solution. NI can solve it to be sure but is a bit more complicated to use.

Ah, fantastic then! I haven't messed around much with EEKeeper, ist that a new option? I don't recall being able to increase APR in gate keeper/shadow keeper...

gorgonzola

It has ever been possible.

AdaJ

Actually, Cleric isn't needed. Ftr/Mage will do. A level 9 paladin won't have that many spells to begin with, and the low level Turn Undead is not going to matter. The only thing you'd want is the Lay on Hands for an emergency button and the warrior abilities.

He was a dual class, not a multiclass.