Min Dex requirement not enforced on multiclass gnome illusionists

Turin

This issue came up in a discussion over on the General discussion board (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6016/quayle/p2). Apologies if this has already been fixed, but I searched the forums and didn't find anything so here goes.

Current Behaviour:

During character creation (this is in a patched but unmodded install of BG2:ToB) of a multiclass gnome illusionist character, there is no minimum Dexterity requirement enforced by the illusionist class when abilities are rolled:

- A gnome cleric/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 3 (here is a screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/DBkyr.jpg);
- A gnome fighter/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 3;
- A gnome thief/illusionist has a mimum Dexterity of 9.

Expected Behaviour:

As per PnP rules, an illusionist needs to have a mimum Dexterity of 16. In particular:

- A gnome cleric/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16;
- A gnome fighter/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16;
- A gnome thief/illusionist has a mimum Dexterity of 16.

From what people said in the above-mentioned discussion, I gather that vanilla BG1 displayed expected behaviour as I have described it here (I am not currently in a position to check this) so I assume it was not a deliberate decision by the original developers.

bigdogchris

This may be intended as a "house rule".

Other class attribute requirements are not enforced. Check out my Monk thread on the issue. I think it may be like this due to the way the game was designed. In PnP, you roll stats, then find a class based on those stats. In the game, you pick class first, then roll stats, automatically granted the requirements set by the developers.

If the game automatically gave you at least the minimal stat in all area's enforced/required by PnP, the original developers may of thought characters would be overpowered. I however think the minimal requirements should be fixed for all classes, even for non-primary attributes, this would prevent min/maxing, which I don't care for.

Tanthalas

I'll check this later in the beta to see if its still an issue.

But if the pure Illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16 in BGEE, multi-class gnome Illusionists should also have that minimum.

Mungri

If you will be fixing this, will you also update Quayle to 16 dexterity?

Tanthalas

@Mungri

Nope, for the same reason why we won't touch the illegal stats of Minsc, Coran and Kagain. Once NPCs are in the wild, minimum/maximum allowances for classes no longer apply.

Balquo

Why can't illegal stats be changed? I didn't quite understand the reason.

HaHaCharade

Mungri said:

If you will be fixing this, will you also update Quayle to 16 dexterity?

You can always hack him to a 16 dex if you want.

Tanthalas

@Balquo

My reasoning for not changing illegal stats of NPCs is that when you encounter them, they're more or less experienced adventurers:

- A CHARNAME Ranger that loses Wisdom during their journey doesn't stop from being a Ranger, same with Minsc and his blows to the head.

- Perhaps Coran and Kagain got themselves some stat tomes to reach their illegal stats.

- Quayle just sucks.

Balquo

Aye, that is a good point.

Miloch

"Illegal" maximum stats should not be changed. Reason being, there's no "maximum" you need to be any particular class, and there are ways of enhancing stats as mentioned, as well as exceptional individuals.

On the other hand, there *are* minimum stat requirements you need to be a certain class. Quayle sucking is just another reason to correct that.

AndreaColombo

Minsc's illegal scores make sense for his character concept, which is not that of the archetypical ranger.

Does Quayle's character concept justify a lower Dexterity score than the minimum required for gnome illusionists?

Tanthalas

I assume that he's a lazy ass Gnome and that affected his physical stats.

Turin

Tanthalas said:

But if the pure Illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16 in BGEE, multi-class gnome Illusionists should also have that minimum.

Yes, what @Tanthalas said. I have no opinion on whether Quayle should be changed, but a newly created PC illusionist should have a minimum Dex of 16, regardless of whether they are single class or multiclass, gnome or some other race. In BG2 this is not the case: gnome multiclass illusionists have a lower minimum Dexterity than other illusionists.

bigdogchris

It just occurred to me how bad @ss a Thief/Illusionist is ...

Miloch

Tanthalas said:

I assume that he's a lazy ass Gnome and that affected his physical stats.

I hardly think it's a question of laziness but one of agility in the case of learning the illusionist school. His wisdom is poor enough for a good cleric (10) but it meets the minimum requirement, which is a 9, i.e. average. His dexterity would need a single point increase to meet the minimum for an illusionist (15 -> 16).

And what's all this talk of "illegal" high stats? There's no such thing. A dwarf fighter with 20 constitution is not "illegal" i.e. - he can still quite "legally" be a fighter. That's like saying as soon as my half-orc fighter with 19 constitution gets his greedy paws on the tome of constitution and somehow reads it (which could be tough since he's probably technically illiterate with a negligible INT) then he automatically becomes an "illegal" fighter.

Balquo

Is Quayle the only NPC to suffer from incorrect minimum stats?

Tanthalas

@Miloch

Technically Quayle could also have lost a point a dexterity somehow, just like what happened to Minsc's wisdom.

@Balquo

Minsc's wisdom is also far too low for a Ranger.

Miloch

Minsc should really have been a berserker - I don't know why they had to make him a ranger. As for Quayle, I think it was just sloppiness in checking that the character meets the class requirements. That and an apparent racial hatred of gnomes on the part of the devs - they got the worst stats and no one bothered even giving them their own animation. Not to mention your female gnome cleric will look like a male dwarf.

Tanthalas

To be fair, Berserkers didn't exist in BG1.

Boo has always been what makes Minsc a Ranger for me.

Miloch

Tanthalas said:

Boo has always been what makes Minsc a Ranger for me.

Rofl.

Tanthalas

What? Everyone knows that its Boo that casts spells for Minsc.

Miloch

Boo is the true berserker. He goes for the eyes. Minsc is just his apprentice berserker.

bob_veng

AndreaColombo said:

Minsc's illegal scores make sense for his character concept, which is not that of the archetypical ranger.

Does Quayle's character concept justify a lower Dexterity score than the minimum required for gnome illusionists?

' - Totally agreed.
'' - It doesn't. i say give Quayle DEX16, it'll make him look a bit better and won't change anything for the worse.

Quartz

Heh. I had a big thread on this issue. Turns out:

In BG1 engine, the Minimum Dex requirement for multi-class Gnome Illusionists *IS* enforced, but in BGII engine, it is NOT. So yes, for BG:EE this will need to be fixed.

And also yes Quayle needs the extra Dex point. It's quite obviously an oversight.

Miloch

@Quartz - that doesn't surprise me. It's probably related the way they externalised class/race requirement tables, which also led to the BG2 bug in dual classing to a specialist mage.

jolly_bb

@Quartz, Quayle lost dex point due to old age - he's just old&clumsy When his character was created, his dex was surely higher, but detoriorated!

moody_mage

As his brain size increased due to his improving magical skills his balance suffered hence the lack of Dex.

Miloch

@jolly_bb @decado
You both get an "insightful" because I could not find the "unlike" button... :P

ETB

Tanthalas said:

- Quayle just sucks.

I think being fairly old is a better reason than sucking, even if the latter is also true.

Has there been much discussion about changing stats for a number of BG1 NPCs to be more competitive with others? They certainly made NPCs more balanced all around in BG2.

Tanthalas

@ETB

There will be no changes to NPC stats except maybe Quayle.