Skip to content

Suggestion for BG2:EE: Xpcap for SoA

I've always felt that the last part of SoA is really too easy when playing with SoA+ToB.

This is mainly because we usually are a bit above 3,000,000xp (HLAs and 9th level spells) at the time of the fights against Irenicus, which was not the case in the classic game, with its 2,950,000xp cap.

An idea to make Irenicus a stronger mage than you are again, would be to bring back this xp cap, and removing it just after. The xp you gain would still be granted in the background, but disactivated until you retrieve your soul. Hence no balance issue at all for ToB. No headache for the developers.

I even think it makes some sense roleplay wise. Not having your soul should be limiting your potential, right?

There is the problem of Watcher's Keep, which can be made during SoA time. You would have to do it at a somewhat lower level than before. I personnally don't see it as a big issue. If you're stuck, wait until ToB to see what is lower down.
«13

Comments

  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    One thing that would have to be modified though are how the HLA selection is handled, since if you gain more than one point in one shot, you can't select more than once the same skill when you should be able to.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Not a big ToB fan here, but what you say does make sense.
    Not neccessarily a problem with reaching level 9 spells but HLA's could do with a serious overhaul.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    Plus SoA would be a bit more of a challenge for soloers with this feature on. :o
  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    If you play against Irenicus on the 'insane' difficulty setting and with SCS installed, that battle is perhaps the hardest in the game, even with characters greatly in excess of level 40. Irenicus gets a dragon and several other powerful minions. Those +5 weapons that seem so cool in other contexts can seem horribly inadequate.

    Even without the SCS mod, playing against Irenicus on the 'insane' difficulty level is still very difficult, even with advanced characters. If you want it to be more challenging, I would suggest first trying to play it on one of the harder difficulty settings that already exist.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    I'm not really a fan of xp caps myself. If anything I would prefer to boost the difficulty level of the endgame encounters like Irenicus, such as giving him a plentiful supply of HLAs. Or if you really want a punishing endgame, try tactics and SCSII - the most significant reason to why Irenicus isn't all that challenging is really that the vanilla AI plays mages very poorly.

    Still, as long as it's a cap that can be removed and not a hardcoded limit, I wouldn't mind very much.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    Currently, with no mod, for a given difficulty setting, I find Irenicus way easier than Sarevok or Melissane.

    Wasn't Sarevok fight made a bit harder when you installed TotSC?
  • RenulanRenulan Member Posts: 109
    Would be interesting if the system scaled to your level, or your average party level.

    Ex: If you were say level 35 fighting Irenicus (O.o what have you been doing? lol) Then Irenicus would be scaled sufficiently higher than you and with some comrades, etc.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    I find scaled encounters (when not justified) to ruin the "real world" feel of the games that are using it.
  • IlphalarIlphalar Member Posts: 68
    edited November 2012
    Djonne said:

    I find scaled encounters (when not justified) to ruin the "real world" feel of the games that are using it.

    That would bother me a lot, though in that case it does not seem a bad idea. Although I'm not sure whether I'd like to see Irenicus' casting all of these epic level spells. Maybe there should be some idea of disabling epic abilities during the final battle in hell?

    BTW I believe that Sarevok has been made much stronger with the release of TotSC (doesn't he get a haste effect?).
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    SoA is already scaled though. Depending on what level you are, a lot of encounters will be different.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    even on insane difficulty, irenicus is pitifully easy, but i have been playing this game since the beginning, im usually around 3.8 million xp the time i get there and i dont even do watchers keep in SoA, there was one guy on this forum who beat all of SoA and ToB ( up to mellisan) with just a level 7 party, i would love if in SoA the xp cap was 2.95 million and when you hit ToB the cap would go back up to 8 000 000, but then of coarse the bg1 cap has been increased and now bg II is going to be a big mess because of it, ah good stuff, being halariously low levels taking on big challenges in my book is much more fun than being halariously higher levels than you are supposed to be and just steam roll everything, but on the flip side some people love being 10 levels higher than need be, so it all comes down to play style preference i shappose
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Here's a suggestion if you want the game to be more challenging - turn the difficulty slider up!

    Nerfing the player in anyway just because you think something is too easy or powerful is a lazy work around, and all it would do is remove something from the game that lots of other players currently enjoy.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    but what happens when you are already up at max? cant go any higher than max, plus another problem is, for us veterans who have been playing this game so long is that we know everything about it, and its hard to keep this game challenging for us because we know every enemy's weakness
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    edited November 2012
    Use some difficulty-increasing mods. Tactics+SCSII is very challenging for most people, doubly so if you restrain from using cheesy methods. Add some mods on top of that that cut down the gold you gain, increase item costs and decrease exp rewards (Aurora's Shoes and Boots + Ding0's Experience Fixer) and you're making the game about as difficult as it can get without doing a total overhaul like Improved Anvil.

    In vanilla SoA, even if you make Irenicus level 50 and give him 1000 health and unlimited time stops and dragon breaths, he'll still be controlled by the vanilla AI, and there's only so much that it can do.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Also isn't the only reason for why the game feels so easy now especially to solo purely because you've played it lots of times? Take a completely new first time player and and they would be terrible at attempting a solo run without first learning everything about the game.
  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    edited November 2012
    The most recent time I fought Irenicus I had a party of three. Two of my party were 4th playthrough and one was in her second. The two 4th playthrough characters each had over 300 HP. Everyone had +5 weapons, except Viconia who had Crom Faeyre, and I had a Ring of Gaxx from each playthrough. The two 4th playthrough characters each had both the boots of speed and the cheetah amulets.

    I played on SCS with tactics and on the 'insane' difficulty level. It was an extremely difficult battle and my entire party was killed several times. It took many different revisions in strategies and was one of the most difficult battles I've ever fought. I eventually won, but the time when I won lasted for over an hour real time (not counting all the times I lost and had to reload). When I did win, I only barely did so. Viconia was killed, despite having 341 HP, an armor class of -13, and three regenerating items. My PC survived because he had 4 regenerating items and because I had him run around to get his health back up when he came within 20 HP of dying out of 312.

    "Easy" is most certainly not a word I would use to describe it.
    Post edited by ARKdeEREH on
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2012
    sarevok57 said:

    but what happens when you are already up at max? cant go any higher than max, plus another problem is, for us veterans who have been playing this game so long is that we know everything about it, and its hard to keep this game challenging for us because we know every enemy's weakness

    Then gimp yourself. Make a minimum stat character. Play it hardcore - 0 deaths allowed. If you die once you have to start again with a new charater. Minimum stats or whatever stats the game gives you the first time, no rerolls allowed on character generation.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    This suggestion is not aimed at increasing the difficulty setting.
    This suggestion is about making Irenicus an interesting fight, as are the ones against Sarevok and Melissane, and as was the one against Irenicus before ToB existed.
    It is a balance issue, not a difficulty issue, so please stop talking about Tactics/SCSII or anything completely anti-AD&D, you're completely missing the point, there, sorry.
    Did you guys even ever played SoA without ToB in the first place? SoA was balanced for you not to have access to memorized level 9 spells. Removing the cap has completely OP your party for the end game... :/
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Actually SCSII doesn't really implement anything anti-D&D. It's main component improves the AI, which is mostly notable when it comes to enemy mages, as the vanilla AI isn't very good at playing them effectively. Even the SCS AI won't play mages as well as a skilled human might, but the difference isn't as glaring anymore. So if you want to make Irenicus more capable of handling your party, you would do well to try it out.

    Sarevok can be more challenging because 1) The increase in player party power is exponential rather than linear up to level 20 or so, making a lot of early encounters difficult; and 2) Sarevok as a warrior type is unlike Irenicus very effective with a simple move-and-melee AI due to his good stats and high magic resistance.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    Improving AI is sure a good thing, but it will modify the difficulty level of the whole game, which is not - I think - what the developers want to do with BG2:EE, and not the point of this thread. :D

    With the cap AND better mage AI, you don't need to have to install tactics to have a good challenge when you're an expert, don't you see this as a good thing? :D
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Well, as I said I generally don't like xp caps and other imposed limits, but prefer to up the capacity of the enemies instead. This makes the SoA/ToB components feel less compartmentalized as well
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    I understand this, but I feel RP-wise, limiting your soulless bhaalspawn actually makes sense.
  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    edited November 2012
    Djonne said:

    This suggestion is not aimed at increasing the difficulty setting.
    This suggestion is about making Irenicus an interesting fight, as are the ones against Sarevok and Melissane, and as was the one against Irenicus before ToB existed.
    It is a balance issue, not a difficulty issue, so please stop talking about Tactics/SCSII or anything completely anti-AD&D, you're completely missing the point, there, sorry.
    Did you guys even ever played SoA without ToB in the first place? SoA was balanced for you not to have access to memorized level 9 spells. Removing the cap has completely OP your party for the end game... :/

    I played Shadows of Amn once before ToB, but I never finished it because I lost interest. As a result I never made it as far as the fight with Irenicus, so no I don't think I ever played it before ToB. I've played BG2 in its entirety many times after the release of ToB though and when I felt it was too easy I raised the difficulty level.

    If you want that particular battle to be harder, but don't want to change the rest of the game, I would suggest playing the rest of the game on one of the easier difficulty levels and then raising the difficulty scroll bar when you get to Irenicus. I used to do that sometimes before I installed SCS. Either that or just don't click the level-up button once you reach whichever point you've decided is the highest you want to go that game.

    I am strongly opposed to any kind of level cap since increasing my characters' power over the course of the game is one of the main things I find fun in Baldur's Gate. If I reach a level cap and can't circumvent it, I stop playing wherever I happen to be since to continue is inherently pointless as no matter what I do I won't be accomplishing anything.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    Having to change difficulty setting dynamically during the game clearly indicates there is a balance issue somewhere. At least to me.
    And I don't understand the fact that when you hit the cap you lose interest in the game.
    When you reach 161,000 in BG1, do you actually stop playing and don't kill Sarevok?
    Same here, even if xp is capped, item looting is still there and even increases in xp. It is just frozen up until you retrieve your soul.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2012
    RP wise it doesnt make any sense to suddenly stop gaining experience from new battles your character fights. The only purpose that XP caps serve is for game balance, and in single player games there doesnt need to be any kind of balance as long as the game is fun, challenging and keeps people intersted in playing it.

    Tell me, how many other RPGs as old as BG still have such a loyal fan following today? The reason why BG is still so popular is because it did everything right, including potential character power because seriously, becoming uberlicious and blasting through enemy mobs is extremely fun and enjoyable.

    The only reason why people today feel like nerfing anything they consider to be overpowered or unbalanced is purely a sickness inherited to playing too many vastly inferior modern RPGs / MMOs where due to some some silly reasons, everything and every player needs to be made 100% equal, and being able to solo a party based game should simply be impossible, because you know everyone that enjoys soloing games with just 1 character absolutely shouldnt be allowed to have fun after they've already completed the game many many times over, and feel like soloing it for the fun of it, /sarcasm.

    Stop asking for the single best RPG ever made to be nerfed to oblivion just because you dont like how other people can play the game. Me playing my game with a completely overpowered pwn everything in sight solo character does absolutely nothing to reduce your enjoyment of the same game, its SINGLE PLAYER!.
  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    edited November 2012
    I haven't played BG1 in a long time. I'm trying to hold off playing it until the new enhanced edition comes out, but I don't think I usually reached the level cap in BG1. When I did I would just import directly into BG2 from there and skip the rest of the 1st game.

    In BG2 I reach the level cap all the time, especially if I have a small party. Some games I've quit half-way through. More recently I've been using Shadowkeeper to re-set my characters' XP and level to zero and one, respectively so that I can continue to advance. This workaround isn't perfect though since level-based spells like Magic Missile and Energy Blades don't really work anymore if the game thinks the characters are level ones. It's a viable option when I'm playing with a party since everyone won't reach the cap at the same time, but if I'm playing solo it makes difficult encounters such as Irenicus and Watcher's Keep almost impossible since my spells and saving throws won't work the way they're supposed to for a while. I eventually quit my main solo game because of that. I was in Watcher's keep and my cleric PC went from a functional level 39 to a temporarily okay level 1 with the HP and proficiencies of a level 40, but not the spells that go with it.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    I actually unlocked the XP cap up to 10 million with revised level progression allowing all classes to reach level 50, including uncapped XP for multiclasses ....

    Yea, I like playing absurdly uber overleveled characters and blasting through everything, its awesome fun.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    Actually, I am asking for the opposite of a nerf of the game there.

    And I'm even asking for something that already existed.
    For SoA.
    The part of BG2 that almost everybody agree is far superior to the other, ToB, which kind of reduced the interest of SoA because it caused imbalance to it due to the removal of the xp cap.
    Cap exists in BG1, and it is even less understandable there, since you're not lacking part of your essence.
    I find it ridiculous to be able to have a mage far more powerful than Irenicus, who in the various sequence is shown to be an extremely powerful mage. Give him improved alacrity, at least...

    And for the fact that you lose interest when not seeing your xp increasing, I'm sorry but I don't think you represent the majority of players there. :D
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Djonne said:

    Having to change difficulty setting dynamically during the game clearly indicates there is a balance issue somewhere. At least to me.
    And I don't understand the fact that when you hit the cap you lose interest in the game.
    When you reach 161,000 in BG1, do you actually stop playing and don't kill Sarevok?
    Same here, even if xp is capped, item looting is still there and even increases in xp. It is just frozen up until you retrieve your soul.

    I usually remove the xp cap altogether as I don't feel it makes sense in BG1 either, and since that game is pretty much soft-capped in exp anyway with the relatively low gains. So I wouldn't exactly mind the kind of cap you're proposing, as long as it's moddable so people can get rid of it. But, it would seem closer at hand for you to use a mod to this effect than to have the cap imposed on everyone.
  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    Sure everything is moddable, no question about this.

    Lets put it this way: for un unmodded game, which solution is the best in term of general balance of the game for a newcomer to BG saga? I say with the cap on, since I find the SoA part of classic game way more interestingly balanced than the SoA part of SoA+ToB.
Sign In or Register to comment.