Sui Generis-Kickstarter

Kristie83

Have any of you seen this on Kickstarter?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1473965863/sui-generis

I immediately wanted to start throwing cash at my screen. I have a feeling though, that my computer just can't take a game of this caliber. I would love to see this get made though, but they have a long way to go to reach their monetary goal and only 22 days to do it in...

Drugar

It looks nice it looks interesting, but I do get the feeling like this team has set the bar very high for itself (groundbreaking innovation, mindblowingly large world where everything is interconnected, realistic reactions by NPC's that are not scripted but always appropriate to the situation, etc) while I'm not seeing any credentials of them pulling anything like this off in the past.

If it ends up being what they want, it'll probably be quite good, but I'm getting a distinct feeling of "Let's make this sound superawesome to attract backers".

Kristie83

I think you might be right @Drugar. I don't think the story is there yet either, but I'm hoping that in time this will be awesome!

Lemernis

I wonder if they're on the right track with MMORPG versus just creating a CRPG. There seems to be recent resurgence of interest in CRPGs what with BG:EE (and a possible BG3) and Project Eternity.

The engine looks very cool, but still lacking any info on a possible setting and ruleset I can see why people would be wary yet about contributing.

Kristie83

It doesn't look like its going to be funded anyway. They only have £45,436 pledged of the £150,000 goal and only 16 days to go. What a shame

reedmilfam

It does look promising, but I'm very anti-KickStart, as I have so little faith that people correctly estimate costs (so they run out of money) or can finish (it's actually very hard to do the finishing touches on games for release, as many devs are learning). Project Eternity is an idea by pros who have gone through the process, so I'm a little more optimistic in that case.

As it's clear that the idea is maybe workable, we'll see if something along the Sui Generis idea becomes something in the future. It'd have to be CRPG for me, though - I have subzero interest in any form of MMO.

mlnevese

When I saw the 150k pounds target the first thing I thought was that it wouldn't even cover base costs, even less fund an entire game...

People are always underestimating costs in Kickstarter. Not very long agor a project went down because the money raised, even when they go above their goal.

This link may be an interesting read:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-21/kickstarter-s-funded-projects-see-some-stumbles

Just found another interesting one:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/176458/Chris_Crawford_reflects_on_a_Kickstarter_gone_wrong.php#.UKJ0SfOe8so

Kristie83

Those were interesting articles. My question though is, what happens to a kickstarter project that reaches its funding goal, but never gets finished/released? Are they obligated to refund the money? I'm not even sure that would be possible in most cases because by the time the creators realized that the project went belly-up, the money would be gone anyway...

mlnevese

@Kristie83 Here, read this:

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

and this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/119413-Kickstarter-Not-Built-for-Ouya-Failure


Basically Kickstarter is not responsible for anything that happens after you fund a project.

Kristie83

@mlnevese True, but from what I read, if the company can't deliver what was promised in your reward tier, then they are obligated to provide a refund. The thing is, is that if the money is already gone...then how do they refund what isn't there?

ginger_hammer

Dont they only charge you when the target is met? No reach no pay

Lemernis

I would expect that in the fine print of the agreement to donate, the supporter signs off on accepting that there is no refund if the project fails to meet it's financial target, or fails as a business, or what have you. I.e., the supporter is taking that risk by donating. But I'm not motivated enough to read the fine print to see if that is true. Although in perusing this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickstarter

one finds the following:

"There is no guarantee that people that post projects on Kickstarter will deliver on their projects, use the money to implement their projects, or that the completed projects will meet backers expectations, and Kickstarter itself has been accused of providing little quality control.[20][21][22] Kickstarter advises sponsors to use their own judgment on supporting a project. They also warn project leaders that they could be liable for legal damages from sponsors for failure to deliver on promises.[23] Projects can also fail even after a successful fund raise when creators underestimate the total costs required or technical difficulties to be overcome.[20][24]"

sebas

I'm sorry but I just don't see how a team of 5 people can achieve the goals they've set for themselves. This is a stretch to say the least.

Syntia13

sebas said:

I'm sorry but I just don't see how a team of 5 people can achieve the goals they've set for themselves. This is a stretch to say the least.

Well, I don't know. They always were a team of five people, and apparently they've already managed to build their own, very impressive game engine and model a world with it, and they did it in their free time, while maintaining normal day jobs. Just imagine what they can do with it if they can dedicate ALL their time to this baby. Call me an insane optimist, but I think this can result with something truly amazing.

mlnevese

The team of 5 doesn't even worry me that much, it would just take a very long time to complete the software with such a small team. The unrealistically low goal is more of a worry to me.

They'd have to hire a professional musician, record music in a professional studio, hire voice actors, record voice in a professional studio, hire more programmers and graphics artists to finish the game in a reasonable time. 150k pounds is clearly not enough.

mlnevese

@Kristie83

Kristie83 said:

Those were interesting articles. My question though is, what happens to a kickstarter project that reaches its funding goal, but never gets finished/released? Are they obligated to refund the money? I'm not even sure that would be possible in most cases because by the time the creators realized that the project went belly-up, the money would be gone anyway...

I know of at least one instance it happened, but I can't find the link right now. Basically some people sued, but the kickstarter was bankrupt and they received nothing back.

reedmilfam

mlnevese said:

@Kristie83

Kristie83 said:

Those were interesting articles. My question though is, what happens to a kickstarter project that reaches its funding goal, but never gets finished/released? Are they obligated to refund the money? I'm not even sure that would be possible in most cases because by the time the creators realized that the project went belly-up, the money would be gone anyway...

I know of at least one instance it happened, but I can't find the link right now. Basically some people sued, but the kickstarter was bankrupt and they received nothing back.

When you sue, you can lay claim to assets. If there are no assets, it gets more and more challenging and, honestly, costs more to prosecute (for the wronged party) than the amount pledged.

I'm with @mlnevese that the money requested by the KickStarter for Sui Generis is too low. Still, we don't know how far the £ 150K would go. Could it make a really good beta, which would open the door for more? I don't know.

The Sui Generis film looked interesting, but is more 'click at the right time' than most RPG's. I'm not a high speed clicking guy and don't want a game that makes me be that. I don't mind pseudo action (ME1), but the closer to COD, the less likely I will play it. I'm not a console gamer and don't go that route by choice.

Anyway, we'll see what happens to this one.

Kristie83

It would really suck to be a high-end backer and have a funded project fail. I really don't think this project is getting funded...Its still way under the halfway point and there is only like 15 days to go.

reedmilfam

There's nothing to really inspire investment in this. The description is a lot of generalities and, honestly, I'm not playing an RPG with no saving/loading. One mistake and you restart 100's of hours? Every single fight is likely to end you. There's a line between fun and realism, and this seems too far to the right. It's not an RPG, it's a Fantasy World Simulator.

Lemernis

reedmilfam said:

There's nothing to really inspire investment in this. The description is a lot of generalities and, honestly, I'm not playing an RPG with no saving/loading. One mistake and you restart 100's of hours? Every single fight is likely to end you. There's a line between fun and realism, and this seems too far to the right. It's not an RPG, it's a Fantasy World Simulator.

I believe they would have done better to use the engine they're developing to create a CRPG with an appealing setting, story, and ruleset. Even if presented just in very broad strokes. I think it's the absence of any vision for setting and story that doomed this enterprise in its current form.

swnmcmlxi

Very nice animations, indeed. But the fact that all five presentations of the team members lack the word 'writer' does make me pause.

reedmilfam

@Lemernis - that was essentially what I was thinking, but didn't write it as clearly (the it's not an RPG part). I was touching mostly on it being like a Sim (Falcon 4.0 anyone?) than an RPG. There's some good stuff in here that hopefully will turn into something one day, but it needs a story and something to make it worth playing.

How many start with the 'you're a stranger in a strange land' motif?

awin123

Love the idea, but I'm anti Kickstarter. If a game is good enough I have no problem buying at full price after release but I won't invest the development of something that has absolutely no guarantee of succeeding.

It's a catch 22 for gamers. Publishers won't fund fringe or special interest games because the big bucks are made from the yearly franchise releases like COD/BF/Halo, so why would they take a risk with a new IP like Sui Generis especially when new IP generally sells poorly.

At the same time, if people with ideas for new IP and clear dedication like the guys behind Sui Generis can't get funding to get their projects started and finished we will continue to see the same garbage released year after year because that's what sells.

Path of Exile did a good job of this and I gladly paid into the game because the money I spent got me a working copy of the beta game. The thing is, they didn't have a kickstarter in the typical sense, they're basically just selling access to the closed beta which I'm perfectly fine with. Not only am I helping the company fund their project going forward but I also got a working game and even if they develop the game no further, at least I got 50+ hours of fun out of the money I invested into their studio. There's a few kickstarters like this, and by a few I do mean a few, because it seems like most companies follow the whole "we'll make this game if you buy the kickerstarter" motto which just doesn't inspire me to contribute even if there's technical demos and videos of the engine, etc.

I really hope Sui Generis gets finished and it's a good game, and I'd have no problem buying it full price at that time.

Cyhort

Maybe the funding goal is low because that's all they needed? Maybe they've already spent money on the game and they just need that much to finish. That's what I've always thought for a lot of these indie Kickstarters anyway. Either way though, I'm pretty skeptical that they can actually pull that off. Seems kind of Molyneux-esqe to me.

reedmilfam

If they have a really good concept, I'd tell them to talk to Stardock , who seems more willing than most to take chances on decent ideas.

sebas

Cyhort said:

Maybe the funding goal is low because that's all they needed? Maybe they've already spent money on the game and they just need that much to finish.

If you take a look at their video, there's no way that's a project close to completion. It's basically a tech demo for the engine, not really a game.

awin123

sebas said:

Cyhort said:

Maybe the funding goal is low because that's all they needed? Maybe they've already spent money on the game and they just need that much to finish.

If you take a look at their video, there's no way that's a project close to completion. It's basically a tech demo for the engine, not really a game.

Exactly, the game lacks anything resembling an alpha much less a final product. That's essentially a game editor that someone could take, spend a few years working with and develop an exciting world/story/etc. As a technical achievement it's awesome, as a game, it's not even started.

With the small goal that they set out they are either looking at rushing an incomplete game, paying a lot out of their own pockets, or a project that will flop due to lack of funding. Making games is not cheap, especially when they are as ambitious as Sui Generis. Minecraft for example was a very simple game at heart, there was no story, no RPG elements, no advanced graphics, etc and there are plenty of games out there that follow the same baseline which can easily be completed by on a low budget with few people. The problem is, Sui Generis as an idea is not very simple, they are looking to have a lot of RPG elements, Advanced graphics/physics/lighting, an expansive story in a massive world, etc. and these things do not come cheap.

I really do hope for the best because I love the idea an I love the dedication they're putting behind it. I'm just not convinced that they can realistically pull it off.

Bytebrain

awin123 said:

sebas said:

Cyhort said:

Maybe the funding goal is low because that's all they needed? Maybe they've already spent money on the game and they just need that much to finish.

If you take a look at their video, there's no way that's a project close to completion. It's basically a tech demo for the engine, not really a game.

Exactly, the game lacks anything resembling an alpha much less a final product. That's essentially a game editor that someone could take, spend a few years working with and develop an exciting world/story/etc. As a technical achievement it's awesome, as a game, it's not even started.

With the small goal that they set out they are either looking at rushing an incomplete game, paying a lot out of their own pockets, or a project that will flop due to lack of funding. Making games is not cheap, especially when they are as ambitious as Sui Generis. Minecraft for example was a very simple game at heart, there was no story, no RPG elements, no advanced graphics, etc and there are plenty of games out there that follow the same baseline which can easily be completed by on a low budget with few people. The problem is, Sui Generis as an idea is not very simple, they are looking to have a lot of RPG elements, Advanced graphics/physics/lighting, an expansive story in a massive world, etc. and these things do not come cheap.

I really do hope for the best because I love the idea an I love the dedication they're putting behind it. I'm just not convinced that they can realistically pull it off.

Looking at the video and listening to the developer, it seems to me, that the engine, physics and lightning is already done.
He's showing how he can move and manipulate light sources, landscapes, water and weather on the fly in an almost finished engine.

There's no game in sight, that's true, but everything that needs to be there to make one seems to be in place...

reedmilfam

The point is more that a large, complex, and expensive part of the game development is essentially un-started at this juncture in the process.

Kristie83

There is a new update: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1473965863/sui-generis/posts/350465

They've hired a new writer. That's a positive thing, eh? I wonder if they're worried about not reaching their goal. I wonder if it will be possible for them to continue on if they don't.