A suggestion for Assassins

Mungri

I was just thinking about the assassin kit, and thought of the following slight tweaks that could improve and work great with the class. Though I do realize that this won't ever happen, I was wondering what other people think:

Assassin kit additional rules:

- May place up to 5 proficieny points in daggers
- May place 2 proficiency points in single weapon style
- +1 strength on character creation / or fighter thaco progression
- Cannot place any proficiency points any other fighting styles

elminster

He seems unusually proficient in dagger use in combat, but the 2 point proficiency in single weapon use is interesting.

Mungri

Since assassins are typically meant to be awesome with daggers. Or maybe just allowing 2 points would be better.

kamuizin

The thief kit should get the sneak attack option to use it or backstab, people can't go for hide in shadows in the middle of a combat (and one HLA skill should be make to cover this issue) and backstabs are a lot overpowered anyway.

So they're not funny cos the fight finish too fast and not funny also cos you can't use them all the times propelly, unless you abuse of invisible items or potions, then you multiply x10 the lack of fun cos now the fights finish TOO MUCH FAST.

Don't agree with no proficience restrictions, many assassin's use shortbow and they are totally coherent, also we have Elzio Alditore in Assassin's Creed with his 2 hidden blade... so...

But 5 prof points in dagger is ok, and fighter thac0 should be applied when they backstab (or sneak attack if implemented).

elminster

Yea I think 2 points would be more appropriate. Maybe hitting as if you have 5 proficiency points specifically when you are backstabbing (like kamuizin suggested).

Brude

Wow, nice. I really love the focus on daggers for the kit.

The only thing I take issue with is restricting ranged weapon use. Assassins don't have a heck of a lot of utility outside their poisons, and especially at low levels, poisoning ranged weapons is key to fighting groups of mages.

Tanthalas

Mungri said:

- Gains fighter thaco and attacks per round when wielding daggers

Fighter THAC0 would be ok so they can land their backstabds, but I disagree with the bonus to attacks per round. Makes no sense for them to be better at melee than Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians, that are actual warrior classes.

Mungri

Yea that's a better suggestion.

So maybe 2-5 points in daggers, 2 points in single weapon, and fighter thaco with daggers should be possible, maybe also an extra bonus to hit with backstabs. The thing is though that you won't be backstabbing all the time, so making assassins better at combat with a single dagger is also helpful.

The reason I thought of being unable to place points in ranged weapons or other fighting styles was a counterbalance, and Assissins are for backstabbing which makes more sense with one weapon not two (swashbucklers are for 2 weapon fighting with thieves).

The main reason I can't bring myself to play an assassin is because they still can't hit things better than a fighter / thief, which even with a normal 5x backstab multiplier is much more reliable foe landing hits.

Philhelm

It seems too complicated a ruleset for the assassin kit. The fighter THAC0 is a bit much, since the warrior classes should be better toe-to-toe in combat, even with daggers. After all, the point of an assassin is to commit a murder, not to enter combat. Also, there is no reason why an assassin should not be able to use ranged weapons. I think what would make assassins better would be one of the following:

1. Can "backstab" with ranged weapons (perhaps for half the normal backstab modifier).
2. Can backstab opponents that would normally be immune, but with a chance for the normally immune target to make a fortitude save.
3. 5 more thieving skill points per level.

On the other hand, does the assassin kit need any improvements to begin with? I've always thought it was a fun kit.

kamuizin

In Elder Scroll Oblivion you could backstab with ranged weapons (with penality to the x? damage) and in Neverwinter Nights 2 you could also sneak attack with ranged weapons, maybe some work in what can be used to backstab should be added.

The game should also rewrite backstabs, anyone that make an attack from a script, a thief with an script to backstab for example, will also backstab no matter from which position that thief attack. That's pretty a bug for me.

Mungri

There's already a rogue rebalanced mod that brings the fighter thaco to swashbucklers but removes their +1 hit and damage every 5 levels.

Proficiencies can be very easily modded in the base 2da files, but I havnt been able to find what program I need to do this. I found a 2da editor for NWN, but it messed up my game hugely when I tried it on BG (I tried adding dual class to cleric option for stalkers and it completely broke the entire dual class list and mechanic for that class).

FrozenCells

I usually edit the Assassin kit if I play it to give a reason not to be a Fighter/Thief. I give +1 to hit at level 1/15/29 and add some appropriate spells as innates similarish to the NWN2 prestige class (Ghost Armour, True Strike, Invisibility etc.). Then I use Rogue Rebalancing and Refinement for the altered HLA tables. Less cheese, more power. It plays pretty well.

Mungri

That would be nice to give them invisibility as a power, but I don't remember BG having anything like TRUE strike?

elminster

kamuizin said:

In Elder Scroll Oblivion you could backstab with ranged weapons (with penality to the x? damage) and in Neverwinter Nights 2 you could also sneak attack with ranged weapons, maybe some work in what can be used to backstab should be added.

The game should also rewrite backstabs, anyone that make an attack from a script, a thief with an script to backstab for example, will also backstab no matter from which position that thief attack. That's pretty a bug for me.

Skyrim you could get 3x damage using a bow in stealth (which is basically "backstab" just lacking the stabbing part).

Mungri

Well I finally got around to doing a little simple 2DA file modding in BG2. I couldnt figure out how to mod the thaco tables for kits, so instead I gave assasin kit:

- 5 points placeable in daggers
- 2 points placeable in single weapon style
- +1 Strength on character creation (only because this was the only other easy to mod change I could find).

mjs

i don't think its necessary to make any changes. i ran a half-orc assassin once and he absolutely owned everything. especially with use all item HLA

Mungri

A plain Fighter / Thief owns better than a pure Assasin, that's the issue.

Does anyone know how to mod the thaco progression for kits?

FrozenCells

Mungri said:

That would be nice to give them invisibility as a power, but I don't remember BG having anything like TRUE strike?

It doesn't, but there's a True Strike spell in the Spell Revisions mod @ gibberlings3.

Dino

5 pts? Slight??

This is not a kensai, but rather a backstabber.

Oxford_Guy

@Mungri - I'd love a better (and more appropriate) Assassin kit too, maybe even some additional restrictions (as well as the non-SWF fighting styles) like only crossbows, darts (which are great with poison) and daggers (of course) for missile weapons too, with extra proficiency pips allowed in daggers and darts (5 might be excessive, 2 or 3 would be enough), but not crossbows. Maybe no staves either. Am not sure I like the + 1 STR, though an additonal +1 to THACO/Damage with daggers and maybe darts would be nice, but am not sure if this is possible. Could also alter the backstab progression, like in the rogue rebalancing kit, so that they start with x3 in backstab and then level in backstabs +1 to normal (up to +7).

Oxford_Guy

FrozenCells said:

I usually edit the Assassin kit if I play it to give a reason not to be a Fighter/Thief. I give +1 to hit at level 1/15/29 and add some appropriate spells as innates similarish to the NWN2 prestige class (Ghost Armour, True Strike, Invisibility etc.). Then I use Rogue Rebalancing and Refinement for the altered HLA tables. Less cheese, more power. It plays pretty well.

How did you add the +1 THACOs?

Oxford_Guy

Also, maybe allowing backstabs with darts and thrown daggers too (first hit only, obviously), but don't know if that's possible

mjs

Mungri said:

A plain Fighter / Thief owns better than a pure Assasin, that's the issue.

how much ownage does one man need? a fighter/mage is better than a mage, beastmasters are pretty much redundant. what do you do, make everything uber?

plus the poison ability is really really good

Oxford_Guy

mjs said:

Mungri said:

A plain Fighter / Thief owns better than a pure Assasin, that's the issue.

how much ownage does one man need? a fighter/mage is better than a mage, beastmasters are pretty much redundant. what do you do, make everything uber?

plus the poison ability is really really good

For me, its not just about making the Kit more powerful (though I think it needs a little bit of help here), its also about making it more appropriate - so some bonuses to things like daggers and darts, but nerfing other things, like no staves/no bows apart from crossbows/no weapon styles apart from SWF. Basically making it more different from a normal thief and more fun (not necessarily stronger) to play

FrozenCells

Oxford_Guy said:

How did you add the +1 THACOs?

Uh basically I made a Skald since they get a bonus +1thac0/damage, saved the game. Then I made the Assassin, saved that game too. Then I opened up both same games in ShadowKeeper and copied the Skald's Thac0 improvement code in the Affects tab to Assassin game's Affects tab. I don't remember which one it was but using this link it's pretty easy to work out http://iesdp.gibberlings3.net/appendices/bg2kitabilities.htm

Oxford_Guy

@FrozenCells - thanks, very clever!

Dino

Oxford_Guy said:

mjs said:

Mungri said:

A plain Fighter / Thief owns better than a pure Assasin, that's the issue.

how much ownage does one man need? a fighter/mage is better than a mage, beastmasters are pretty much redundant. what do you do, make everything uber?

plus the poison ability is really really good

For me, its not just about making the Kit more powerful (though I think it needs a little bit of help here), its also about making it more appropriate - so some bonuses to things like daggers and darts, but nerfing other things, like no staves/no bows apart from crossbows/no weapon styles apart from SWF. Basically making it more different from a normal thief and more fun (not necessarily stronger) to play

Weapon restrictions does hardly balance out power increase in my opinion.
To me, an assassin is not supposed to be a fighter, but a sneaky backstabber (slighly more so than regular thief).

Part of the problem as I see it is that multiclassing simply is too powerful.

Mungri

mjs said:

Mungri said:

A plain Fighter / Thief owns better than a pure Assasin, that's the issue.

how much ownage does one man need? a fighter/mage is better than a mage, beastmasters are pretty much redundant. what do you do, make everything uber?

plus the poison ability is really really good

mjs said:

Mungri said:

A plain Fighter / Thief owns better than a pure Assasin, that's the issue.

how much ownage does one man need? a fighter/mage is better than a mage, beastmasters are pretty much redundant. what do you do, make everything uber?

plus the poison ability is really really good

Multi / dual classes can't pick a kit in their second class, they are balanced in their inability to advance a kit up to the uber levels. A single class mage can pick a specialist school for a bonus spell per day, a dual class can't, and only gnome multiclasses can multiclass as illusionists.

Assasins are simply weak in my opinion, not because of their abilities but rather because of how hard it is to hit things with them, which is what I am wajting to improve.

Mungri

Dino said:

5 pts? Slight??

This is not a kensai, but rather a backstabber.

Kensais don't use single wielded daggers. A backstabber would have a lot of training in daggers. The daggers base damage is only 1D4, or 1D6 for just the longtooth, and no fighter class is going to focus on daggers over something like Katanas, Longswords or Scimitars. It makes sense to me from an RP persective that assasins should be able to reach a high level of proficiency with daggers, yet while only using a single one.

The +1 to strength I placed in is just a temporary work around untill I can figure out how to mod hit bonuses / thaco, as for the dagger mastery I realized that bonuses to hit cap out at 3 points so 3 points would he enough to get the desired to hit bonuses.

Dino

Mungri said:

Dino said:

5 pts? Slight??

This is not a kensai, but rather a backstabber.

Kensais don't use single wielded daggers. A backstabber would have a lot of training in daggers. The daggers base damage is only 1D4, or 1D6 for just the longtooth, and no fighter class is going to focus on daggers over something like Katanas, Longswords or Scimitars. It makes sense to me from an RP persective that assasins should be able to reach a high level of proficiency with daggers, yet while only using a single one.

The +1 to strength I placed in is just a temporary work around untill I can figure out how to mod hit bonuses / thaco, as for the dagger mastery I realized that bonuses to hit cap out at 3 points so 3 points would he enough to get the desired to hit bonuses.

I just think that if I was a Sword Coast assassin, Id be interested in anatomy rather than knife fighting. Different dagger coatings rather than brute force. Backstabbing only bonuses to hit and damage.

Also, have you tried Ranger: Stalker?

Mungri

Dagger mastery only bonuses to hit and damage as well, so what's the issue?