As long as we're exploring possible ulterior motives, perhaps they're trying to clear spots in the roster to make the player more likely to use the new/revamped NPCs. I mean, they put all that work into the new/redone characters--if no one used them, what fun would that be?
P.S.: before someone brings up her mandatory dual-class for the sake of BG2's plot, that was also a non-issue. An unspecified amount of time passes between the final battle with Sarevok and entering Korlasz's tomb. Why not have her become a Thief/Mage in the meantime? Make her unavailable in the first dungeon if you must and then let her join you before you leave the city.
Might be mistaken but I believe it is said that Korlasz's hunt takes place within the weeks following Sarevok's demise. So that would extend this timespan to a month or two at most, clearly not enough for someone to become a decent level mage in this universe. It normally takes years for a mage to reach level 7-8 in the forgotten realms. Of course it takes less when you are playing the game, for playability reasons, but it would definitely feel wrong if Imoen could reach level 7 within a couple of weeks. The fact that a PC mage can reach level 31 (Elminster's level) in less than a year (Elminster's 1000 yo !!) if you play the full saga is totally unrealistic. Same thing if you limit that to BG1 and your PC reaching the level of Thalantyr (who's said to be a very powerful mage, according to in-game lines) in a couple of monthes.
It normally takes years for a mage to reach level 7-8 in the forgotten realms. Of course it takes less when you are playing the game, for playability reasons, but it would definitely feel wrong if Imoen could reach level 7 within a couple of weeks.
When you add these couple of weeks to however many in-game days you'd take to reach SoD's final cutscenes you still have only a couple of months or so.
Well, you said it yourself that these games ignore a sensible timeframe when it comes to the evolution of you and your party's power.
In BG2 there's not much detail about what Irenicus actually does to charname/Imoen, vague references to unlocking potential and torture. There's a veiled reference to Irenicus raping Imoen.
For my head cannon, as I never take her with me, that she is now able to cast spells I have always put down to Irenicus. Her intelligence is high, why wouldn't he teach her the ability to cast magic if, in his twisted mind, he considered that a good way for her to kill and therefore awaken the Bhaal taint?
What does Irenicus want? The souls, but not just the souls, souls that are tainted with Bhaal's power. So Imoen quite possibly has never killed anyone and is an innocent because the game allows you to leave her like that. But that wouldn't be what Irenicus wanted.
SOD has created confusion and disappointment where it wasn't needed. Imoen being dualed to mage is a popular way of playing, and if she isn't, Irenicus and his madness gives a reason why at the start of BG2 she is a mage. Irenicus wants her to kill, to revel in death, (which is alluded to with the Khalid cutting response, did she actually kill Khalid?, possible).
Instead, as the situation stands, play with Imoen, dual her, get her up to the highest possible level, (casting spells alongside Dynaheir, Xan, Edwin,) and it makes the start of SOD nonsense. BG has allowed you to do that. SOD has arbitarily decided that the way you played BG was wrong. BG2 never has because the time gap allowed a workaround for people's head cannon.
Yeah. He is an emotionless, xeno-phobic elven archmage. He has dryads around just to make them instill emotion. He makes clones of his former love, hoping to rekindle even a spark of feeling. He just ends up killing the clones over and over again. His devoted followers are left in a state of undying torture because his friendship and loyalty died due to the curse. We only see him torture with his spells, and all Imoen's dialogue shows is mental torture and forcing her to witness death and murder. You know, to awaken her Bhaal-taint. I see 0 evidence pointing toward rape. That seems completely out of character for him.
and i head cannoned that the canon party met up at the end of bg1 and then got kidnapped. and look at that that's exactly what happens at the end of siege.
really you can only go so far with head canon. sod was made to bridge a gap it was going to contradict someones interpretation.
Headcanon is still that though. Just head canon. Also, there is no implication that Imoen was raped.
The dryads say she was touched the same way they were. Make of it what you will.
As for "just head cannon", that's so very dismissive of how people have been playing the game for years. Very dismissive of the whole reason SOD was even made, without those people, BG would have died.
I don't expect the writers to follow individuals head cannon, or fanfic, or mods. But I cannot understand why SOD was written to cut across so much either. Compromise is not a dirty word.
A short time reading this or any other forum discussing BG, would have alerted the writers that dualing Imoen was a very popular way to go in BG and also that she was a very popular companion. Is it really so much to ask that the SOD story could have worked with that rather than against it?
And actually it would have been nice for players if Imoen had been expanded more as she has so little in BG2 because of the late decision to not kill her off.
Headcanon is still that though. Just head canon. Also, there is no implication that Imoen was raped.
The dryads say she was touched the same way they were. Make of it what you will.
As for "just head cannon", that's so very dismissive of how people have been playing the game for years. Very dismissive of the whole reason SOD was even made, without those people, BG would have died.
I don't expect the writers to follow individuals head cannon, or fanfic, or mods. But I cannot understand why SOD was written to cut across so much either. Compromise is not a dirty word.
A short time reading this or any other forum discussing BG, would have alerted the writers that dualing Imoen was a very popular way to go in BG and also that she was a very popular companion. Is it really so much to ask that the SOD story could have worked with that rather than against it?
And actually it would have been nice for players if Imoen had been expanded more as she has so little in BG2 because of the late decision to not kill her off.
The dryads never said they were touched...were they? Could you please provide a quote?
Also I have done several saga runs and never dualed Imoen. I always head canones that she learned between adventures, because of a lack of a tutor. Why should SoD follow your head canon and not mine? I don't understand why you assume that everyone duals her like you do...
Dryad 1:We are his possessions. Dryad 2:His servants. Dryad 3:His concubines. Please help us to escape!
Imoen to the Dryads:I used to dream... but he doesn't. Your charms don't work on him anymore, do they?
Dryad 1:How do you know of this? He has touched you as we, hasn't he? Irenicus searches for something he cannot find, and he looks within those that have no more idea than he.
As I said, make your own mind up.
I am not suggesting SOD should follow individuals head cannon. Rather that it shouldn't have made people's head cannon (in such an old game) a bad fit.
You never dual her, OK that needs to be accomodated, some people dual her, OK that needs to be accomodated. The original game allowed both, SOD has not. If you dualed Imoen, that should have been catered for in SOD rather than the assumption that she cannot travel with you because she needs to learn magic (because that's how you have played the game so far and you were allowed to) There should have the choice to say words to the effect of, "Imoen has been throwing spells around like an old pro for months, there's no need for her to stay behind and learn in BG"
No individual's headcannon, no "we're doing it this way", no "I never play like that". Choice.
Wow I have read that line a million times and not come away with that dark conclusion. Just think of the intellectual property you are discussing as reasonable proof that the line was not infer rape. You might see that in modern Forgotten Realms novels now that Salvatore has gone a bit darker, but back then you just did not see allusions to rape Forgotten Realms at the time. Seemed more like they had a kinda classy comic book code thing going. But then again the trash that happens in the BG novels disproves everything I just said. Darn.
Wow I have read that line a million times and not come away with that dark conclusion. Just think of the intellectual property you are discussing as reasonable proof that the line was not infer rape. You might see that in modern Forgotten Realms novels now that Salvatore has gone a bit darker, but back then you just did not see allusions to rape Forgotten Realms at the time. Seemed more like they had a kinda classy comic book code thing going. But then again the trash that happens in the BG novels disproves everything I just said. Darn.
Still don't see the rape over tones, as it just doesn't seem like Irenicus. He doesn't come across sexual in any way, nor does he seem to revel in overpowering others. He is devoid of emotion due to his curse. So don't see the motive, and the language doesn't strike me. But thanks for the quote, I can see where you are coming from.
And as to Imoen, I see your point. While it's no worse than what vanilla gave us, that isn't an excuse why it couldn't have been handled better. Perhaps leaving for "more training" or the like adds enough ambiguity.
he is emotionless to even do anything to her. besides forcing her to watch him murder one of thier allies and mind rapeing her we don't know what he did.
Irenicus isn't entirely emotionless. He has lost the capacity for many emotions, but his lust for power and vengeance is surely emotional. (Quite a good depiction of a classic sociopath, in fact - many emotions flat-lining, but some emotions remaining strong, or even growing to fill the "emotional vacuum".)
If Irenicus were nothing but coldly rational, then he'd see that his rational best interest lay in playing nice and earning his way back into Suldanessellar by repentance and merit - which Ellesime eventually explains was a genuine possibility and was what she had hoped he would do (with the implication that the Seldarine would eventually restore his soul in that case, else it'd be pointless). But no, Irenicus was too angry (emotional!) for that.
As for @UnderstandMouseMagic's point about Imoen possibly having been raped ... yes. When I first read the same dialogue (as quoted), I also noticed that it could be read as a thinly-veiled implication of rape. I wasn't sure that was what it meant, and eventually concluded in the context of the story and characters that it was probably meant to refer to mental and emotional abuse, but rape isn't an absurd interpretation of what was said.
Sometimes it's hard to imagine there are ways to be touched that are worse than rape. Sometimes there are things containing more emotion than sex.
I personally never came to the rape conclusion, but the fact that someone can read something one way, and another person another way, is exactly why the BG series is great.
SoD is more analogous to IWD. It's not a problem, it just...is. The fact that you can play BG1 so many different ways, and BG2 so many different ways, and SoD so many different ways (but a little less) makes SoD stick out more.
When looking for the dialog I was refering to for @Grum, it was in an old thread (with a poll) on SHS forums.
In that thread somebody posted this,
"Yet if you wait long enough and have the right people around and choose the right conversation options, and then wait a little longer after that, you actually get a hint in a different direction.
"Do you want to know that I can feel the knives of Irenicus, cutting you . . . torturing you? That I can feel his hands . . . and his breath? Yes, I *know* what he did to you, Imoen . . ." -- Sarevok"
Can anybody confirm that they have seen this dialog too?
My attitude to whether Irenicus did or didn't rape Imoen, my female charname, Jaheira, Dynaheir or anybody else (or let somebody else for that matter) is, Why wouldn't he if he believed even slightly that it might awaken some emotion in himself or that it would serve his own ends in some twisted way.
Irenicus is a very, very bad person. Not sure why there is a belief that there is any line he wouldn't cross. I think the writers avoided the possible controversy of spelling it out (and obviously to not upset players) but I don't believe that it was for the reason that they believed Irenicus had some standards.
Still don't see the rape over tones, as it just doesn't seem like Irenicus. He doesn't come across sexual in any way, nor does he seem to revel in overpowering others. He is devoid of emotion due to his curse. So don't see the motive, and the language doesn't strike me. But thanks for the quote, I can see where you are coming from.
I'd say it's the exact opposite; Jon Bon certainly comes off as someone who revels in having power over others and who wouldn't care about consent. He has enslaved the dryads as his concubines, which does imply sex (and he put them next to the bedroom-slash-shrine to his ex). He even made clones of said ex, just so he could kill them again and again.
I never said any of that, you got the wrong forumite...
Irenicus is a very, very bad person. Not sure why there is a belief that there is any line he wouldn't cross. I think the writers avoided the possible controversy of spelling it out (and obviously to not upset players) but I don't believe that it was for the reason that they believed Irenicus had some standards.
I feel like you're reading way too far into this whole rape thing. If that's how you experienced it, there's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't be surprised if Jon was meant to be impotent and unable to sexually assault Imoen and instead had to result to torturing her.
Given that this is the Forgotten Realms, there may be a "Raise Boner" spell I'm unaware of. If that is the case I retract my statement.
IRenicus is not a bad person. Once I read an analysis made for him by a guy who actually studied everything he did and in the end he was a victim of Ellesime. Now that's the real bitch queen
IRenicus is not a bad person. Once I read an analysis made for him by a guy who actually studied everything he did and in the end he was a victim of Ellesime. Now that's the real bitch queen
What? Please elaborate:
(1) He attempts to force divinity on himself by messing with the tree of life. He fails, causing serious harm to weaker elves nearby. (2) His elven nature is taken away. He is sentenced to be like a mortal human so that he may learn humility. She expected him to take his exile from his home to realize how special it is, and to come back and ask for forgiveness. (3) He doesn't. The curse gets worse and worse. He can't break it, as it appears divine in nature. His sister and him look for ways to counter it. (4) His plan is to steal someone else's soul. And he does it. (5) He returns and makes war on his own people. Not just the queen, but he murders innocent civilians. We watch him actually do this, slaughting fleeing noncombatants. (6) He tries to steal divinity again.
Please tell me how any of this makes him into anything but a bad person.
It's a really morbid way of trying to recreate love for Ellesime, but imo it was all about Ellesime as well. Hence all the reminders of Ellesime...The chamber and the clone and using Dryads for their ability to charm...So I do think that was actually genuine, but everything else.. well I've a hard time finding anything decent about that. And ultimately his ambition to become a god triumphed over his love even before his curse, so I guess there's that. His sister didn't help either...
Not the first mortal..Good or evil(by D&D alignments) to try his hand at ascension though...^^
Guys that post was made by me, but I can't find it, it was in another forum but anyway I will try to summarize it once again.
The whole story is not really as straightforward as you would imply it is. I have a bit of time, so I will actually try to explain and empathize why I think that Irenicus is all but a bad person, and try to explain what are my current thoughts concerning the whole ordeal.
I think that the real villain, at least for our Bhaalspawn, is Ellesime. Yes, you read well. Ellesime.
If you wish to see the story from a third standpoint the fault also lies in irenicus.
It was pride that blinded Irenicus and maybe he was not as sure of himself as he claimed to be. Honestly, I think that he really felt in love with Ellesime and he truly loved her so much, but he was simply scared that he would be left in the "story" as the mere husband of a demi-goddess, because Ellesime itself is implied to be a child of Seldarine.
Irenicus was scared that he would not be enough for her, or at least, that he would always be remembered as the second, the husband of a demigod; he was scared that he wouldn't be great, that he would always have to prove himself.
His lust for power is also due to Bodhi who actually played on these fears Irenicus had because he was a so talented individual that she wanted to use him for her own purposes, because he saw what Irenicus was, and she knew that Irenicus could reach even the ranking of GOD if he wanted or if he really tried to.
So, when he thought was the moment, he actually besieged Suldanesselar and was trashed here. Do you think that Irenicus wanted a second chance? He was viewed as one if not the most talented boy inside Suldanesselar, and do you really think he would lie crying and put himself in knees in front of ellesime asking for forgiveness? Guys he is a prideful human being and honestly, I couldn't even image myself doing such a thing.
What was the sentence that would be granted to any other mage? DEATH
What happened? He was given an exile, and in my mind I can imagine the smirk on ellesime's face that actually wants to once again prove her superiority on him, while he gets treated as something less than a elf, a hollow shell.
So, after his soul was removed, what did he try to do? He couldn't feel anything, if not some spark of emotions in the first time. I would bet he tried to feel REGRET. He hated her but he also CLINGED TO THE MEMORY of the love he once had for HER. But there was nothing. NOTHING TO BE FELT. He was hollow. VOID. EMPTY
He was stripped of what made him ELF; LEFT HIM WITH NO EMOTIONS.
He became cold. And in his coldness he actually tried to counter the effects of the curse it was put unto him. He even made the mask, to CLAIM THAT HE WAS JOHN, and THEY COULDN'T ROB HIM OF HIS PERSONALITY.
When he saw he had simply no chance to even feel regret, he actually started once again all his plans, because he knew that it was all that was left him. I cannot imagine Irenicus asking for forgiveness, simply because he wanted DEATH. And honestly, the status he was brought unto was worse than death according to me.
Then you ask me why would my Bhaalspawn forgive him but not Ellesime? You would be crazy to think that I've even got the slight sympathy for ellesime. To me, the fact that she even acted in such a way, claiming that it was out of love, is simply out of every logical perspective.
Guys that post was made by me, but I can't find it, it was in another forum but anyway I will try to summarize it once again.
The whole story is not really as straightforward as you would imply it is. I have a bit of time, so I will actually try to explain and empathize why I think that Irenicus is all but a bad person, and try to explain what are my current thoughts concerning the whole ordeal.
I think that the real villain, at least for our Bhaalspawn, is Ellesime. Yes, you read well. Ellesime.
If you wish to see the story from a third standpoint the fault also lies in irenicus.
It was pride that blinded Irenicus and maybe he was not as sure of himself as he claimed to be. Honestly, I think that he really felt in love with Ellesime and he truly loved her so much, but he was simply scared that he would be left in the "story" as the mere husband of a demi-goddess, because Ellesime itself is implied to be a child of Seldarine.
Irenicus was scared that he would not be enough for her, or at least, that he would always be remembered as the second, the husband of a demigod; he was scared that he wouldn't be great, that he would always have to prove himself.
His lust for power is also due to Bodhi who actually played on these fears Irenicus had because he was a so talented individual that she wanted to use him for her own purposes, because he saw what Irenicus was, and she knew that Irenicus could reach even the ranking of GOD if he wanted or if he really tried to.
So, when he thought was the moment, he actually besieged Suldanesselar and was trashed here. Do you think that Irenicus wanted a second chance? He was viewed as one if not the most talented boy inside Suldanesselar, and do you really think he would lie crying and put himself in knees in front of ellesime asking for forgiveness? Guys he is a prideful human being and honestly, I couldn't even image myself doing such a thing.
What was the sentence that would be granted to any other mage? DEATH
What happened? He was given an exile, and in my mind I can imagine the smirk on ellesime's face that actually wants to once again prove her superiority on him, while he gets treated as something less than a elf, a hollow shell.
So, after his soul was removed, what did he try to do? He couldn't feel anything, if not some spark of emotions in the first time. I would bet he tried to feel REGRET. He hated her but he also CLINGED TO THE MEMORY of the love he once had for HER. But there was nothing. NOTHING TO BE FELT. He was hollow. VOID. EMPTY
He was stripped of what made him ELF; LEFT HIM WITH NO EMOTIONS.
He became cold. And in his coldness he actually tried to counter the effects of the curse it was put unto him. He even made the mask, to CLAIM THAT HE WAS JOHN, and THEY COULDN'T ROB HIM OF HIS PERSONALITY.
When he saw he had simply no chance to even feel regret, he actually started once again all his plans, because he knew that it was all that was left him. I cannot imagine Irenicus asking for forgiveness, simply because he wanted DEATH. And honestly, the status he was brought unto was worse than death according to me.
Then you ask me why would my Bhaalspawn forgive him but not Ellesime? You would be crazy to think that I've even got the slight sympathy for ellesime. To me, the fact that she even acted in such a way, claiming that it was out of love, is simply out of every logical perspective.
Don't often do this but,
The guy would have a been a saint, a pussycat, a second Elminster, just those bloody women causing all this trouble? How dare they have a status greater than his.
The man is murderous scum and this is victim blaming. And Irenicus is no stranger to enacting never ending curses on people, Centeol, (which frankly I would have killed him for without BG2 even existing).
Comments
It normally takes years for a mage to reach level 7-8 in the forgotten realms.
Of course it takes less when you are playing the game, for playability reasons, but it would definitely feel wrong if Imoen could reach level 7 within a couple of weeks.
The fact that a PC mage can reach level 31 (Elminster's level) in less than a year (Elminster's 1000 yo !!) if you play the full saga is totally unrealistic. Same thing if you limit that to BG1 and your PC reaching the level of Thalantyr (who's said to be a very powerful mage, according to in-game lines) in a couple of monthes.
Well, you said it yourself that these games ignore a sensible timeframe when it comes to the evolution of you and your party's power.
For my head cannon, as I never take her with me, that she is now able to cast spells I have always put down to Irenicus.
Her intelligence is high, why wouldn't he teach her the ability to cast magic if, in his twisted mind, he considered that a good way for her to kill and therefore awaken the Bhaal taint?
What does Irenicus want?
The souls, but not just the souls, souls that are tainted with Bhaal's power.
So Imoen quite possibly has never killed anyone and is an innocent because the game allows you to leave her like that.
But that wouldn't be what Irenicus wanted.
SOD has created confusion and disappointment where it wasn't needed.
Imoen being dualed to mage is a popular way of playing, and if she isn't, Irenicus and his madness gives a reason why at the start of BG2 she is a mage.
Irenicus wants her to kill, to revel in death, (which is alluded to with the Khalid cutting response, did she actually kill Khalid?, possible).
Instead, as the situation stands, play with Imoen, dual her, get her up to the highest possible level, (casting spells alongside Dynaheir, Xan, Edwin,) and it makes the start of SOD nonsense.
BG has allowed you to do that. SOD has arbitarily decided that the way you played BG was wrong.
BG2 never has because the time gap allowed a workaround for people's head cannon.
really you can only go so far with head canon. sod was made to bridge a gap it was going to contradict someones interpretation.
Make of it what you will.
As for "just head cannon", that's so very dismissive of how people have been playing the game for years. Very dismissive of the whole reason SOD was even made, without those people, BG would have died.
I don't expect the writers to follow individuals head cannon, or fanfic, or mods.
But I cannot understand why SOD was written to cut across so much either.
Compromise is not a dirty word.
A short time reading this or any other forum discussing BG, would have alerted the writers that dualing Imoen was a very popular way to go in BG and also that she was a very popular companion.
Is it really so much to ask that the SOD story could have worked with that rather than against it?
And actually it would have been nice for players if Imoen had been expanded more as she has so little in BG2 because of the late decision to not kill her off.
Also I have done several saga runs and never dualed Imoen. I always head canones that she learned between adventures, because of a lack of a tutor. Why should SoD follow your head canon and not mine? I don't understand why you assume that everyone duals her like you do...
Managed to find the dialog,
Dryad 1:We are his possessions.
Dryad 2:His servants.
Dryad 3:His concubines. Please help us to escape!
Imoen to the Dryads:I used to dream... but he doesn't. Your charms don't work on him anymore, do they?
Dryad 1:How do you know of this? He has touched you as we, hasn't he? Irenicus searches for something he cannot find, and he looks within those that have no more idea than he.
As I said, make your own mind up.
I am not suggesting SOD should follow individuals head cannon.
Rather that it shouldn't have made people's head cannon (in such an old game) a bad fit.
You never dual her, OK that needs to be accomodated, some people dual her, OK that needs to be accomodated.
The original game allowed both, SOD has not.
If you dualed Imoen, that should have been catered for in SOD rather than the assumption that she cannot travel with you because she needs to learn magic (because that's how you have played the game so far and you were allowed to)
There should have the choice to say words to the effect of,
"Imoen has been throwing spells around like an old pro for months, there's no need for her to stay behind and learn in BG"
No individual's headcannon, no "we're doing it this way", no "I never play like that".
Choice.
Still don't see the rape over tones, as it just doesn't seem like Irenicus. He doesn't come across sexual in any way, nor does he seem to revel in overpowering others. He is devoid of emotion due to his curse. So don't see the motive, and the language doesn't strike me. But thanks for the quote, I can see where you are coming from.
And as to Imoen, I see your point. While it's no worse than what vanilla gave us, that isn't an excuse why it couldn't have been handled better. Perhaps leaving for "more training" or the like adds enough ambiguity.
If Irenicus were nothing but coldly rational, then he'd see that his rational best interest lay in playing nice and earning his way back into Suldanessellar by repentance and merit - which Ellesime eventually explains was a genuine possibility and was what she had hoped he would do (with the implication that the Seldarine would eventually restore his soul in that case, else it'd be pointless). But no, Irenicus was too angry (emotional!) for that.
As for @UnderstandMouseMagic's point about Imoen possibly having been raped ... yes. When I first read the same dialogue (as quoted), I also noticed that it could be read as a thinly-veiled implication of rape. I wasn't sure that was what it meant, and eventually concluded in the context of the story and characters that it was probably meant to refer to mental and emotional abuse, but rape isn't an absurd interpretation of what was said.
I personally never came to the rape conclusion, but the fact that someone can read something one way, and another person another way, is exactly why the BG series is great.
SoD is more analogous to IWD. It's not a problem, it just...is. The fact that you can play BG1 so many different ways, and BG2 so many different ways, and SoD so many different ways (but a little less) makes SoD stick out more.
In that thread somebody posted this,
"Yet if you wait long enough and have the right people around and choose the right conversation options, and then wait a little longer after that, you actually get a hint in a different direction.
"Do you want to know that I can feel the knives of Irenicus, cutting you . . . torturing you? That I can feel his hands . . . and his breath? Yes, I *know* what he did to you, Imoen . . ." -- Sarevok"
Can anybody confirm that they have seen this dialog too?
My attitude to whether Irenicus did or didn't rape Imoen, my female charname, Jaheira, Dynaheir or anybody else (or let somebody else for that matter) is,
Why wouldn't he if he believed even slightly that it might awaken some emotion in himself or that it would serve his own ends in some twisted way.
Irenicus is a very, very bad person. Not sure why there is a belief that there is any line he wouldn't cross.
I think the writers avoided the possible controversy of spelling it out (and obviously to not upset players) but I don't believe that it was for the reason that they believed Irenicus had some standards.
Given that this is the Forgotten Realms, there may be a "Raise Boner" spell I'm unaware of. If that is the case I retract my statement.
(1) He attempts to force divinity on himself by messing with the tree of life. He fails, causing serious harm to weaker elves nearby.
(2) His elven nature is taken away. He is sentenced to be like a mortal human so that he may learn humility. She expected him to take his exile from his home to realize how special it is, and to come back and ask for forgiveness.
(3) He doesn't. The curse gets worse and worse. He can't break it, as it appears divine in nature. His sister and him look for ways to counter it.
(4) His plan is to steal someone else's soul. And he does it.
(5) He returns and makes war on his own people. Not just the queen, but he murders innocent civilians. We watch him actually do this, slaughting fleeing noncombatants.
(6) He tries to steal divinity again.
Please tell me how any of this makes him into anything but a bad person.
Not the first mortal..Good or evil(by D&D alignments) to try his hand at ascension though...^^
The whole story is not really as straightforward as you would imply it is. I have a bit of time, so I will actually try to explain and empathize why I think that Irenicus is all but a bad person, and try to explain what are my current thoughts concerning the whole ordeal.
I think that the real villain, at least for our Bhaalspawn, is Ellesime. Yes, you read well. Ellesime.
If you wish to see the story from a third standpoint the fault also lies in irenicus.
It was pride that blinded Irenicus and maybe he was not as sure of himself as he claimed to be. Honestly, I think that he really felt in love with Ellesime and he truly loved her so much, but he was simply scared that he would be left in the "story" as the mere husband of a demi-goddess, because Ellesime itself is implied to be a child of Seldarine.
Irenicus was scared that he would not be enough for her, or at least, that he would always be remembered as the second, the husband of a demigod; he was scared that he wouldn't be great, that he would always have to prove himself.
His lust for power is also due to Bodhi who actually played on these fears Irenicus had because he was a so talented individual that she wanted to use him for her own purposes, because he saw what Irenicus was, and she knew that Irenicus could reach even the ranking of GOD if he wanted or if he really tried to.
So, when he thought was the moment, he actually besieged Suldanesselar and was trashed here. Do you think that Irenicus wanted a second chance? He was viewed as one if not the most talented boy inside Suldanesselar, and do you really think he would lie crying and put himself in knees in front of ellesime asking for forgiveness? Guys he is a prideful human being and honestly, I couldn't even image myself doing such a thing.
What was the sentence that would be granted to any other mage? DEATH
What happened? He was given an exile, and in my mind I can imagine the smirk on ellesime's face that actually wants to once again prove her superiority on him, while he gets treated as something less than a elf, a hollow shell.
So, after his soul was removed, what did he try to do? He couldn't feel anything, if not some spark of emotions in the first time. I would bet he tried to feel REGRET. He hated her but he also CLINGED TO THE MEMORY of the love he once had for HER. But there was nothing. NOTHING TO BE FELT. He was hollow. VOID. EMPTY
He was stripped of what made him ELF; LEFT HIM WITH NO EMOTIONS.
He became cold. And in his coldness he actually tried to counter the effects of the curse it was put unto him. He even made the mask, to CLAIM THAT HE WAS JOHN, and THEY COULDN'T ROB HIM OF HIS PERSONALITY.
When he saw he had simply no chance to even feel regret, he actually started once again all his plans, because he knew that it was all that was left him. I cannot imagine Irenicus asking for forgiveness, simply because he wanted DEATH. And honestly, the status he was brought unto was worse than death according to me.
Then you ask me why would my Bhaalspawn forgive him but not Ellesime? You would be crazy to think that I've even got the slight sympathy for ellesime. To me, the fact that she even acted in such a way, claiming that it was out of love, is simply out of every logical perspective.
Don't often do this but,
The guy would have a been a saint, a pussycat, a second Elminster, just those bloody women causing all this trouble?
How dare they have a status greater than his.
The man is murderous scum and this is victim blaming.
And Irenicus is no stranger to enacting never ending curses on people, Centeol, (which frankly I would have killed him for without BG2 even existing).