Best Backstabber?
Zagacious
Member Posts: 63
I've always pretty much ignored backstabbing through all my of my runthroughs, so I wanted to make a character built mostly around backstabbing. The optimal choices seem to be Elf or Shorties, and either Assassin, F/T, M/T, or F/M/T
I'm gonna talk a little about what I think of each combo, but I've only really tried out Assassin fully for backstabbing purposes, then I'd like anyone to share your thoughts on each Class/Kit for backstabbing purposes.
Assassin - Up to 4x Backstab multiplier by the end of BG 1 EE, Plus the poison weapons. However, I found the backstab successful hit rate to be very low, especially for Plate and Above enemies. Constantly had to abuse Invisibility since Hide in Shadows doesn't seem to work that well even with > 100 Skill. Enemies with high AC are pretty much 90% immune to backstab since you rarely hit them.
F/T - This one has a lower Backstab multiplier, but I would think the improved weapon proficiencies, fighter thac0, and fighter attacks per round would make this better at backstabbing than Assassin, but I haven't tried yet.
Any M/T or F/M/T combo: You get the added bonus of casting spells to make backstabbing easier, but I prefer to just have another separate Mage to do this for me.
C/T - There are a select few Cleric spells that can make backstabbing more reliable/better, but I'd still rather have a separate Cleric/Fighter or something to boost me up. The only exception to this C/T and M/T rule is that some spells only apply to yourself
Also, include any tips and tricks you use for backstabbing- I know there's a lot of spells like Invisibility and Mislead that can make backstabbing a lot more reliable, but I'm sure there's a few I haven't thought of before.
Edit:
I just realized it was possible to backstab while wearing a shield, I figured it would disable all thieving skills, this makes it a little less risky to go in for backstabs near groups of enemies. As long as you don't need the melee damage aside from backstabbing it can be useful
I'm gonna talk a little about what I think of each combo, but I've only really tried out Assassin fully for backstabbing purposes, then I'd like anyone to share your thoughts on each Class/Kit for backstabbing purposes.
Assassin - Up to 4x Backstab multiplier by the end of BG 1 EE, Plus the poison weapons. However, I found the backstab successful hit rate to be very low, especially for Plate and Above enemies. Constantly had to abuse Invisibility since Hide in Shadows doesn't seem to work that well even with > 100 Skill. Enemies with high AC are pretty much 90% immune to backstab since you rarely hit them.
F/T - This one has a lower Backstab multiplier, but I would think the improved weapon proficiencies, fighter thac0, and fighter attacks per round would make this better at backstabbing than Assassin, but I haven't tried yet.
Any M/T or F/M/T combo: You get the added bonus of casting spells to make backstabbing easier, but I prefer to just have another separate Mage to do this for me.
C/T - There are a select few Cleric spells that can make backstabbing more reliable/better, but I'd still rather have a separate Cleric/Fighter or something to boost me up. The only exception to this C/T and M/T rule is that some spells only apply to yourself
Also, include any tips and tricks you use for backstabbing- I know there's a lot of spells like Invisibility and Mislead that can make backstabbing a lot more reliable, but I'm sure there's a few I haven't thought of before.
Edit:
I just realized it was possible to backstab while wearing a shield, I figured it would disable all thieving skills, this makes it a little less risky to go in for backstabs near groups of enemies. As long as you don't need the melee damage aside from backstabbing it can be useful
Post edited by Zagacious on
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Comments
I tend to prefer using the timer method, switch weapons right before the backstab so it starts the timer to be able to hide again, count off the seconds in your head THEN backstab. Better to run and hide faster again.
Shadowdancer almost got plain boring using that method, Id walk alone right into a group of enemies with the cloak of ND and just methodically stand there and wipe them all out, one by one, no need for running to re-hide. Mummies, mind flayers, spellcasters, whatever. See invisible critters were the only real dangerous ones.
I agree with you on the assassin's low thaco. I didn't really notice it until I tried fighter/thief, but now I'm not sure if I'll go back to assassin.
I barely have the patience to level two classes, so I could never last with a F/M/T, but they're very powerful. I like the mage/thief combo but I don't play them as backstabbers as the required buffing is too high maintenance for my play style (I prefer a class with built-in fighter thaco).
In the same way that it just seems wrong to me from an RP and aesthetic standpoint to backstab with staves, I find the cleric/thief class to be incongruous and unappealing. Unless you're Tiax, that is. Tiax can make the Realms great again.
Rough terrain is now your friend. I've backstabbed Greywolf to death multiple times by simply breaking his line of sight and successfully hiding by playing ring-around-the-giant-rock. Also, if you're feeling especially cheesy and corny... Being able to Hide is calculated by YOUR line of sight, not your enemies. So if you cast Blind on yourself, you're now a discount Shadowdancer, and I've won a fight or two from being Blinded and thus being able to hide and backstab.
There're 2 items in vanilla BG that help with hiding, Shadow Thief Armor from Beregost, and Zhurlag's boots of Move Silently. Get them and keep them as soon as you can, since skill points at low levels are awful.
As for the different classes, Half Orc F/T and thief kits are definitely some of the better backstabbers, since 19 STR means that +7 damage boost is being multiplied multiple times, easily enough to kill most early-game mages in a single hit. Stalkers also probably deserve a mention for having the best THAC0, in my opinion the best Stronghold of any of the backstabbers, and... that's about it. At higher levels, what keeps Cleric/Thieves viable for backstabs is Holy Power + Draw upon Holy Might + Righteous magic for guaranteed maximum damage backstabs, which can get pretty silly.
Weapons with on-hit effects are also good, e.g. Dagger of Venom in BG, Celestial Fury in BG2.
I do not consider the Assassin the best backstabber, although the extra 7x damage is of course nice once you achieve it, which is late in SoA. I consider the Assassin's main ability to be poison and they shine as ranged sneaky poisoners or secondarily as melee backstabbing poisoners, even more so in BG1 where ranged is king.
If you are looking for a strong all-around backstabber, I suggest something that includes Fighter THACO to have the reliable THACO and the bonuses from weapon specialization.
Cleric/Thieves I hear can also be very strong backstabbers using magic to augment abilities, but I have never really played much with them and someone more knowledgeable would have to comment.
I do like Assassins more in Icewind Dale using Sneak Attacks (for the faster progression), since sneak attacking is more about working in harmony and backstabbing is more about working alone, (IMO). (Plus with sneak attack you get as many attempts as you need to land the hit.)
End-game, the best backstabber is F/M/T. Mislead abuse with Greater Whirlwind, fighter THACO and bonus attacks, and it doesn't even take *that* long to cap out your backstab multiplier, (just under 2m experience to reach x5). But F/Ts and Stalkers are both pretty good, and F/Ts have the benefit of being whatever race you want, (Half-Orcs for the +1 strength, Dwarves/Gnomes for the shorty saves).
C/T gets a special shout-out because, while the combination is odd, I think it's actually the best "thief" in the game, i.e. the best at stereotypically thiefy things. Sancutary is amazing with thief skills, (you can open locks and chests without breaking it, unlike hiding or invisibility), and the suite of cleric self-buffs makes for some top-notch backstabs. If you really want to get wonky, you can dual a Priest of Lathander or a Priest of Helm to thief and take advantage of their innate abilities; Seeking Sword attacks three times per round and can backstab, making it a bizarrely good weapon to use with Assassination, and Boon of Lathander gives you +1 APR (and stacks with itself), which is pretty much the only way to get lots of attacks with something like the Staff of Ram without taking some fighter levels.
(Also, if you're opposed to using Quarterstaves, the best backstabbing weapon in the game is probably the Black Blade of Disaster, though without an XP cap remover only the M/T will be able to access it.
It's no F/M/T of course but still something to consider.
But overall I'd say a fighter/thief would be the *best* once he/she reaches HLA's. Assassination paired with a high number of APR is pretty devastating (assuming I can use assassination to argue who is a good backstabber...) I love stalkers too and they only just win over fighter/thieves in my eyes because I just love the concept of rangers
With IR, you can backstab with every weapon in the game, but with various penalty. For example, backstabbing with a longsword (which should be harder to pull off) is made with a -1 penalty. The bigger the weapon, the bigger the penalty. Only short swords, daggers and clubs have no backstab penalty. In this setup, small weapons are now the best weapons to use for backstab, which is nice.
IR also add a +1 bonus to Short Sword of Backstabbing, which makes it THE weapon to deal big damage with a thief. Give that baby an Assassin and you can reach ×6 backstab at the end of BG1... With a few buffs, courtesy of potions and clerics, Assassins can now do a truckload of damage on a crit...
These two mods are pretty much standard for me, because they conceptually balance backstab : small weapons, which should be the go-to weapons for a thief, are now indeed their preffered weapon to do their shady businesses...
I used to play with the kit changes for thieves also but in recent times have decided to run a vanilla bounty hunter to see what all the fuss is about maze traps, as I've never actually used them. In RR they are replaced with very damaging acid traps. I am in SoD with him now.
It gives some interesting backstabbing possibilities to BH's. Esp. with the paralytic toxin and with the grease (slowing)trap & entangle traps (ain't goin nowhere buddy. WHERE you goin, nowhere (run, hide, return for a good club to the head, BIP!)
Speed factor increase. I believe it gives more chance of striking(in my experience with 1 pip) before becoming visible if first try is a miss. Or the chance to backstab if you came out of shadows(the swish sound) early but still hidden(that is when the timer starts to become visible).
A little thing but every bit helps. All my BS's were not fighters so never got the chance but would have added 2nd pip if a fighter combo. Used it with beastmasters, no multiplier but they get Hidden bonus to hit.
I mean, technically the second pip would help you a tiny bit when backstabbing with a non-magical or +1 enchanted quarterstaff, but that hardly seems worth it to me.
Half Orc Fighter/Thief or Cleric/Thief seem to be the strongest in BG1. Assassin's thac0 never gets good enough to make reliable backstabs it seems at least in BG1. By the time the assassin is high enough level to make decent backstabs, there's nothing he can successfully hit at least reliably to backstab.
Just for fun I made an evil Half-Orc Cleric/Assassin with dual wielding, slings, and 2H style + staves for backstabbing and my god he is OP lol by end of BG I was backstabbing crit for nearly 200 with staff of striking, and 80+ dmg backstabs on a regular basis. And that was without any mage or bard to further boost me. His slings were also dealing like 30 damage per hit with very low thac0 with DrawUponHolyMight, pretty strong char. Cleric/Assassin kind of seems natural for a Half-Orc tbh, even if the backstab multiplier makes it a little OP late game.
Throw on the big-fisted belt and she's perhaps the most "consistent" backstabber in the game. It's actually impossible to get a bad roll from her.