Which game is better combat-wise BG2 or IWD?

Jirayia2

I played both and how I feel it:

- There was a strange delay in IWD (especially during spells, even for several seconds)
- In BG2 on the other hand feels like characters physics were cut down to make it faster and easier, resulting in easier game.
- Why premade teams are so OP in BG2, I literally blow everything with a Barbarian before rest of my team gets there, this must be patched really quick.

Though the same engine, I think IWD measures Class' potential better than BG and have hordes of mobs. So if someone makes a guide about Solo run potential, he should check both games because some classes might work different in each game. What do You think?

Lord_Tansheron

There are many factors to consider. IWD is certainly more combat-driven, while BG2 has more character interaction (read: any). However, IWD's combat is also focused on a particular mode, namely hordes of physical attackers. BG2, on the other hand, has a lot of magic-based battles which many people find more difficult even if though it's only 1 enemy vs. the 20 you'd be facing in IWD.

As for being powerful with certain setups, that is to be expected. The game is not tuned per se for experienced players that know exactly what they are doing. It's almost too easy to break the unmodded game.

HOWEVER

IWD has one big, huge, monstrous, TITANIC disadvantage in terms of difficulty: it has no SCS mod. That mod is the bread and butter of BG difficulty, and to many seasoned players is an absolute requirement for any kind of enjoyable combat. IWD is absolutely trivial to beat even on Heart of Winter for expert players, while BG2 with SCS on Legacy of Bhaal mode is still a challenge. Doubly so with other mods that IWD also does not sport, such as IR/SR.

For me, I played through IWD on HoW two and a half times, and then got bored and never played it again. It was just too easy. With BG2 SCS LoB I am still enjoying it. A lot.

Ygramul

Simple answer really:

BG2 has SCS; IWD does not.

Therefore, BG2 has better combat.


(IWD would potentially have better combat, *IF* it had a similar AI mod, due to arguably better design. Alas, it doesn't.)

JuliusBorisov

http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27035&page=23#entry251461

Lord_Tansheron

There's "some chance" of just about ANYTHING :P

I'll believe it when I see it.

Jirayia2

I see, mods play a huge role in this, I only have Vanilla versions but for me they're still quite a challenge but Im still noob. I guess those mods are for multiplayer with 6 real teammates.

dunbar

@JuliusBorisov Thanks for reminding of that link for SCS. I've tried to install it several times before but always got error messages. However as I've recently uninstalled/reinstalled my BGs in a different location I thought I'd give it another go - and it worked!
So I've just started my first ever SCS play through and, also for the first time ever, been killed by Shank - fun times ahead!

DrakeICN

The first few chapters of IWD2. Minibosses combined with pre-scripted enemy strategic attacks utilized the infinity engine to the max.

Really, two games that should be carefully studied by game designers are Myth II and RedSteel 2. Another game that should be studied is SiN Episodes. It is not very balanced combatwise and do not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Myth II and RedSteel 2, however, the difficulty adjusting to player skill in real time is a very interesting concept.

Abi_Dalzim

Maybe I'm some sort of Luddite, but "BG2 is better because it's been modded" sounds specious to me, no matter how prominent/popular the mod. It wasn't designed as the challenging tactical game, that was, in fact, Icewind Dale.

ThacoBell

It really depends on the player. I found the endless mob fights of IWD to get tedious after a couple chapters, while I found the more powerful smaller groups of BG2 more interesting for most of the game.

DavidW

Lord_Tansheron said:

There's "some chance" of just about ANYTHING :P

I'll believe it when I see it.

Wise.

Lord_Tansheron

Abi_Dalzim said:

Maybe I'm some sort of Luddite, but "BG2 is better because it's been modded" sounds specious to me, no matter how prominent/popular the mod. It wasn't designed as the challenging tactical game, that was, in fact, Icewind Dale.

While that may be true, I don't really see the relevance. Mods exist for the express purpose of making the game into what YOU want, regardless of what was "intended" by the designers. Their word is not law, their decisions are not gospel. They're not infallible by a long shot. In fact, they probably made it a point to design the game in ways that appealed to a particularly broad demographic - and willingly accepted the consequence of it falling short in places for very small, very specific parts of that demographic. That is not unreasonable design, giving you are trying to please a heterogeneous player base. However, mods give us the tool to narrow in on specific players, and customize the game in ways that appeal to them specifically - even if that means it would not appeal to a lot of other players. And that's fine, because those players don't actually get affected by this, since it's a personal modding decision rather than a global design choice. As such, we should not be troubled too much with original design "intent" but rather focus each specific configuration into best matching the expectations and desires of the specific sub-demographic it was crafted for. That such considerable effort cannot be expected from a commercial design team intent on selling a lot of copies is completely reasonable. That's what community efforts are for. And that's a good thing.

tbone1

Deleted, I misread. Man, I really need to get my medication adjusted.

Mantis37

There are quite well advanced plans to incorporate IWD into the EET mod, which may allow SCS to modify some of its content...?

Lord_Tansheron

Should IWD get an AI overhaul, it'll be a different discussion. But as before: I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

Pokota

The reason IWD isn't as heavily modded is simple - there's just more interest in modding the Baldur's Gate series.

In the absence of mods (which is how I usually play), IWD is better for combat, and BG is better for roleplay.

In the presence of mods, BG is better simply because there's more that's been done.

Jirayia2

Abi_Dalzim said:

Maybe I'm some sort of Luddite, but "BG2 is better because it's been modded" sounds specious to me, no matter how prominent/popular the mod. It wasn't designed as the challenging tactical game, that was, in fact, Icewind Dale.

Yes, it sounds like BG2 need mods to be hard at all, and I meant Vanilla or EE version without any mods. And It's not about hardness, it's about combat. Mods, or some SCS I believe they dont affect the physics of IE engine, which was im pretty sure a bit cut down because you can feel it after few fights compared to IWD.

It's like comparing stock Porsche to heavy-modded with different engine Mini Van and claiming that Mini Vans are faster than Porsche. No, it doesn't work that way ;p

tbone1

Jirayia2 said:

It's like comparing stock Porsche to heavy-modded with different engine Mini Van and claiming that Mini Vans are faster than Porsche. No, it doesn't work that way ;p

I could not read this without hearing Jeremy Clarkson say "if this mod were a van, it would be a Bugatti! The fastest delivery van ... in the wuuuurld." Thanks for a much-needed laugh.

DrakeICN

Lord_Tansheron said:

Abi_Dalzim said:

Maybe I'm some sort of Luddite, but "BG2 is better because it's been modded" sounds specious to me, no matter how prominent/popular the mod. It wasn't designed as the challenging tactical game, that was, in fact, Icewind Dale.

While that may be true ... we should not be troubled too much with original design "intent"

On top of that, if game devs are like any other team in existance, intent is a fickle thing indeed. The final outcome is the result of blood, sweat and tears, of strong wills headbutting for dominance, of a head dev with final say that everyone publicly agree with but secretly oppose and of course a disappointing compromise with financial constraints and looming deadlines.

Abi_Dalzim

DrakeICN said:

On top of that, if game devs are like any other team in existance, intent is a fickle thing indeed. The final outcome is the result of blood, sweat and tears, of strong wills headbutting for dominance, of a head dev with final say that everyone publicly agree with but secretly oppose and of course a disappointing compromise with financial constraints and looming deadlines.

Forgive my bluntness, but so what? Are you implying that you think Icewind Dale was intended to be as heavy on roleplay as Baldur's Gate, with custom NPC's and alignment counting for something and actions that affect the reputation meter? Or that vanilla Baldrur's Gate would have been as intense as IWD if there hadn't been deadlines looming? I don't see any evidence for either of those. At least the broad contours of the games were finished, and the balance of flavor versus combat is a part of that larger vision that we have no reason to think wasn't left intact.

Lord_Tansheron

Abi_Dalzim said:

Forgive my bluntness, but so what? Are you implying that you think Icewind Dale was intended to be as heavy on roleplay as Baldur's Gate, with custom NPC's and alignment counting for something and actions that affect the reputation meter? Or that vanilla Baldrur's Gate would have been as intense as IWD if there hadn't been deadlines looming? I don't see any evidence for either of those. At least the broad contours of the games were finished, and the balance of flavor versus combat is a part of that larger vision that we have no reason to think wasn't left intact.

What they mean is that because we don't know all the things that went into design that were decisions outside of actual gameplay (be they politics, finance, or whatever) it makes little sense to take intent as the basis for evaluation when it comes to games that are easily modded. We don't KNOW the intent for almost anything, we only know what came out in the end. That is very often a compromise rather than focused intent. Intent is just not a good basis for argument unless it's a game involving actual competition (in which case balance can be seen as the intent, and it's important that be preserved). Obviously doesn't apply here.

DrakeICN

Abi_Dalzim said:

DrakeICN said:

On top of that, if game devs are like any other team in existance, intent is a fickle thing indeed. The final outcome is the result of blood, sweat and tears, of strong wills headbutting for dominance, of a head dev with final say that everyone publicly agree with but secretly oppose and of course a disappointing compromise with financial constraints and looming deadlines.

Forgive my bluntness, but so what? Are you implying that you think Icewind Dale was intended to be as heavy on roleplay as Baldur's Gate, with custom NPC's and alignment counting for something and actions that affect the reputation meter? Or that vanilla Baldrur's Gate would have been as intense as IWD if there hadn't been deadlines looming? I don't see any evidence for either of those. At least the broad contours of the games were finished, and the balance of flavor versus combat is a part of that larger vision that we have no reason to think wasn't left intact.

Yes, most certainly am I implying that. Well, obviously, IWD was supposed to be more battleheavy than BG, but if they had had more time and money for both games, the battles in BG would be more intense, and the world of IWD would be more alive.

Abi_Dalzim

DrakeICN said:

Yes, most certainly am I implying that. Well, obviously, IWD was supposed to be more battleheavy than BG, but if they had had more time and money for both games, the battles in BG would be more intense, and the world of IWD would be more alive.

Buying into that supposition (and it's just that without actual evidence behind it) only reframes the intent argument, rather than refuting it. Instead, it becomes a question of what aspects of gameplay received emphasis when they couldn't fine-tune everything. In that case, we still wound up with Icewind Dale as the more combat-oriented game.