Can't remember enough of BG to remember Kivan and Minsc just does my head in these days. Valygar is pretty awesome character plus he has some good NPC banter going on.
Yeah Valygar is one of my favorites, he always seems have a spot in my party in BG2. He just does his thing, quietly kicking ass. I have been tempted to make a Stalker for the player character, but I just like Valygar too much for that. Plus, his unique personal gear is pretty damn useful and would be hard to improve upon with a PC stalker.
Kivan I picked up a few times, but I don't remember him being as versatile as Minsc.
I'm pretty sure statistically 17 Dex, 18/12 Strength, 14 Con is more versatile than Minsc's 18/93 Strength, 15 Dex, 15 Con. Minsc is a melee machine, but loves to get hit. Kivan is a ranged beast, but can also hold his own in melee, and doesn't get hit all the time.
I just ain't buyin' it dude, sorry. I've played with both enough to know.
Stats, schmats. Does Kivan go for the eyes? Honestly, they are both rangers, and about equally versatile by class. They're bonuses about equal out. Minsc has the berserker ability, but I rarely used it. It's more a question of play style.
I actually never really knew about Kivan for a very long time. I was pretty young when I first played so I was always a canon party kind of guy. But once I found Kivan he became my favorite character.
@Quartz: : ) you'd think, with his obviously superior 17 DEX, he would, but alas, Kivan lacks the versatility of Minsc's...somewhat simpler perspective. Or, as Minsc might say, "Kivan kicks butt for goodness. But he misses the forest for the butt!" "Squee!" "What, Boo? Oh. And Boo says he should try some anti depressant herbs!"
Kivan lacks the versatility of Minsc's...somewhat simpler perspective.
As amusing as your post is, I think you need to look up the definition of "versatile." Simpler perspective =/= versatile. Simpler perspective implies less options (in this case, Minsc owns at melee), versatile implies more options.
Minsc - Strength - 18/93 Melee : +2 THAC0, +5 Damage Dexterity - 15 AC: -1 Ranged: +0 THAC0 Constitution - 15 +1 HP/level Hide in Shadows No bonus or penalty for Dexterity. No bonus or penalty for being Human.
Kivan - Strength - 18/12 Melee : +1 THAC0, +3 Damage +1 THAC0 with Long Swords Dexterity - 17 AC: -3 Ranged: +2 THAC0 +1 THAC0 with Bows Constitution - 14 +0 HP/level Hide in Shadows +5% bonus for Dexterity. +10% bonus for being Elven.
Now before you think I'm some kind of stat nazi and pick favorites purely off stats ... no. I play weak characters all the time, it's that simple. But you called Minsc more versatile, so I had to bring these out to prove you wrong.
Minsc is cool and definitely has his uses (he hits harder than any other NPC in melee!), but calling him more versatile than Kivan is straight up wrong. Use a different word, "versatile" isn't it.
I tend to agree with @Quartz here --at least, stat for stat, Minsc's only really advantage is a whopping +2 melee damage.
On the other hand, Minsc's proficiencies depend on when you pick him up. At level ~2, he only has profs in melee weapons. At level ~4, he's got two pips in bows. In most games, this means that by the time you find him, Minsc is a good candidate to fill either a melee tanking roll or a ranged role.
Kivan, by contrast, only has profs in 2 handed weapons (spears and bows). This makes him less attractive as a main tank or even backup tank, since he can't use weapons like Greywolf's longsword or Spider's Bane right off the bat. If the player wants him to do that as well as Minsc can, they would need to pick him up early and get him to level six.
@Quartz: your tone is becoming condescending...Or its getting late, and this is the internet. I know well what the word means. Stats don't tell the story, but you keep posting stats. How many times is an intelligent person blind to a simple answer? Like going for the eyes! How many times has a less capable hero won the day by virtue of such action? Versatility is not breadth of knowledge or skill alone, but the ability to see it. Think of Gandalf, at the door of Moria. Luke Skywalker hitting the rancor gate with a skull. Versatility in action. When I played BG, Kivan didn't seem as versatile to me. I don't know why. You seem to think that his 17 Dex, and being an elf, somehow "proves" this wrong. But it is all in how you play it. Sure, he's got infravision, +1 with bow and sword, etc. And pointy ears, the chicks love that. It's kind of emo, or something. I know what you mean. Kivan has greater statistical potential. But does he go for the eyes? That's how battles are won. Which NPC ranger is best is a subjective question. Which has the quicker ability to see the forest for the trees is not tied to stats. It took Gandalf hours to get that door open. Of course, Kivan, being an elf, would've had it much quicker. Minsc, if he somehow translated it, would have returned to town, thinking he needed a melon to get in. *facepalm* So both the simple, and complex, perspective is a double edged sword. In life, I'd wager the simple slightly ahead. You also left out the Berserker rage, a versatility of Minsc best used with caution. And, he can throw axes to great effect. I'm not really seeing one character as particularly more versatile than the other, but....it's fairly subjective at this point.
That said, it's pretty clear to me now that you're 100% a role-player who gives zero cares about stats. Which is fine, because you enjoy the game and that's cool. But we aren't on the same page then, so I will leave you to your devices.
I take back my "godawful reason" statement. Minsc is probably the only super-popular NPC who is picked up for a good reason, now that I think about it. People like his personality.
Imoen. Why does everyone pick her up? Good stats. Edwin. Why does everyone pick him up? Good abilities. Viconia. Why does everyone pick her up? Good stats. Minsc. Why does everyone pick him up? He's "funny."
So I take back my statement. I don't understand how he's funny, but at least people pick him up 'cuz of that, instead of "lololol he is da best!!1"
You're an emo twat quartz, embrace the butt kicking for goodness!
I'm in the minority here but I really liked Valygar. I don't know much of Kivan because I've mostly played Baldur's Gate 2 as opposed to the first (hoping this edition will get me into the first more with it's updated gameplay and what not) and the whole Minsc/Boo thing, while funny, does get old.
I usually make Minsc a 'full plate and packing steel' character. I think lot of BG gamers do. Kivan fits the true ranger roll much more naturally, him being the perfect character to give him the Archer kit, thus making studded leather the best he can wear and him being a scout a viable option with him still dealing damage the way he does best. Minsc's best way of dealing damage is a two-handed sword in BG1 or either a two-hander or dual-wielding melee weapons in BG2, thus he is given plate and can't scout.
Though I'd like to be put wrong: anyone keeping Minsc in leather and have him scout?
It's has been done more often in BG2, when he finally gets to use dragon armor.
@Quartz: your tone is becoming condescending...Or its getting late, and this is the internet. I know well what the word means. Stats don't tell the story, but you keep posting stats. How many times is an intelligent person blind to a simple answer? Like going for the eyes! How many times has a less capable hero won the day by virtue of such action? Versatility is not breadth of knowledge or skill alone, but the ability to see it. Think of Gandalf, at the door of Moria. Luke Skywalker hitting the rancor gate with a skull. Versatility in action. When I played BG, Kivan didn't seem as versatile to me. I don't know why. You seem to think that his 17 Dex, and being an elf, somehow "proves" this wrong. But it is all in how you play it. Sure, he's got infravision, +1 with bow and sword, etc. And pointy ears, the chicks love that. It's kind of emo, or something. I know what you mean. Kivan has greater statistical potential. But does he go for the eyes? That's how battles are won. Which NPC ranger is best is a subjective question. Which has the quicker ability to see the forest for the trees is not tied to stats. It took Gandalf hours to get that door open. Of course, Kivan, being an elf, would've had it much quicker. Minsc, if he somehow translated it, would have returned to town, thinking he needed a melon to get in. *facepalm* So both the simple, and complex, perspective is a double edged sword. In life, I'd wager the simple slightly ahead. You also left out the Berserker rage, a versatility of Minsc best used with caution. And, he can throw axes to great effect. I'm not really seeing one character as particularly more versatile than the other, but....it's fairly subjective at this point.
The NPCs in the game don't play themselves. You're the one giving them instructions. Just because you're not effective in making Kivan as versatile as Minsc doesn't mean Kivan is actually less versatile than Minsc. It just means you, the player, isn't versatile.
Comments
Honestly, they are both rangers, and about equally versatile by class. They're bonuses about equal out. Minsc has the berserker ability, but I rarely used it. It's more a question of play style.
Minsc -
Strength - 18/93
Melee : +2 THAC0, +5 Damage
Dexterity - 15
AC: -1
Ranged: +0 THAC0
Constitution - 15
+1 HP/level
Hide in Shadows
No bonus or penalty for Dexterity.
No bonus or penalty for being Human.
Kivan -
Strength - 18/12
Melee : +1 THAC0, +3 Damage
+1 THAC0 with Long Swords
Dexterity - 17
AC: -3
Ranged: +2 THAC0
+1 THAC0 with Bows
Constitution - 14
+0 HP/level
Hide in Shadows
+5% bonus for Dexterity.
+10% bonus for being Elven.
Now before you think I'm some kind of stat nazi and pick favorites purely off stats ... no. I play weak characters all the time, it's that simple. But you called Minsc more versatile, so I had to bring these out to prove you wrong.
Minsc is cool and definitely has his uses (he hits harder than any other NPC in melee!), but calling him more versatile than Kivan is straight up wrong. Use a different word, "versatile" isn't it.
Btw your post was pretty amusing, well played.
On the other hand, Minsc's proficiencies depend on when you pick him up. At level ~2, he only has profs in melee weapons. At level ~4, he's got two pips in bows. In most games, this means that by the time you find him, Minsc is a good candidate to fill either a melee tanking roll or a ranged role.
Kivan, by contrast, only has profs in 2 handed weapons (spears and bows). This makes him less attractive as a main tank or even backup tank, since he can't use weapons like Greywolf's longsword or Spider's Bane right off the bat. If the player wants him to do that as well as Minsc can, they would need to pick him up early and get him to level six.
When I played BG, Kivan didn't seem as versatile to me. I don't know why. You seem to think that his 17 Dex, and being an elf, somehow "proves" this wrong. But it is all in how you play it. Sure, he's got infravision, +1 with bow and sword, etc. And pointy ears, the chicks love that. It's kind of emo, or something.
I know what you mean. Kivan has greater statistical potential. But does he go for the eyes? That's how battles are won. Which NPC ranger is best is a subjective question. Which has the quicker ability to see the forest for the trees is not tied to stats. It took Gandalf hours to get that door open.
Of course, Kivan, being an elf, would've had it much quicker.
Minsc, if he somehow translated it, would have returned to town, thinking he needed a melon to get in. *facepalm*
So both the simple, and complex, perspective is a double edged sword. In life, I'd wager the simple slightly ahead.
You also left out the Berserker rage, a versatility of Minsc best used with caution. And, he can throw axes to great effect. I'm not really seeing one character as particularly more versatile than the other, but....it's fairly subjective at this point.
That said, it's pretty clear to me now that you're 100% a role-player who gives zero cares about stats. Which is fine, because you enjoy the game and that's cool. But we aren't on the same page then, so I will leave you to your devices.
The NPCs in the game don't play themselves. You're the one giving them instructions. Just because you're not effective in making Kivan as versatile as Minsc doesn't mean Kivan is actually less versatile than Minsc. It just means you, the player, isn't versatile.