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Min Dex requirement not enforced on multiclass gnome illusionists

TurinTurin Member Posts: 42
edited November 2012 in Original BG2 Bugs
This issue came up in a discussion over on the General discussion board (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6016/quayle/p2). Apologies if this has already been fixed, but I searched the forums and didn't find anything so here goes.

Current Behaviour:

During character creation (this is in a patched but unmodded install of BG2:ToB) of a multiclass gnome illusionist character, there is no minimum Dexterity requirement enforced by the illusionist class when abilities are rolled:

- A gnome cleric/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 3 (here is a screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/DBkyr.jpg);
- A gnome fighter/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 3;
- A gnome thief/illusionist has a mimum Dexterity of 9.

Expected Behaviour:

As per PnP rules, an illusionist needs to have a mimum Dexterity of 16. In particular:

- A gnome cleric/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16;
- A gnome fighter/illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16;
- A gnome thief/illusionist has a mimum Dexterity of 16.

From what people said in the above-mentioned discussion, I gather that vanilla BG1 displayed expected behaviour as I have described it here (I am not currently in a position to check this) so I assume it was not a deliberate decision by the original developers.
Post edited by Balquo on

Comments

  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    This may be intended as a "house rule".

    Other class attribute requirements are not enforced. Check out my Monk thread on the issue. I think it may be like this due to the way the game was designed. In PnP, you roll stats, then find a class based on those stats. In the game, you pick class first, then roll stats, automatically granted the requirements set by the developers.

    If the game automatically gave you at least the minimal stat in all area's enforced/required by PnP, the original developers may of thought characters would be overpowered. I however think the minimal requirements should be fixed for all classes, even for non-primary attributes, this would prevent min/maxing, which I don't care for.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I'll check this later in the beta to see if its still an issue.

    But if the pure Illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16 in BGEE, multi-class gnome Illusionists should also have that minimum.
    Milochmoody_mageTurinDragonspear
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    If you will be fixing this, will you also update Quayle to 16 dexterity?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Mungri

    Nope, for the same reason why we won't touch the illegal stats of Minsc, Coran and Kagain. Once NPCs are in the wild, minimum/maximum allowances for classes no longer apply.
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
    edited November 2012
    Why can't illegal stats be changed? I didn't quite understand the reason.
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,643
    Mungri said:

    If you will be fixing this, will you also update Quayle to 16 dexterity?

    You can always hack him to a 16 dex if you want.
    Quartz
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited November 2012
    @Balquo

    My reasoning for not changing illegal stats of NPCs is that when you encounter them, they're more or less experienced adventurers:

    - A CHARNAME Ranger that loses Wisdom during their journey doesn't stop from being a Ranger, same with Minsc and his blows to the head.

    - Perhaps Coran and Kagain got themselves some stat tomes to reach their illegal stats.

    - Quayle just sucks.
    jolly_bbDragonspear
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
    Aye, that is a good point.
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    "Illegal" maximum stats should not be changed. Reason being, there's no "maximum" you need to be any particular class, and there are ways of enhancing stats as mentioned, as well as exceptional individuals.

    On the other hand, there *are* minimum stat requirements you need to be a certain class. Quayle sucking is just another reason to correct that.
    moody_mageQuartz
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    Minsc's illegal scores make sense for his character concept, which is not that of the archetypical ranger.

    Does Quayle's character concept justify a lower Dexterity score than the minimum required for gnome illusionists?
    Quartz
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I assume that he's a lazy ass Gnome and that affected his physical stats.
    Antonjolly_bb
  • TurinTurin Member Posts: 42
    Tanthalas said:

    But if the pure Illusionist has a minimum Dexterity of 16 in BGEE, multi-class gnome Illusionists should also have that minimum.

    Yes, what @Tanthalas said. I have no opinion on whether Quayle should be changed, but a newly created PC illusionist should have a minimum Dex of 16, regardless of whether they are single class or multiclass, gnome or some other race. In BG2 this is not the case: gnome multiclass illusionists have a lower minimum Dexterity than other illusionists.
    AndreaColombo
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    It just occurred to me how bad @ss a Thief/Illusionist is ...
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    edited November 2012
    Tanthalas said:

    I assume that he's a lazy ass Gnome and that affected his physical stats.

    I hardly think it's a question of laziness but one of agility in the case of learning the illusionist school. His wisdom is poor enough for a good cleric (10) but it meets the minimum requirement, which is a 9, i.e. average. His dexterity would need a single point increase to meet the minimum for an illusionist (15 -> 16).

    And what's all this talk of "illegal" high stats? There's no such thing. A dwarf fighter with 20 constitution is not "illegal" i.e. - he can still quite "legally" be a fighter. That's like saying as soon as my half-orc fighter with 19 constitution gets his greedy paws on the tome of constitution and somehow reads it (which could be tough since he's probably technically illiterate with a negligible INT) then he automatically becomes an "illegal" fighter.
    AndreaColombo
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
    Is Quayle the only NPC to suffer from incorrect minimum stats?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Miloch

    Technically Quayle could also have lost a point a dexterity somehow, just like what happened to Minsc's wisdom.

    @Balquo

    Minsc's wisdom is also far too low for a Ranger.
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    Minsc should really have been a berserker - I don't know why they had to make him a ranger. As for Quayle, I think it was just sloppiness in checking that the character meets the class requirements. That and an apparent racial hatred of gnomes on the part of the devs - they got the worst stats and no one bothered even giving them their own animation. Not to mention your female gnome cleric will look like a male dwarf.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited November 2012
    To be fair, Berserkers didn't exist in BG1.

    Boo has always been what makes Minsc a Ranger for me.
    Dragonspear
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    Tanthalas said:

    Boo has always been what makes Minsc a Ranger for me.

    Rofl.
    Quartz
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Heh. I had a big thread on this issue. Turns out:

    In BG1 engine, the Minimum Dex requirement for multi-class Gnome Illusionists *IS* enforced, but in BGII engine, it is NOT. So yes, for BG:EE this will need to be fixed.

    And also yes Quayle needs the extra Dex point. It's quite obviously an oversight.
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    @Quartz - that doesn't surprise me. It's probably related the way they externalised class/race requirement tables, which also led to the BG2 bug in dual classing to a specialist mage.
    Quartz
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    @Quartz, Quayle lost dex point due to old age - he's just old&clumsy :) When his character was created, his dex was surely higher, but detoriorated! :)
    MilochYaeriusDragonspear
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    As his brain size increased due to his improving magical skills his balance suffered hence the lack of Dex.
    MilochDragonspear
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    @jolly_bb @decado
    You both get an "insightful" because I could not find the "unlike" button... :P
    moody_mage
  • ETBETB Member Posts: 7
    Tanthalas said:


    - Quayle just sucks.

    I think being fairly old is a better reason than sucking, even if the latter is also true.

    Has there been much discussion about changing stats for a number of BG1 NPCs to be more competitive with others? They certainly made NPCs more balanced all around in BG2.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @ETB

    There will be no changes to NPC stats except maybe Quayle.
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