BG:EE Evil Party Discussion... Part 4,372 (Spoilers)

Melicamp

So this conversation has been done to death, but...

I can't seem to get very far with an evil party because I'm never satisfied with my build. I think most would agree the following folks are all amazing in an evil group.

Shar-Teel (Dualed to a Thief, she can hit 7/8 and is a beast)
Kagain (Ultimate Tank)
Dorn (19 Strength, Poison Weapon, Blackguard Ridiculousness)
Edwin (Mage with Bonus Spells)
Baeloth (Mage with Bonus Spells + Magic Resistance)

So... What I tend to do is play a Fighter/Cleric as a PC and tear it up. However, I don't feel that a F/C would be as fun as a character to import across SoD and BG2 as say, a Berserker or other fighter type, later dual-classed to a cleric. Problem is, you need a cleric in BG1... Well you don't NEED but... A balanced party has one.

So I'm thinking Xzar, kill Monty, Dual to a cleric... But then wait. I want to give the Wisdom tomes to the PC, throw that idea out.

So the only option remains... play my PC as the fighter type I want to, and ditch one of the NPCs above. Take in Viconia, give her Gauntlets of Ogre Power... she's not *the best* but she'll do.

So here's the problem. Who the heck do I drop? I could go to one mage (Edwin or Baeloth gets the boot) but then I lose some magical firepower. I could ditch Kagain, but he's a serious meat shield and the only shield user in the group as well.

What's your thoughts?

Melicamp

I guess if I do ditch Kagain, I could give the Gauntlets of Dex to Dorn, which will improve his AC by a couple and make him a bit more formidable. I forgot that shield usage will be picked up by Viconia, so those items aren't wasted... but still. Just feels wrong to ditch the greedy little guy. lol.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Bigfish

I'd just go with the F/C myself. Berserker gets boring after level 7, and if you plan to go through SoD with them it's even worse. Otherwise, both Kagain and Dorn are overkill with a Berserker Charname. If his purpose is to primarily do melee damage, you don't need Dorn, and if you want him to take hits, drop Kagain.

Papa_Lou

If I were you, I'd drop Edwin or Baeloth. Probably Baeloth, but that's just because I prefer regular mages over sorcerers.

My vote goes for one of the two spellcasters because BG1 doesn't really need to kind of magical power that BG2 does. One mage can handle everything you'd need throughout the first game, whereas BG2 puts a little more emphasis on spellcasting.

Gallenger

Yeah unfortunately I'd go for dropping kagain too if you're already a melee type - I tend to find BG1 gets a little clunky feeling if you've got 3 melee types (and maybe a 4th if you're using Shar-teel as a back stabber). If you want continuity between BG1-SoD-BG2 as well, may as well drop Kagain since he never appears again.

You also spend quite a while waiting for Baeloth, so you'll have Viccy in the party before then anyhow.

Melicamp

I'll probably go F/C as @Bigfish suggested. I had been mulling it anyway. Looking at it full 3 games, yeah you'll lose some weapon pips, berserk, and some other mechanics from the Dual-Class, but a F/C all the way through is way more useful to the party, fun, and still a powerhouse. Especially with the bonus +1 Strength / +1 Con if you go Half-Orc. Besides, you get Korgan as a Berserker in 2 anyway.

HaHaCharade

Melicamp said:

I'll probably go F/C as @Bigfish suggested. I had been mulling it anyway. Looking at it full 3 games, yeah you'll lose some weapon pips, berserk, and some other mechanics from the Dual-Class, but a F/C all the way through is way more useful to the party, fun, and still a powerhouse. Especially with the bonus +1 Strength / +1 Con if you go Half-Orc. Besides, you get Korgan as a Berserker in 2 anyway.

I agree my friend. Plus BG1 is the best game anyway. Might as well have the most fun in it

OrlonKronsteen

Hmmm... Looks like you've got your mind made up but personally I'd replace Dorn with Viconia and go with a blackguard or berserker for charname. Viconia is phenomenal in BG1. Charm resistance and magic resistance comes in really handy. She can tank really effectively in BG1, or you can keep her at the back with a sling and her spells which, as a single-classed cleric, she'll have more of. The healing spells are really handy but also hold person, silence, etc... In any case, have fun!

Jirayia2

Maybe just create 6 new evil characters with classes you want?

tbone1

No, Tiax requires you follow him! Bow down that Tiax can smite your abdomen!

HaHaCharade

OrlonKronsteen said:

...or you can keep her at the back with a sling and her spells which, as a single-classed cleric, she'll have more of.

Viconia can hit 8th level cleric, and thus gains 1 extra 3rd level, and 1 extra 4th level clerical spell, over that of a F/C which can only hit 7th level cleric.

This said, you can start your F/C with a higher wisdom (2 points higher) than Viconia (18 vs. 16). If you do this, and use tomes, you'll end up with more clerical spells from your PC's wisdom bonus than she gains from being a single class.

She is a good tank, I agree with you there. I personally would rather have someone tank though who can dish it out *and* take it

Melicamp

Jirayia2 said:

Maybe just create 6 new evil characters with classes you want?

I'd play Icewind Dale in that case Trying to make the best of a party with what's available.

OrlonKronsteen

HaHaCharade said:

She is a good tank, I agree with you there. I personally would rather have someone tank though who can dish it out *and* take it

No doubt fighter/clerics are great, and when I play good I often use Yeslick at some point or roll my own f/c multi. You make a good point about wisdom bonus and spells, too. One thing, though, you get 2nd and 3rd level spells faster with a pure class cleric, and that can be a huge boon at lower levels. Also, I love Viconia as a character for RP reasons, so I'm biased there. As for charname, I usually prefer to play a single class warrior type than a multi, so I have that bias, too.

Edit - P.S. You have a great username, @HaHaCharade, and portrait - Animals is a classic, classic album.

HaHaCharade

OrlonKronsteen said:

HaHaCharade said:

She is a good tank, I agree with you there. I personally would rather have someone tank though who can dish it out *and* take it

No doubt fighter/clerics are great, and when I play good I often use Yeslick at some point or roll my own f/c multi. You make a good point about wisdom bonus and spells, too. One thing, though, you get 2nd and 3rd level spells faster with a pure class cleric, and that can be a huge boon at lower levels. Also, I love Viconia as a character for RP reasons, so I'm biased there. As for charname, I usually prefer to play a single class warrior type than a multi, so I have that bias, too.

Edit - P.S. You have a great username, @HaHaCharade, and portrait - Animals is a classic, classic album.

Ha, thanks! Oh yeah. Dogs is my favorite Floyd song from that album

UnderstandMouseMagic

OP, what do you mean when you say you can't get far?
Can't be effectiveness, that group is very strong.

What is it you want to do which you can't do now, or looking forward, won't be able to do?

For instance, I can't stand not being able to open locks as charname, so I always find myself starting as thief. Doesn't matter how often the advantages of different charname are pointed out, can't get past not being able to open things. On the other hand, it doesn't worry me at all charname not being able to use spells, cleric or arcane.

So work it out from what you really want your charname to be able to do, not anybody else, then your NPC choices get a lot easier.

Melicamp

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

OP, what do you mean when you say you can't get far?
Can't be effectiveness, that group is very strong.

What is it you want to do which you can't do now, or looking forward, won't be able to do?

For instance, I can't stand not being able to open locks as charname, so I always find myself starting as thief. Doesn't matter how often the advantages of different charname are pointed out, can't get past not being able to open things. On the other hand, it doesn't worry me at all charname not being able to use spells, cleric or arcane.

So work it out from what you really want your charname to be able to do, not anybody else, then your NPC choices get a lot easier.

What I meant was you cannot get far without a need for healing in your party. Now, obviously that healer doesn't have to be the PC, but I was speaking to party options if your PC is a non-healer. I didn't literally mean progress in the game.

UnderstandMouseMagic

@Melicamp

So do you want to be the healer?
You as charname?

Seems like you want to be fighter, so with that said, you yourself replace any fighter so you don't need Kagain/Dorn.

Alternatively, dual from thief, that way you get to be fighter later game and Shar can stay as fighter, giving you options to drop Kagain/Dorn for cleric as well.
I'm currently playing swashbuckler dualed to fighter in TOB. Level 10 sb/level32 fighter, and you get the sb armour bonuses.

If you are going to go through SOD as well, then my advice would be to ensure you are a reasonable fighter (to take front line duties) as you lose Kagain/Shar and Dorn is quite late IMO.

Zaghoul

I sometimes take a different approach to play an 'evil' character. I was never of the opinion that an ALL EVIL group worked best from a role playing point of view. CHARNAME evil, ok, but do I want to surround myself with a full party of OTHER evil characters as well. I mean talk about the reality of getting turned in or stabbed in the back.
So I might include some good(they are useful to my needs, maybe some neutrals that go either way, and possibly an evil my right hand man(woman), if I trust them enough.

Just because a group is all evil does not mean they all want or will support the main character and all like each other.( now this is from my heavily roleplayed point of view) For some reason I seem to remember Monte and Xzar leaving at the last Saervok fight sometimes in the original release of the game but I may be mistaken.
Would like to see more of this incorporated into the game.

Heck, in PnP, some of my ol groups(often heavily neutral to evil, with the occasionaly good one) if somebody got taken out or hurt bad, another who go up to him on the ground and say "well, I guess you ain't gonna be needing them nice new sneakers anymore, are you".

But it helps I think, with a fighter cleric in particular, to get your religious background down, flesh out which deity you follow and promote that(some deites might not like certain things, races, etc.)
I mean you might even go around handing out tracts or something trying to promote the faith( roleplayed that way anyway).

Gynsburghe

I'm trying a CN Swashbuckler party - with CHARNAME (Greinaan, Dwarf) being somewhat the 'voice of reason'. I've abandoned a lot of 'evil' playthroughs because they didn't feel right. The character is set to take dual, if I want to - fighter or mage.

I think that mod options offer A LOT in these sort of experiences - especially if you aren't looking for the upfront, 'kill 'em all' approaches. A character like Tenya offers a lot of opportunities for soft edges, whilst keeping that bitter backlash of anger. I am also growing quite fond of Verrsza. A number of the vanilla NPCS, especially without NPC Project, are really not quite right. "Rough World" gets you a helluva discount on goods whilst being pursued by the forces of Good. This isn't just limited to NPCs and difficulty tweaks - new quests will solve that "I don't make as much experience' conundrum. And, for Bhaal's sake, remove the XP Cap and play the game where it gives you enough to kill and grab XP.

I think characters like Faldorn, with the expanded later edition alignment changes, offer a wealth of options that don't approach the often lamented "stupid evil" gameplay (chaotic stupid is not an alignment, it is a lifestyle).

I'm not sure that I want Greinaan to ascend the Throne in the end, he is too pragmatic and mortal. He still isn't finding your boyfriend for free nor is he going to put up with Jaheira being his nanny. He might protect a 10 year old cleric of Umberlee, but she's cool and you're, well, rich.

Siege killed my last shot at Greinaan, I just felt vile... which he's not... well, not really... well, maybe a little...

I'm still not playing with Eldoth... Tiax, however, does indeed rule.

Dave/Gynsburghe

Gynsburghe

My, rough, planned party is heavily modded (I tend to prefer 4 characters, but will swell to include others) -

BG1 (with Drizzt Saga, SOA and DSOTSC):

Greinaan - Dwarven Swashbuckler (dualed possibly)
Tenya - CN Cleric (Priestess of Umberlee, if I can find the mod)
Verrsza - CE Rakasha Ranger (I like the voicing and the wild 'beast' aspect)
Xzar - CE Necromancer

with appearances from Monty & Tiax - as well as Dorn and possibly Viconia. I absolutely love Baeloth's voice acting, but I do not like Sorcerers - and he is a bit OP - but whether or not I can resist on a revised Legacy of Bhaal playthrough has to be seen (seriously, "Rough World", check it out). As Greinaan fancies himself a pirate, I expect Safana to try my patience - but I know how to change voice sets, which doesn't diminish NPC Project. I have Imoen modded out to be a Bard (Blade) if I need more spellcasting sword fighter action, and her voice set is modded to be less innocent (added bg2 sounds). Imoen still fits the canon awkwardly like this, especially for a less than goodie-goodie party.

SOD (still under mods, just not quest ones I guess):

Greinaan (possibly dualled at this point, if I do it will be at lvl 9 - which, with mods, will be BG1)
Tenya (No SoD content but... my charge, to raise appropriately, likely a dual to Corsair, illegally, to hold RP)
Verrsza
M'Khiin (I just like this character, and she is reasonable, which appeals to Greinaan)

Again Baeloth is a loose cannon, as I do love the characterization - much like Viconia (who is redundant with Tenya, regardless of game, who I will keep all the way through, dialogue or not... I really should help with that). Dorn might help hold the front line if I don't dual to fighter,


BG2:

Greinaan (if he's not dualled, I will not dual)
Tenya (exportable NPC, I won't abandon this character for this playthrough)

... and that's where it gets tricky. I'd love to help out with the 'parenting' path of Tenya mod-wise - but I like to play her in the morally ambiguous party. I perceive her as becoming less of a cleric under Greinaan, and more of a fighter (Corsair - Might & Guile mod) due to the 'pirate's life for me' attitude. I want Wilson, regardless, so I am going to suck up in sort of a way to Rasaad and Neera (life crisis? I don't know, I just like bears, a lot). Greinaan has a druid undertone, a 'natural order' sort of vibe - he just *hates* establishment and altruistic good, finding it cliché and, well, underpaid.

I don't really want to deal with Sarevok, at all, since I killed him and he was a general bitch. I have no problem with Drow, so Viconia and/or Baeloth still stand a shot. I'm not sure about Korgan, but I'm not sold on his character. I actively dislike a lot of the 'go both ways' characters. I could grab Dorn for muscle, but I just don't hear great things about his later playability, and I'm looking for a dark fantasy playthrough. Greinaan isn't interested overly in elves, because they have a totally separate agenda from him. Verrsza hasn't been ported to BG2 yet, and he seems to be a character I'd need to interact with to find value from - I expect that my 102 pt character can handle a lot on his own, and I'd like to have my characters have dialogue (I can *never* drop Tenya once I have her, it might just be the parent in me - but she is badass, and has a ton of room to grow into a companion of merit).

---

I've added a few NPCs to BG1/SoD at current - and this might change - but I can easily see the core. It might be my first solid 'over modded' playthrough (ie IT WON'T CRASH), but it feels OK - despite my worries that Drizzt might find us a little too self serving. My last (NG) playthrough ended up bugged to hell, and I had a save corruption that ended everything (complete new install, couldn't salvage) - so I went back to a character I wanted to give a chance to, who ended in SoD because I didn't make the 'proper' choices (I just quit, because it didn't 'feel right'). I'm currently playing the modified LoB from Rough World, and it's working out pretty good. I'm starting to hate the beginning game, due to playing it too much, but my mod setup is encouraging me.

For those interested, I'm playing with SCS (no harder mages, but everything else increased including the f'in kobolds), Elminster's Rough World (run on LoB - pretty much all of it), DSOTSC, SoA, Drizzt's Saga, BG Quests, Might & Guile (no changed Kensai or feats), Spell Revisions, NPC Project, Rogue Rebalancing, FG Cleric kits, Eldritch Magic, and a bunch of NPC and tweak mods - mostly aimed at preserving the PnP experience). I'm making myself indentify everything right now, and it makes immersion much more possible if ridiculous sometimes (Seriously? It's worth 5 gp, I know that, I'm not paying you to tell me that!)

I will remod my BG2 once my wife is done with her first playthrough (SCS and Xan mods, some tweaks) to include more material.

Gynsburghe/Dave

Zaghoul

@Gynsburghe I have only seen one real bug with Tenya in BGEE V2.3 and that involves Angelo's arrest of the party in the Flaming FIst HQ. Tenya has some great dialogue but the party gets 'stuck' in prison sometimes. I have been dropping her quick if that is imminent and adding her back after getting out. She is a fun NPC though. Just might have to reload it a few times there otherwise. @Coutelier says not sure why and might look into it.

Gynsburghe

I ran into that a couple of times with prior runs, which is why I leave the console enabled (teleport...). I have yet to go up to grab her, waiting a couple more levels.

I did pick up Vynd today, not sure I'm gonna stick with him but a little extra muscle is appreciated...

Vithar

@Melicamp
I completed the game few days ago on ''Insane'' with Main Character - Dragon Disciple Female Elf (Neutral Evil).
My party at the end was - Skie + Eldoth , Dorn , Viconia & Tiax.

My early to mid game party was - Xzar + Monty , Skie + Eldoth were (Safana and Garrick).
At some point i had Kaegan and Uncle Quayle with me also.
Yes i take some ''neutral'' characters with me because they fit my playstyle and the concept i have about an Evil Party.

My Reputation was between 3-4 to 10 bouncing during the whole game (i don't remember the starting one and i don't count it).

Remember that doing only ''evil'' stuff with ''evil'' party is basically waste of time and stupid , sometimes you can take the good way just to take a reward and then start the bad stuff upon those who believed in you!

Zaghoul

Vithar said:

Remember that doing only ''evil'' stuff with ''evil'' party is basically waste of time and stupid , sometimes you can take the good way just to take a reward and then start the bad stuff upon those who believed in you!

That's the way.

DevardKrown

Kick out Edwin

Bealoth has all the good spells. and at the end of the day he can still identify your gear on the spot.


as for CHARNAME why not go with a Half-Orc Fighter/Cleric. 19 Starting Strength is a beast. and with 19 con and Bucklys Buckler from the friendly arm in you basically get free HP Reg on CHARNAME every time you Travel/Sleep. (and don't forget to swap out your offhand for that buckler , alternative rush to lighthouse and grab con book)

you also could keep Bealoth for more Magic Umpf since CHARNAME and Kagain don't need healing during rest/travel and the others shouldn't get hit in the first place.



as for "a evil play through" remember that there is no benefit from low rep aside your shifty party members giving you a pat on the back, you just have to keep it under 18, a Murder Normally half's your reputation. good candidates for being Murdered are
-Shandalar right before giving back the cloak , there is no quest to complete so you not only get 26000 xp but your rep dropped.
-Noralee in the BG Docks after giving her Gauntlets Back.
-Unshley in friendly arm in after Returning the Belt.
-The woman in Nashkel from Dorns quest , just tell her what happend to her love int he most cruel way and she goes hostile.
- The Drunk North-West of the Temple map.

those normally get me through a full run.

Vithar

DevardKrown said:

as for "a evil play through" remember that there is no benefit from low rep aside your shifty party members giving you a pat on the back, you just have to keep it under 18, a Murder Normally half's your reputation. good candidates for being Murdered are
-Shandalar right before giving back the cloak , there is no quest to complete so you not only get 26000 xp but your rep dropped.
-Noralee in the BG Docks after giving her Gauntlets Back.
-Unshley in friendly arm in after Returning the Belt.
-The woman in Nashkel from Dorns quest , just tell her what happend to her love int he most cruel way and she goes hostile.
- The Drunk North-West of the Temple map.

those normally get me through a full run.

The kid near the attacked Caravans gives also minus reputation if you kill it.

kansasbarbarian

My go to evil party is always the same Viconia,Shar-teel,Dorn,Baeloth,Kaigan.
But if I do an all shorty run I obviously grab the gnomes,halfling, and dwarves.

Artona

My last evil party was my assassin (NE, iirc), Dorn, Montaron and Xzar modded to mage/cleric. Two characters with poison weapon render mages absolutely harmless.