Cleric/Thief - Awesome or Rubbish?

Oxford_Guy

I'll be running my main first run-through of BGEE with an evil elf fighter/mage, but have been thinking of running a slower parallel game as a Gnome or Half-Orc Cleric/Thief, as I think they might be an under-rated class, if played appropriately, and would like to try one out, but were wondering what others thought...

Obviously they are very limited in backstab weapons - staves or clubs only (plus *some* of the magically generated ones, though I'm not exactly sure which ones work and which don't), at least until UAI, and can only use a sling for ranged, but they can still swap to flails/hammers/maces etc. for melee, which are all pretty good in BG2 (and there's a great hammer in BG1). Unlike a Mage/Thief, the thief can still wear leather armours, and a helmet and shield (when not using a stave).

A Cleric/Thief can scout and find/disable traps and open locks under Sanctuary (though still needs to hide to get a backstab bonus) and can buff for backstabs with Draw Upon Holy might, and there are other spells that work well with this class too.

Mungri

Dont forget the traps they can cast, they are mighty powerful too.

Djonne

Never tried it.

What kind of gods a cleric thief is likely to follow?

ginger_hammer

Doesn't seem a good match of classes, although I have to admit I have never tried it.

ryuken87

It's ok. The class is all about utility with a ton of micromanagement required to do anything powerful. This isn't something I look for in a PC, whom I want to be the one dishing out the pain in the party, however that may be.

Kirkor

I tried to create one, but there are soo many obstacles.
I think he can only be a gnome, or something. I've always wanted to create elven Assassin/cleric using swords (roleplaying as Cleric of Mask)... But it's not possible to do

Mungri

You can be a gnome or half orc.

Oxford_Guy

Djonne said:

Never tried it.

What kind of gods a cleric thief is likely to follow?

Cyric: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cyric

Oxford_Guy

Kirkor said:

I tried to create one, but there are soo many obstacles.
I think he can only be a gnome, or something. I've always wanted to create elven Assassin/cleric using swords (roleplaying as Cleric of Mask)... But it's not possible to do

You can do a dual human Assassin>Cleric, though that's not really making the most of the Assassin Kit (extra backstab damage etc.)

Pantalion

Other: 'S alright.

Not what I would call a power combo, but pretty solid. Doesn't add as much to the cleric as it does the mage, and not a lot of synergy between Cleric Heavy Armour and Thief's requirement for leather.

Oxford_Guy

Pantalion said:

Other: 'S alright.

Not what I would call a power combo, but pretty solid. Doesn't add as much to the cleric as it does the mage, and not a lot of synergy between Cleric Heavy Armour and Thief's requirement for leather.

But at least you can wear *some* armour, also a cleric/thief has better THACO progression than a mage/thief, which will help with backstabs (as will DUHM) and more HP, increasing survivability

Jaxsbudgie

Swashbuckler 10 > Cleric is fun.

Oxford_Guy

Jaxsbudgie said:

Swashbuckler 10 > Cleric is fun.

But no backstab (which is half the fun of being a thief), has to human (so no shorty saving throw and thief bonus, or half-orc high Str/Con) and dualing is tedious...

Oxford_Guy

BTW I put "other" for my vote, as I think I need to play one for longer to find out how good or not they work out in practice.

DJKajuru

In Icewind Dale they're really fun because your thief will be twice as useful (healing spells are a must in IWD), I Baldur's Gate I wouldn't give much thought to that class since I already got Imoen and Yoshimo in the party!

trinit

if you buff and micromanage it's awesome. has some unconventional and interesting options open, but for raw power i think the fighter/cleric is better...

i think i will try some cleric variant when bg:ee comes out. with more class varied romantic options, cleric as pc is no longer obsolete

Pantalion

Oxford_Guy said:

Pantalion said:

Other: 'S alright.

Not what I would call a power combo, but pretty solid. Doesn't add as much to the cleric as it does the mage, and not a lot of synergy between Cleric Heavy Armour and Thief's requirement for leather.

But at least you can wear *some* armour, also a cleric/thief has better THACO progression than a mage/thief, which will help with backstabs (as will DUHM) and more HP, increasing survivability

Agreed, it's not a bad combination by any means, but a thief/mage picks up the ability (long term) to use helms and shields, elven chain, and proficiency with most weapons (not to mention Tenser's). Stealth is also more valuable for the mage, since the mage is squishy.

Meanwhile, the cleric can now do thief things, and later can use weapons they're not proficient with, and as a cleric, they're inherently pretty tanky anyway, so stealth isn't so useful... It's just not giving as much to the combination (and presumably why Fighter/Cleric/Thief isn't a thing).

TJ_Hooker

Although I've never tried one myself, I've read a few times that a cleric/thief has great potential, but I think it's one of those things where you really need to make constant use of cleric spells, especially buffs, to get the most out of it. In particular I think I remember reading about the great power of casting Righteous Magic and then backstabbing, as RM lets you inflict max damage with every strike (guaranteeing brutal backstab damage) as well as giving +1 strength/3 levels.

awin123

Swashy 10 -> cleric is a great combo, you get free armor, hit/damage, and 3* in TWF plus you can get 150 in find/disarm traps. It's not tedious at all to dual class, starting a new character in BG2 I hit 10 after finishing the dungeon and Aerie's quest and getting level 11 as a cleric takes almost no work at all. The reason backstab doesn't really matter for a C/T is because he has no reliable way to setup backstabs for himself, AND you have very limited weapon choice when it comes to backstabs, so you're better off getting the bonuses of swashbuckler and forgetting backstab all together. Using flail of the ages and defender of easthaven on this character at higher levels with a few buffs going is ridiculous and the character is much more interesting than the typical zerker/cleric in my opinion. It also solves the issue of not having a reliable thief in BG2 as Yoshi bites the big one and the other thieves are kinda bad for disarming and finding traps unless you like to keep potions around all the time.

Realistically a mage/thief is much better for backstabbing since you can give yourself backstabs at will with the myriad of invisibility spells and you aren't limited at all in terms of what weapons you can backstab with. The problem really is that backstabbing in general becomes less and less effective as more and more monsters become immune to it.

Philhelm

Djonne said:

Never tried it.

What kind of gods a cleric thief is likely to follow?

Any god that a cleric could follow, I'd imagine. While Cyric was suggested, a Thief need not be evil. In fact, a Thief doesn't even really have to be thief. One thing I like about 3rd Edition is that the Thief was renamed to Rogue and could be of Lawful Good Alignment. From a thread I had created asking about Van Richten, the Van Helsing clone from the Ravenloft setting, it seems that he was a Lawful Good Thief with high INT and WIS, and was a doctor by profession. Now, imagine such a character as a Cleric/Thief, on a mission to destroy evil and has learned some tricks in stealth, disabling traps, and opening locks in order to help track down his evil prey.

ryuken87 said:

It's ok. The class is all about utility with a ton of micromanagement required to do anything powerful. This isn't something I look for in a PC, whom I want to be the one dishing out the pain in the party, however that may be.

When I first played Baldur's Gate, I had a Fighter as my PC. Using the Thief to scout around, and the fact that it could interact with the game world at a higher level, quickly made the Thief my favorite class. I felt like I was doing more with the Thief NPC than with my own character.

I think that the Cleric/Thief would really shine with the "Use Any Item" high level ability.

Mungri

Rather than a 10 Swashbuckler > Cleric, I think you miss an extra angle on the usefulness of having a multi Cleric / Thief instead, at least if you choose to play with a custom multiplayer group ...

You can have a group with a Swashbuckler, Ranger and the Multi Cleric / Thief.

You can spec the Swashbuckler to be dualable to a Mage, and the Ranger to be dualable to a Cleric (they get druid spells). While your swashbuckler levels are inactive, and your ranger is leveling up, the Cleric / Thief keeps healing, traps and locks all handled.

It is an ultimate support / utility character to have in a custom group, enabling you to specify 5 other OP dual class combinations, if you choose to play this way. Though its a very niche use of the class, it also demonstrates the most usefulness of it.

E.G for a full custom party idea:

Kensai dualable to a Mage
Swashbuckler dualable to a Mage
Elf Archer
Ranger dualable to a Cleric
Cleric / Thief multiclass
Sorcerer.

The amount of ownage that group would deal is incredible, and it has access to fighter, mage, thief and cleric HLAs. TBH neither the Swashbuckler or Ranger > Cleric are needed either, both can be swapped to anything else.

Also never underestimate how powerful thief Traps and HLAs are for any multiclass thief combination. While Clerics may benefit the least from the combination, they can still throw nasty traps, and also buff themselves up with Assassination, Righteous Magic, Draw Upon Holy Might, and some other melee buffs.

Another suggestion was to utilize scrolls and use shapechange scrolls to transform into a golem with Assassination and Righteous Magic. The amount of damage that would be dealt by that is insane.

neleothesze

@Djonne Mask for example. God of thieves by definition. Demarch (Cleric) of Mask can be True Neutral.

Funny how none of the people who voted rubbish made a post to explain their choice except for ginger_hammer who stated that he didn't play the class.

I for one played it more for the utility it provides than the backstab + buff combo. It's the same reason for taking Tiax in a group.

Want to run with 4 fighters in a group? No worries, grab a mage and a cleric/thief. Want to run with 4 mages in a group? No worries, grab a fighter and a cleric/thief.
Spooky looking area? Sanctuary and detect traps. Dispel all the illusions enemy mages cast (especially in BG1 with Tutu this is very potent) by just sitting there. Know what battle is coming up? Set traps, buff the party, animate a few minions and start dispelling illusions by enemy mages. Heal as needed.

It can be played as a damage class but I think it's greatest strength lies in the fact that it's the ultimate utility combo.
Charname won't be the one with the most kills or taking the most blows but he will be the most useful. It's a pain to run a game without a cleric/druid and it's a pain to run it without a thief. [Doable but not fun for everyone, especially when not soloing and the XP is shared] This way you put 2 of the most necessary slots into 1 and have one extra role-play slot or one slot for a powerful NPC.

At high level just pick thief HLA first at either levelup. Grab an UAI and fill up on Spike Traps then pick based on preference. Also, the thac0 loss from using swords/daggers/etc with UAI but no proficiecy instead of 1 point is minor at high level.

Mungri

Yup, you can have 5 pure OP DPS classes, plus your Cleric / Thief, as in my example above

Jaxsbudgie

neleothesze said:

Charname won't be the one with the most kills or taking the most blows but he will be the most useful. It's a pain to run a game without a cleric/druid and it's a pain to run it without a thief. [Doable but not fun for everyone, especially when not soloing and the XP is shared]

Agreed, for example Viconia normally contributes about 2% of the party's total kill count, but without her there wouldn't be a party!

Mungri

One thing I dont like though is that the thieving icon goes into the extra abilities menu as it cant fit on the main skill bar. I'd rather have turn undead moved into the menu, and the thief icon remain on the hotbar.

Jaxsbudgie

Mungri said:

One thing I dont like though is that the thieving icon goes into the extra abilities menu as it cant fit on the main skill bar. I'd rather have turn undead moved into the menu, and the thief icon remain on the hotbar.

I believe they're fixing this in EE ... at least I bloody hope they are!

Cheesebelly

It's the best class in the game. It's like a... priest-spell bard :P

@Oxford_Guy : backstabs being half the fun of thief is VERY subjective. I myself don't like backstabs at all (reason why I consider Swashie being the best kit in the game in the first place!) I also don't like shorties for the protagonist either

Philhelm

neleothesze said:

At high level just pick thief HLA first at either levelup. Grab an UAI and fill up on Spike Traps then pick based on preference. Also, the thac0 loss from using swords/daggers/etc with UAI but no proficiecy instead of 1 point is minor at high level.

I made a human dual-classed thief/cleric and had put proficiency points in longswords, crossbows, etc. When I got the dual-class, the proficiency point was there, but the weapon name wasn't listed. Does anyone know if the thief's proficiencies will still apply?

neleothesze

@Philhelm No, you lost it afaik.

Quartz

It can be awesome but it takes a whole lot of work. So ... somewhere in between "Awesome" and "Rubbish."

DJKajuru

In BG1 , any class/dual/multi that can cast hold person and heal wounds from the start will be a welcome addittion!