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Parting Ways with Jaheira and Minsc

So I am yet again beginning to brainstorm ideas for yet another playthrough and I've decided that this time, I'd like to try out NPCs that I normally ignore. Mazzy, Korgan, Haer'Dalis... maybe even his royal pompousness himself, Anomen. Basically, everyone other than Cernd (whom I despise) is on the table.

Since Jaheira and Minsc make it difficult to get too experimental with the party comp and have become almost permanent fixtures in many of my teams, I've decided to try and keep them out of the party this time. The problem is that I'm having a hard time justifying it from a RP perspective. I mean, they've been with you for the events of BG1 and SoD. Why would you part ways with them now? What's more, both of them have revenge as motivation for hunting down Irenicus, so I feel they wouldn't be keen on the idea of leaving them behind either.

Since I'm hardly the first person to try and drop them from the party, I'm curious as to how you all justify the act. How do you RP parting ways with your best friends when there is still work to be done? Assume that CHARNAME is of a good alignment and willingly traveled with the canon party for the events of BG1 and SoD. Also assume that they traveled with Jaheira and Minsc through Chateau Irenicus, meaning that CHARNAME is aware of the fact that they survived the attack on your group.

OrlonKronsteen
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Comments

  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    If you're sure you won't play with them later you can always have them killed. No sorrow for those lost in righteous battle. No finer placer to die than on the battle field, and all that. If you're kinder you can get them killed, raise them and leave them to recover ''for a while''. Minsc is easy to discard anytime because of his insanity. In BG1 I usually do his quest to rescue Dynaheir and then either keep them or leave them. In BG2 you can easily justify going separate ways after releasing him.

    If you've played the game a lot I recommend using EEKeeper to modify the classes of some of these NPCs to give them more replay value. For instance I am now playing with Dynaheir as a Shaman which better fits her description of a witch.

    Jaheira and Minsc are easy. What gives me more trouble is Valigar when I have a full good party with no room for him.

    And Jan, how can you not recruit him???

    OrlonKronsteenNightingaleAerakar
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 404
    The PC by BG2 should be aware that Jaheira is a Harper - if you happen to not like the idea of having a member of the party who is down with a secret society - who may be telling said secret organization about your activities and location - then it's very easy to justify removing Jaheira from the party. It's likewise also possible to say that maybe it's best she take some time off given Khalid's death.

    For Minsc, it's a little tougher to justify other than that you believe him to be unsettled/unpredictable lol. That is assuming you're not evil - if you're playing an evil CHARNAME minsc and his goody-goody hamster would be anathema.

    OrlonKronsteenNightingale
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 838
    You don't have to roll with the canon party just because it's thrust on you. In fact, one of the reasons I'm unlikely to play SOD again is because it reinforces the starting character selection in BG2, which always irritated me. The way I look at it, it's a single player game and you're free to make it our own. You can just pretend that Minsc and Jaheira aren't even in the dungeon. It'll have no effect on the game (other than you don't get Minsc and Jahiera). Sometimes I do take Jaheira because I don't mind her so much (now Khalid, on the other hand, is an NPC just begging to be chunked), but Minsc doesn't even exist in my personal BG universe, either in BG1 or 2, and hasn't since around 1998/99.

    Nightingale
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 630
    Minsc is extremely unreliable. Jaheira has an unjustified superior attitude. Neither of them has been a friend, despite the canon interpretation of BG1.

    So, I free them both but then part ways with them once I get to the Copper Coronet. It's very simple.

    Kurona
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 630
    As @Francois said, not taking Valygar is the most difficult choice if you play good. It's a real pain. Much more difficult than not taking Mazzy, for instance.

    The one I never, ever take is Edwin. He may be the most powerful mage in all the Realms for all I care, but anyone with an attitude like that is not going to get into my party, even if I'm playing evil.

    KuronaNightingale
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881

    The one I never, ever take is Edwin. He may be the most powerful mage in all the Realms for all I care, but anyone with an attitude like that is not going to get into my party, even if I'm playing evil.

    Interesting to note that Edwin is the only party member who can't really befriend anyone in BG2. Viconia is a bitch but she can get close to Charname and there's some sort of grudging respect between her and Jaheira (in the EE she also gets along with Hexxat). Korgan is chummy with the majority of the lineup, Anomen gets along with a few people and even Big S has a working relationship with Valygar (and potentially Charname and Imoen).

    But no one likes Edwin. It's like he's pathologically incapable to endear himself to anyone.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,591
    The way I play it is that Irenicus has been messing with my head and I just want to be left alone for a while to sort things out, as in: "Just go and stay in the Copper Coronet so that I know where you are. Once I've got my head straight, and some sort of plan, I'll come for you if I need your help."

  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 630
    @Kurona: Good point. Edwin is the epitome of a creep with no redeeming features whatsoever. It is worth noting that he also likes no one and nothing, except his own intellect.

    I'm not sure Viconia is a bitch. I agree that initially she's very difficult (in BG2), and her stories are dark indeed, but she has come from a very different world and her distrust of strangers is perfectly justified (just of think of the initial encounter with her in BG2).

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @xzar_monty

    "Edwin is the epitome of a creep with no redeeming features whatsoever"

    Not going to let that one go without an argument. :D

    No redeeming features except that he is the best mage in the game..........
    And apart from that, doesn't really give you any trouble, it's not Edwin who starts fights.

    Edwin seems to be written exactly as a RW of Thay should be, everything sacrificed for magical prowess, from a system that values nothing else.
    Yet he doesn't betray Charname.

    Don't see how you can forgive Viconia for her background yet ignore Edwin's.

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Those are two of my favorite npcs that I've never run without, but I'll give it a shot. Jaheira is a Harper and they have a guildhouse in the city. When you release her that is where she hangs out.
    Minsc, however, is harder.His closest companion is dead, and he has no contacts in the city. Getting him killed also seems cruel. When dismissed, he goes to the Copper Coronet, you could rp that wiht everthing that has happened, he spirals into depression and alchol, but that is still really really dark for him. Does that game give you the option to tell npcs to wait where they are when you dismiss them? I play with some mods, so I don't want to assume thats in the vanilla game. If you can, you could take him to remote place in the docks district that you wont have need to visit again, and leave him there. Easily rp'ed as waiting for a boat that can take him back to Rashemen.

    Nightingale
  • NightingaleNightingale Member Posts: 59
    edited December 2016
    Yulaw9460 said:

    Which class and alignment are you running with?

    I haven't decided on a class yet, though I don't think that would matter too much. There are enough characters to fill enough roles that I don't NEED to be any one class.

    As for alignment, it will likely be on the good side of the spectrum; probably neutral-good, though that depends ultimately on the class.

    @UnderstandMouseMagic Eh, I think you're a bit too harsh on Khalid and Jaheira. Minsc is a bit easier to kick out based on everything you brought up (I mean, he takes his orders from a hamster for crying out loud). But I can definitely see CHARNAME traveling with J and K. For starters, I think you give FAR too much credit to Xzar and Montaron. Monatron is NOT even remotely close to "nice". Everything from his bio to the way he speaks to you during your initial meeting if you try talking to him instead of Xzar implies that he's about one misunderstanding away from gutting you. He's surly at best and downright hostile at worst. And while Xzar is more personable, it's definitely in a more manipulative, using you to achieve his goals sort of way. Meeting him is definitely reminiscent of "Hello Little Girl" a la Into the Woods, at least in my opinion. Khalid and Jaheira on the other hand are actually very cordial when you first meet and talk about how they mourn Gorion's loss. Hell, Gorion even encourages you to seek them out. He trusted them, so obviously they can't be THAT bad (unless of course you're an evil/Chaotic Neutral CHARNAME who could give two kittens what Gorion thinks you should do). As for them taking you to Nashkel, I think it's a fairly reasonable thing to do, though it can be seen a irresponsible. First, they are both Harpers, which likely means that they know that you are being hunted and believe that staying on the move under their protection is far superior to remaining in one place for too long. After all, the whole reason you left Candlekeep is because Gorion had similar thoughts on the matter. Also, being Harpers, they likely have a suspicion that the concerns in Nashkel are linked to your current woes, and thus must be solved if you are to ever know peace. As for the "child" thing, I don't look too deeply into that. It's a common phrase tossed around by parental figures; a bit patronizing perhaps, but ultimately harmless. It's likely more a comment on the fact that you are naive to the ways of the world (which when you meet them, you likely are) than your prowess in combat. In fact, depending on the class, you might be even more combat capable than they are.

    @ThacoBell Yeah, I know what you mean. It's REALLY hard for me to run a good CHARNAME without both of them, and damn near impossible for me to run a game without Imoen, good or otherwise. I like your suggestions though. Jaheira does have connections and being able to take some time off to mourn Khalid could do her some good. And the Idea with Minsc and the docks is pretty clever too. I'm pretty sure you can ask them to remain in the current location in the vanilla game (I'm a mod lover too, but I'm almost positive on that count). The only thing I'm not certain about is whether they'll remain there indefinitely or temporarily before relocating to their default rest zone. A future experiment perhaps?

    ThacoBell
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
    Nightingale
  • In the game I am playing now, I have Minsc, Jaheira, Mazzy, Korgan, and Jan. I had Amonen, but when I added Dorn to my party, Amonen attacked him, and we had no choice but to kill him.

    Dorn started to get weird. He started hitting on my CHARNAME, who is female, and they ended up hooking up. Then Dorn seems to have lost his freaking mind for some reason. He attacked us, and then after we kicked his ass, he relented a bit. But after that, I tossed him. He was becoming too unstable.

    I recruited Keldorn, but I had to boot him as well, because I am working with Bodhi, and I'm sure he wouldn't stick around once he learned about that.

    I LOVE Minsc and Mazzy! I wish Mazzy was in BG1!

    I didn't really want Jaheira back in my party, but once I booted Dorn, I was looking around for fighters, and the only other one I could recruit was Valygar, and he just doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @SirBundlesofJoy_1912

    The only one you have left to take is Haer Dalis who can be used as a fighter.
    There won't be any conflicts using him either.

    But you are short of a cleric, that makes the game harder for dealing with undead.

  • Oh, my CHARNAME is a cleric, so all my bases are covered. I like that Jan is a mage/thief, that way he fills two "slots" in my party, and the rest can be fighters. That's usually how I play (a cleric, a thief, a mage, 3 fighters).

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @SirBundlesofJoy_1912 - you have dedicated Good-siders like Minsc and Mazzy, yet you work for Bodhi? Well, okay, that's fine if you can make it work for you, but it doesn't strike me as a natural combination.

    It seems pretty normal that Dorn will turn on you at some point, although he then seems to settle down once you show him who's in charge.

    As @UnderstandMouseMagic says, you look to be short of a Cleric, unless perhaps your protagonist is a Cleric. Clerics aren't essential, but it's certainly easier if you have one. It may therefore be an unfortunate handicap that you killed Anomen, he might have been better for you than Jaheira, since you're fighter-heavy even without her.

    Yes, Haer'Dalis can eventually be used as a fighter, and quite effectively, once you've got him set up with suitable equipment and good self-buffing spells. However, I don't find him much use in a warrior role in the earlier stages - his HP and THAC0 are both too weak at first - so you have to be patient if you want to use him that way.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Minsc and Mazzy are marvelous.

    GallowglassNightingaleSirBundlesofJoy_1912
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    Oh, my CHARNAME is a cleric, so all my bases are covered.

    Ah, ninja'ed! I hadn't yet seen this when I wrote my previous. Obviously some of my earlier remarks are thereby redundant.

  • I suppose it is weird that I am in a good party (except for Korgan, but the other PCs don't seem to mind him too much. At least no one has come to blows. But that dwarf can be a total dick). I wanted to work for Bodhi because the last time I played, I was on the side of the Shadow Thieves.

    I had wanted Keldorn in my party, and I replaced Jaheira with him. I am at the part of the game where I have to kill the Shadow Thieves. I am not sure if Keldorn will like that I am working with Bodhi. Minsc and Mazzy don't seem to mind. I mean, both groups are evil, right?

    If Keldorn bails, I guess I'll have to pick up Jaheira again. I tried to "spawn" Anomen, but I don't know the item code, if one exists. And I don't want to have to start over.

    I kind of like the idea of a mostly good party working with a vampire. I am sure "in game", the goody-goodies aren't really comfortable with that, and I think Minsc had mentioned this fact once or twice.
    Since their goal is to rescue Imoen, I like to think that "in game", they are doing what they need to do for the ultimate good, rescuing their friend. It makes the game more interesting as far as role-playing goes.

    So right now I am working with:

    CHARNAME - Sarra - cleric (Lawful Good)
    Minsc (Chaotic Good)
    Mazzy (Lawful Good)
    Keldorn (Lawful Good)
    Jan (Chaotic Neutral)
    Korgan (Chaotic Evil)

    Obviously I am Lawful Good heavy, with a small dose of Chaotic. Korgan is the only evil dude in my party, but the others don't seem to be too bothered by that. I figured Keldorn might have a problem, but so far, he's been quiet about it.

    ThacoBell
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    I sometimes roleplay that Jaheira goes back to the Harper's for an indeterminate amount of time. Minsc is more difficult and I like him more than I like Jaheira. I've pretended he's gone back to Rashemen (or continued on his wanderlust quest) but with Aerie as his new witch.

    JuliusBorisov
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Korgan is by far my favorite evil npc.

    Kurona
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    Yulaw9460 said:

    But you are short of a cleric, that makes the game harder for dealing with undead.

    Really? At which point?
    There's rather a lot of undead in BG2, exploding/turning them makes the game easier.
    Level drain is a PITA. Much better they never get the chance IMO.
    (also rather like the text box coming up with a long list of "dead" and the associated experience, silly I know, but at the Shade temple there's nothing better than allowing a large group of shades to converge and then blasting them)

    Gallowglass
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Yulaw9460 - yes, of course it's feasible to defeat undead by hacking them to pieces, but it's much easier to destroy them with Turn Undead. If you don't take a Cleric, you're making more work for yourself.

    The further you go in the game, the more true this is. Some high-level undead (e.g. liches) can be quite dangerous unless you kill them quickly, and can be quite tricky to defeat with swords alone, but a high-level Turn Undead can just explode them immediately.

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
    Gallowglass
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    @Yulaw9460 - yes, of course it's feasible to defeat undead by hacking them to pieces, but it's much easier to destroy them with Turn Undead. If you don't take a Cleric, you're making more work for yourself.

    The further you go in the game, the more true this is. Some high-level undead (e.g. liches) can be quite dangerous unless you kill them quickly, and can be quite tricky to defeat with swords alone, but a high-level Turn Undead can just explode them immediately.


    This reminds of a time playing through with Anomen.

    He was much higher level than I realised and I also didn't really understand "turn undead" that well.

    Got to the lich in Spellhold, Anomen was scouting ahead invisible, saw it come up in the text what the lich was doing, went back to party to prepare them for fight, leaving Anomen just standing around up the corridor out of sight.

    Went back for the fight all prepped up, no lich.....where was the lich?
    Ran around the corridors looking for lich.....................
    So looked in the text, Lich dead, experience...
    I thought the game had a bug.........

    GallowglassKurona
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but before SOD (which I haven't played, I admit), there is nothing to strictly insist that Jaheira, Minsc, and their adventuring partners were members of your party when you killed Sarevok. They do claim to have had adventures with you, and evidently you are forced not to have killed Dynaheir in BG1, but nothing states that this had to happen immediately after you defeated Sarevok.

    So maybe you defeat Sarevok, your party went separate ways, and then after departing Baldur's Gate to go south, you rendezvous with Jaheira at the Friendly Arm Inn, and acquaint yourself with Minsc in Nashkel. Two days later, your party is set upon, and BG2 begins.

    The only foil to this that I recall is a dialogue in ToB where Jaheira alleges to have been at the battle with Sarevok. If you don't take him with you, though, this need not apply. Following this logic, there's nothing to force you in with Jaheira or Minsc from an RP perspective.

    typo_tillyKurona
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