Ok, an other F/M/T thread

Souplesse

Hello,
"Désolé pour mon anglais, je suis français"

I have few questions about F/M/T:

1) I like F/M and F/T and I like 5 NPC + Charname parties. I never played à FMT, but do you think, there is enough xp from BG to TOB including SoD? Or FMT in a full team is a Waste?
Is there a big difference between a 4-5 members party without SOD or a 6 members party with SOD?

2) I know, I know, dual CF ( celestial fury then Crom) + Scarlet Ninjato in offhand is maybe the best in slot but what do you think of playing two handed sword (Caso?) + Qstaf (for BS) ??
Thank you for your advise!

DrakeICN

1. A FMT is a very good choice. My very first char was a FMT. The F part brings higher BAB (which is extra relevant, since thieves max out at 10 BAB), extra HP and the possibility to use a helmet to the already good MT.

2. I dont get the question, but what I can say is that two handes swords cannot backstab. Thats not a problem though, you can have a backstab weapon that you exit invisibility / hide with, and then switch to twohanded once it is not possible to backstab no more. A FMT gets lots of PiPs, more than he knows what to do with.

Souplesse

Thanks DrakeICN,
it's my point, BS with QS and then switch for a two handed sword!
You play your FMT in a full team?

islandking

You'll never get 9th spell, not without mod, that's the biggest trade.
Other than that fmt is too powerful even underleveled, Foa+5 plus Apr+1 off hand is arguably the most damaging dual option, if you don't mind exploits, give them to your fmt, or K>M if you have one.
Corm is better off-handed, with Foebane at main hand.

DrakeICN

Also note that dual wield is not necessarily the best choice for FMT. Single weapon and two handed weapons gets doubled threat range, so it is 3 APR with normal threat range, or two APR with double threat range - and after haste, that difference is 4 APR with normal threat range, or three APR with double threat range.

blackchimes

In a party, what is the point of the Thief multiclass though? You'll already have a Thief. Might as well roll a Fighter/Mage.

Lord_Tansheron

I'm no friend of thieves in general. I find UAI overrated, and would not trade it off with the kit bonus and GM of a dual F->M most of the time. Nor would I like to trade Fighter HLAs for lvl9 spells.

However, when running solo FMT may well offer utility you don't want to do without.

Souplesse

Backstabs and UAI

Souplesse

Ok! Thanks U!
Anyone knows the xp gain with SOd?

PaulGreystoke

Siege of Dragonspear's XP cap is 500K, up from 161K for Tales of the Sword Coast. This means a F/M/T can get to 8/9/10, up from 6/6/7 in TotSC. SoD is rather favorable to triple-classes & gives a nice leg up in exporting to BGII.

ThacoBell

F/M/T is super fun and effective. The sheer variety of options available to you far outweighs the lower levels, as a bonus you get a TON of high level abilities. Because of the versatility of your multiclass, it also gives you much more freedom to build your party.

SomeSort

So the thing about multiclasses is that in early levels, experience progression is geometric-- e.g. a lot of levels take twice as much experience as the level before. For example, reaching mage level 11 requires 375,000 XP, while reaching mage level 12 requires 750,000 XP. During the "geometric scaling" part of the XP curve, a 2-class multi will only be about a level behind a pureclass, and a 3-class multi will only be 1-2 levels behind.

When a F/M/T hits mage level 2, a pure mage will still just be mage level 3. When a F/M/T hits mage level 3, a pure mage will still be mage level 4. When a F/M/T hits 4 a mage will be 5, when a F/M/T hits 5 a mage will hit 7, F/M/T 6 = mage 8, F/M/T 7 = mage 9, F/M/T 8 = mage 10, F/M/T 9 = mage 11, F/M/T 10 = mage 12, F/M/T 11 = mage 13.

That makes multiclasses super-duper-awesome in BG1, SoD, and early BG2. You're trading 1-2 mage levels for the extra APR of a fighter *AND* the full suite of thief skills. It's a fantastic trade.

The problem comes after mage level 13, which is the first linear level-up. Starting at 13, mages gain a new level for every 375k experience, a linear progression. And this causes multiclasses to start lagging *badly*. By the time the F/M/T hits level 12, a pure mage would be level 16. This means the F/M/T just got his first level 6 spell, but the pure mage just got his first level 8 spell. And things only get worse from there; under a linear leveling progression, every level-up by the triple class will be accompanied by three levels by the pure class. The pure mage will unlock his 9th-level spells before the triple-class even gains another level, for instance.

By the time the F/M/T gets level 7 arcane spells, the pure mage will have three level 9 spells. By the time the F/M/T earns level 8 spells, (if they even do learn level 8 spells before the end of ToB, which they might not in a full party of 6), the pure mage will have capped out his entire spell progression.

Since high-level mages are the most powerful characters in BG2, this means a F/M/T will go from the most powerful character in the early game to kind of middling later on. Which is fine; Archers make the same transition, for example, and it's totally worth it because of how crazy they are in BG1 and early BG2. It's just that in the end-game, it's better to think of the triple-class as a Fighter/Thief with a few arcane spells than as a full-fledged mage like he was in the early game.

But on the other hand, you need to get thief skills somewhere, and a F/M/T is a decent place to do it. It's going to be one of the more entertaining and reliable classes that can disarm traps.

DrakeICN

Fighter assisting spells like stone skin and mirror image are all pretty low level...

islandking

Anybody knows how a three-class multi distribute exp points? Like when 100exp is gained, only 99 can be used?

islandking

hmm @SomeSort I'm not sure I quite understand your point, f/m/t's selling point is fighter-thief HLAs & arcane assisted physical attacks, which is both destructing and tanky, why compare them to a pure mage, those two surely serve different functions in team

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Lord_Tansheron

FMT is very flexible, and offers thieving skills at a fairly low opportunity cost. At high levels the XP progression isn't great (past geometric), but then again scaling also isn't great at high levels to begin with. Being 20 or 30 or 40 isn't THAT huge of a jump, respectively, and certainly no comparison to 1 vs. 10 vs. 20 to be sure.

Really, it's HLA vs. lvl9 spells for the most part, and the usual MC conundrum of losing out on Grand Mastery. Decide whether UAI and Fighter HLAs is worth it for you, and how grave of a QoL improvement thieving skills are for you (and, I guess, if you like backstabbing).

One argument that can be made is Mislead + Backstab, which I guess pairs nicely with Fighter HLAs. Personally I find that too cheesy for my own taste, but it's impressive damage to be sure. Then again, Mage/Thief can do that, too, but with Black Blade of Disaster...

Souplesse

Ok thank you for ure expertise ! I better understand the multi classes concept!

ThacoBell

@islandking Multiclasses split their experience evenly across all their classes. So if F/T got 100 exp, that would be 50 for each class. This split occurs after the exp is split for the party.

SomeSort

islandking said:

hmm @SomeSort I'm not sure I quite understand your point, f/m/t's selling point is fighter-thief HLAs & arcane assisted physical attacks, which is both destructing and tanky, why compare them to a pure mage, those two surely serve different functions in team

The point I was trying to get at is at lower levels, you actually *will* be somewhat comparable to a pure mage thanks to the geometric scaling. Until level 13 or so, multiclasses get to have their cake and eat it, too, so to speak. They get the best of all worlds at the cost of being just one or two levels behind.

Around the time you're leaving for Spellhold, that'll stop being the case and your mage progression is going to start feeling super slow. Which is fine if all you want is a F/T with arcane support, but if you've gotten used to crazy-good OP flavor that is multiclasses during geometric XP scaling, it can come as a bit of a switch.

Mages are really the only characters who continue to gain noticeable power at higher levels; most of the other classes are just grinding out HLAs, (which Fighters and Thieves are arguably the best at, thanks to Spike Trap and Greater Whirlwind). So that slower progression typically starts feeling frustrating for me. Doesn't make F/M/T a bad character at higher levels, it just makes it more like the Archer kit, where it's really at the peak of its power curve in BG1 / SoD and it starts slowing down to merely "good" late in the game.

tbone1

blackchimes said:

In a party, what is the point of the Thief multiclass though? You'll already have a Thief. Might as well roll a Fighter/Mage.

If you're like me, and I know I am, thieves are only used for traps and locks. This frees up another party slot for another spell caster, tank, etc.

islandking

ThacoBell said:

@islandking Multiclasses split their experience evenly across all their classes. So if F/T got 100 exp, that would be 50 for each class. This split occurs after the exp is split for the party.

Then how do f/m/t split 100 to 3 classes, it's 33.33each, in EEkeeper, a character's exp is shown as a total, so my best guess is that when 100 is added to a 3multi, it's added to total exp, but in-game it shows the rounded down numbers after divided by 3.

Lord_Tansheron

islandking said:

Then how do f/m/t split 100 to 3 classes, it's 33.33each, in EEkeeper, a character's exp is shown as a total, so my best guess is that when 100 is added to a 3multi, it's added to total exp, but in-game it shows the rounded down numbers after divided by 3.

Since it is in fact stored as total XP and then distributed, my guess would be that values are truncated for display purposes, but still effectively stored so nothing is actually lost. Not that single XP digits matter when you're dealing with millions.

islandking

@SomeSort
Why did you say that f/m/t start to fall off after leaving Spellhold, they may not even get a single HLA by then. Their true potential shines with fighter, thief HLAs whose number is greater than any pure class as you progress in levels and their dps is highly depend on them.

BG series, especially in LoB settings where enemies have increased HP and ST, the most reliable damage output comes from physical, not magic, a dual wielding f/m/t is best used with Improved Haste, Critical Strikes/Assassination, not GW and their CS usage numbers will be more than sufficient for the entire fight. Their magic are mostly used for defensive pre-buffs, which saves their battle rounds for activating CS, not healing, for constant physical damage output. They are not used for blasting spells.

Again, there’s really no point compared them to pure magic users who’re better at other staffs.

islandking

Lord_Tansheron said:

Not that single XP digits matter when you're dealing with millions.

The reason I asked is that I was afraid every time a exp number that is not dividable by 3 is gained, a small portion of it will be lost, if that were the case, then the "lost" exp wouldn't be a small number, which would severely weaken all class multis.

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lroumen

XP is not lost but displayed rounded down.
Killed shank 20 XP, shows as 6/6/6. Killed a rat 1 XP, shows as 7/7/7.

Dual classing is the more interesting discussion.

Lord_Tansheron

lroumen said:

Dual classing is the more interesting discussion.

How so, DC never splits anything.

islandking said:

The reason I asked is that I was afraid every time a exp number that is not dividable by 3 is gained, a small portion of it will be lost, if that were the case, then the "lost" exp wouldn't be a small number, which would severely weaken all class multis.

Even if it was on every gain, since the most that could be lost is 2 xp per instance of xp gain you'd still need tens of thousands of instances to make any meaningful impact in BG2, and still hundreds or thousands for it to matter in BG1. Neither is even in the same solar system as "severely weakening" multiclass.

lroumen

I always wondered whether the overshoot of the original class would be considered for the cap or not.

Then again I almost never dual class when it would matter for an exact cap amount

FinneousPJ

@lroumen It does count toward your exp cap yes

Souplesse

Ok and about weapons?!
I though the most effective combo for FMT or FM (without a 25 strength PNJ) is Crom in MH and +1 Apr in OH. island king, you say Crom in OH is better? I don't understand!