Sure, there might be more powerful combinations out there, but this def seem one of the most enjoyable to me. Micro management is a must for the main character imo.
Me too for CHARNAME, not for the NPCs
The one drawback I can found is the race options. Havent decided on a Gnome or Half-Orc yet. Leaning towards Gnome though.
I think the Gnome is better overall (shorty saves + thieving bonuses), though I hope they improve the Gnome avatars and paperdolls in BGEE in BGT/BG2 they're terrible to the point that they make me not want to play Gnomes.
@Oxford_Guy I think all the paperdolls from BG2 are shit. But according to what Ive read and seen, they are going to use the BG1 ones (with an extended range of visuals for items). I just hope they are going to use the same setup for BG2EE. But Im sure they will, since this new UI is taking the best features from both the old ones + mods and merging it into a new one.
Being neither part-mage nor part-fighter, cleric/thief isn't the most powerful option but it's really useful to have in a group and surprisingly competent solo. I like it. Plus clerics and thieves level up the quickest generally, so even by multiclassing you level at a decent speed.
I usually play as a human swashbuckler/cleric for the 3 points in duel-wield as well as the thac0, damage and ac bonuses. Its pretty OP as far as characters go to be entirely honest, roughly on par with Kensai-Wizard duel-class.
Few things you should know about it first though (presuming this hasn't changed for BG:EE).
Your forced to use cleric weapons, of these weapons you can only back-stab with one and that is the quarter staff (this is the reason i prefer human swashbucklers duel-class to the other race multi-classes).
You don't need any points in find traps as you can use the cleric spell 'find traps" to do everything that the skill does as though you had max points in it.
Although you don't have a fighters thac0 you can cast a number of cleric spells that will give you fighter equivalent thac0, additional cleric buffs (bless/prayer/aid and others) will push your thac0 up to grand-master skill equivalents for thac0.
Low armor can be somewhat annoying in the early game but eventually elven/dragon medium armors eliminate this, if you take the swashbuckler route the armor bonuses from the duel-class will help.
Needs a high stat roll when rolling attributes, 90+ preferably.
presuming this hasn't changed for BG:EE). Your forced to use cleric weapons, of these weapons you can only back-stab with one and that is the quarter staff (this is the reason i prefer human swashbucklers duel-class to the other race multi-classes).
You can backstab with clubs and some (but not all) of the spell-created magic weapons too. Some of the staves in BG2 (and even the Staff of Striking in BG1) make excellent backstab weapons, even some of the clubs (in BG2 anyway) are good, e.g. Gnasher, which provides residual damage over 4 rounds, making it lethal against enemy mages.
Missing out on what the cleric levels bring to backstabs (e.g. DUHM) seems to be missing out on one of the main benefits of this class.
Also, the non-human races bring other advantages, apart from being able to multi-class - the high strength of the half-orc (providing additional to hit and damage bonuses, great for backstabs), and the improved spell/wand saves and thief skills of the gnome. Humans have a greater number of romance options, though, which might be an issue if those appeal.
Personally I find dual-classing tedious, especially if starting in BG1, but realise this is less of a concern for others.
You don't need any points in find traps as you can use the cleric spell 'find traps" to do everything that the skill does as though you had max points in it.
True, though in BG1 you don't have that many spells and the level 2 slots may be better used for other things. Also one of the benefits of a cleric/thief is that you can have the "find traps" ability activated whilst hidden by the level 1 spell "Sanctuary" for tougher dungeons.
Arguably, if you have a mage in party, you could skip points in open locks early on and (especially if you have a Str 19 half-orc) just bash the easier chests open, and use "Knock" for the harder ones, though that could be seen as a waste of a level 2 mage spell slot.
Although you don't have a fighters thac0 you can cast a number of cleric spells that will give you fighter equivalent thac0, additional cleric buffs (bless/prayer/aid and others) will push your thac0 up to grand-master skill equivalents for thac0.
Yes, Draw Upon Holy Might and the like look great for a cleric/thief (or thief>cleric), and the Cleric THAC0 is better than a straight thief's too, although not as good as a fighter/thief's
Low armor can be somewhat annoying in the early game but eventually elven/dragon medium armors eliminate this, if you take the swashbuckler route the armor bonuses from the duel-class will help.
Needs a high stat roll when rolling attributes, 90+ preferably.
That can be a bit of a problem with this class, as I don't like infinitely rolling to get the "perfect" score for CHARNAME, I try to limit myself usually to 10 or 20 rolls max., depending on how easy the class is to roll (e.g. elven rangers are pretty easy to roll good stats for).
I usually play as a human swashbuckler/cleric for the 3 points in duel-wield as well as the thac0, damage and ac bonuses. Its pretty OP as far as characters go to be entirely honest, roughly on par with Kensai-Wizard duel-class.
I do not have a clear opinion on the subject since I have never played with one, but after reading this thread carefully, I'm more and more interested by this multiclass.
Do you think Sanctuary is quick enough to cast reliably in combat to escape (to repeat)? Have not tried this at higher levels
By higher levels, you should have UAI and be able to swap on a Magi Staff for a quick escape. You'll have to switch back to your Ram staff to strike again, but it's almost unfair!
Do you think Sanctuary is quick enough to cast reliably in combat to escape (to repeat)? Have not tried this at higher levels
By higher levels, you should have UAI and be able to swap on a Magi Staff for a quick escape. You'll have to switch back to your Ram staff to strike again, but it's almost unfair!
One thing I dont like though is that the thieving icon goes into the extra abilities menu as it cant fit on the main skill bar. I'd rather have turn undead moved into the menu, and the thief icon remain on the hotbar.
I believe they're fixing this in EE ... at least I bloody hope they are!
I have been playing around with a number of human swashbuckler/cleric builds since this thread was original created. After a lot of thought, effort and hectic leveling (ToB xp Cap) i got my latest creation to max level and i have to say it poops on anything else i have ever seen by so much its not funny.
He currently has buffed, -22ac, -23thaco and is duel-wielding longswords...
long swords you say? YOUR LYING! Im not give it some thought for a little and then read on.
The trick was in the swashbuckler levels, my character is Swashbuckler 25/Cleric 28 At level 23 swashbuckler i took Use any Item and at 25 i took Whirlwind and then Duel-Classed to Cleric, use any Item remains active while leveling your cleric levels and is still active afterwards, when my swashbuckler levels re-activated i regained my 2pips in longswords and due to Use Any Item i could equip them and yes, they still use my Longsword pips (also have 2 in scimitars, 1 in shortbow and 3 in Two-weapon Fighting). + a whole heap of less usefull ones from my cleric levels. I also still have whirl-wind!
I like to have a cleric/thief as my other character when duo'ing through the game.
I care nothing for backstabbing, personally. The only real use I have for a thief is opening locked things and finding traps. I never set traps, pick pockets, hide in shadows, etc. They can be fun, but I find them slow and utterly unnecessary.
The only things I like about clerics in BG1 is animate undead and healing spells. I rarely bother to use to do anything else, other than the occasional hold person.
I'm in no way saying that these classes can't be effective in other ways, I'm speaking purely of my tastes.
Don't forget Gond! The combination can really fit into a lot of faiths, but Cyric and Gond are especially well-fitted to the role...
That said, I'm too lazy to review the entire thread, but backstab + Staff of Striking + maybe some stuff that makes your Strength score go really high.
@Darkovan O.o wow, you have some patience! the build sounds awesome, but isn't it realized only in the endgame?
that aside, i'm playing swash/cleric right now and i'm quite enjoying it. dualled at level 7... -.- seems i'm basically playing a cleric that can set traps, open locks and has minor bonuses. still better then plain cleric i think.
as an actual character? who backstabs with goddamn quarterstaves? no. just no.
From what i've read quarterstaves are the best weapons for backstabbing..
Personally i do not use them when i use a thief/assassin.. EVEN if they deal more damage i'd rather have a weapon that makes more sense RP wise..
Assassin's just don't carry big sticks around and if they're going to stab someone they need a bladed weapon; im honestly suprised non bladed weapons would even get the modifier..
As for cleric/thiefs.. i would rather play a thief/mage or pure thief while having my pure cleric or fighter/cleric doing the buffing
Two utility classes in one convenient package. It's main appeal to me would be freeing Imoen to dual class at level 2 and freedom to choose other companions without worrying about thief/cleric skills.
as an actual character? who backstabs with goddamn quarterstaves? no. just no.
Before having played this class that would have been my initial reaction, as well.
But since having tried it out... I find that using a staff for backstabs is kind of cool actually. The character presumably would stand a bit farther back and heft a mighty swing. With an enchanted stave the high damage makes more sense than otherwise. But as we well know, not everything in AD&D is logical/realistic.
Honestly, using a quarterstaff to attack an unsuspecting enemy from behind isn't significantly less believable than using a longsword let's say. I mean the whole business of "sneaking up" on enemies, often without any sort of cover--and especially in broad daylight--isn't believable to begin with, either. It's more or less a supernatural skill akin to invisibility, such as a Shaolin monk might pull off in the mythos of martial arts films (but it's then based in spiritual energies). Indeed, a cleric-thief can Sanctuary and backstab, both, (IIRC... think so, been a long time) which is the only way "backstabbbing" is actually makes sense for those 'broad daylight with no cover' backstabs.
Anyway, just sayin'. And again, just one man's experience, but I was surprised at how satisfying it actually turned out to be to have a half-orc backstab with a stave!
I actually play a cleric/thief. I choose the half-orc race, you can have, with books, 20 str (backstab hurt and my bullet make more than 10 damage), 19 dex (good tac0 with sling), 20 con (regeneration!) and 21 wis (nice bonus spell)! The only backdraw is the attack/round, but I really enjoy my charname!
Comments
I think all the paperdolls from BG2 are shit. But according to what Ive read and seen, they are going to use the BG1 ones (with an extended range of visuals for items). I just hope they are going to use the same setup for BG2EE.
But Im sure they will, since this new UI is taking the best features from both the old ones + mods and merging it into a new one.
52% - Awesome
19% - Rubbish
22% - Other
That seems to be pretty favourable so far, I was actually expecting more negativity against this multiclass, interesting!
I usually play as a human swashbuckler/cleric for the 3 points in duel-wield as well as the thac0, damage and ac bonuses. Its pretty OP as far as characters go to be entirely honest, roughly on par with Kensai-Wizard duel-class.
Few things you should know about it first though (presuming this hasn't changed for BG:EE).
Your forced to use cleric weapons, of these weapons you can only back-stab with one and that is the quarter staff (this is the reason i prefer human swashbucklers duel-class to the other race multi-classes).
You don't need any points in find traps as you can use the cleric spell 'find traps" to do everything that the skill does as though you had max points in it.
Although you don't have a fighters thac0 you can cast a number of cleric spells that will give you fighter equivalent thac0, additional cleric buffs (bless/prayer/aid and others) will push your thac0 up to grand-master skill equivalents for thac0.
Low armor can be somewhat annoying in the early game but eventually elven/dragon medium armors eliminate this, if you take the swashbuckler route the armor bonuses from the duel-class will help.
Needs a high stat roll when rolling attributes, 90+ preferably.
Missing out on what the cleric levels bring to backstabs (e.g. DUHM) seems to be missing out on one of the main benefits of this class.
Also, the non-human races bring other advantages, apart from being able to multi-class - the high strength of the half-orc (providing additional to hit and damage bonuses, great for backstabs), and the improved spell/wand saves and thief skills of the gnome. Humans have a greater number of romance options, though, which might be an issue if those appeal.
Personally I find dual-classing tedious, especially if starting in BG1, but realise this is less of a concern for others. True, though in BG1 you don't have that many spells and the level 2 slots may be better used for other things. Also one of the benefits of a cleric/thief is that you can have the "find traps" ability activated whilst hidden by the level 1 spell "Sanctuary" for tougher dungeons.
Arguably, if you have a mage in party, you could skip points in open locks early on and (especially if you have a Str 19 half-orc) just bash the easier chests open, and use "Knock" for the harder ones, though that could be seen as a waste of a level 2 mage spell slot. Yes, Draw Upon Holy Might and the like look great for a cleric/thief (or thief>cleric), and the Cleric THAC0 is better than a straight thief's too, although not as good as a fighter/thief's That can be a bit of a problem with this class, as I don't like infinitely rolling to get the "perfect" score for CHARNAME, I try to limit myself usually to 10 or 20 rolls max., depending on how easy the class is to roll (e.g. elven rangers are pretty easy to roll good stats for).
I'm sorry but C/T does not really come close to K/M in terms of power.
I might give it a try for my next BG run :-)
He currently has buffed, -22ac, -23thaco and is duel-wielding longswords...
long swords you say? YOUR LYING!
Im not
The trick was in the swashbuckler levels, my character is Swashbuckler 25/Cleric 28
At level 23 swashbuckler i took Use any Item and at 25 i took Whirlwind and then Duel-Classed to Cleric, use any Item remains active while leveling your cleric levels and is still active afterwards, when my swashbuckler levels re-activated i regained my 2pips in longswords and due to Use Any Item i could equip them and yes, they still use my Longsword pips (also have 2 in scimitars, 1 in shortbow and 3 in Two-weapon Fighting). + a whole heap of less usefull ones from my cleric levels.
I also still have whirl-wind!
I care nothing for backstabbing, personally. The only real use I have for a thief is opening locked things and finding traps. I never set traps, pick pockets, hide in shadows, etc. They can be fun, but I find them slow and utterly unnecessary.
The only things I like about clerics in BG1 is animate undead and healing spells. I rarely bother to use to do anything else, other than the occasional hold person.
I'm in no way saying that these classes can't be effective in other ways, I'm speaking purely of my tastes.
1.) I dont like Imoen
2.) I dont like Jan
Which leaves...nobody as thief.
That said, I'm too lazy to review the entire thread, but backstab + Staff of Striking + maybe some stuff that makes your Strength score go really high.
that aside, i'm playing swash/cleric right now and i'm quite enjoying it. dualled at level 7... -.-
seems i'm basically playing a cleric that can set traps, open locks and has minor bonuses. still better then plain cleric i think.
as an actual character? who backstabs with goddamn quarterstaves? no. just no.
Personally i do not use them when i use a thief/assassin.. EVEN if they deal more damage i'd rather have a weapon that makes more sense RP wise..
Assassin's just don't carry big sticks around and if they're going to stab someone they need a bladed weapon; im honestly suprised non bladed weapons would even get the modifier..
As for cleric/thiefs.. i would rather play a thief/mage or pure thief while having my pure cleric or fighter/cleric doing the buffing
But since having tried it out... I find that using a staff for backstabs is kind of cool actually. The character presumably would stand a bit farther back and heft a mighty swing. With an enchanted stave the high damage makes more sense than otherwise. But as we well know, not everything in AD&D is logical/realistic.
Honestly, using a quarterstaff to attack an unsuspecting enemy from behind isn't significantly less believable than using a longsword let's say. I mean the whole business of "sneaking up" on enemies, often without any sort of cover--and especially in broad daylight--isn't believable to begin with, either. It's more or less a supernatural skill akin to invisibility, such as a Shaolin monk might pull off in the mythos of martial arts films (but it's then based in spiritual energies). Indeed, a cleric-thief can Sanctuary and backstab, both, (IIRC... think so, been a long time) which is the only way "backstabbbing" is actually makes sense for those 'broad daylight with no cover' backstabs.
Anyway, just sayin'. And again, just one man's experience, but I was surprised at how satisfying it actually turned out to be to have a half-orc backstab with a stave!