@Souplesse Crom in main hand and +Apr in off hand is indeed one of the best setups for a melee character. However do note that Crom cannot be used for backstabs
The off hand is for the secondary effects that you want. For most people that is apr, but for others it is +25 strength, for me it is immunities.
So dependent on what you want with your main hand (to hit effects, backstabbing, damage type, etc), Crom Faeyr can be a nice off hand (for the strength) and may not necessarily be the choice for the main hand.
Ok and about weapons?! I though the most effective combo for FMT or FM (without a 25 strength PNJ) is Crom in MH and +1 Apr in OH. island king, you say Crom in OH is better? I don't understand!
Crom in OH is almost certainly worse, but the exact math depends on various factors. If you are using GWW or circumventing the FA restriction on Haste, then Flail of Ages+5 is probably the best MH (paired with +APR for OH or used alone while GWW). If you are backstabbing, Staff of the Ram+6 is likely the best.
But, again, all these choices depend on a variety of factors, including stats, gear, and party composition.
@Souplesse There’re as many dual combination opinions as many people around, it actually depends on how many dual-wielders you want in your team and their roles in it.
FoA+5 ~Apr+1~CS is built for damaging, this setup suits f/m/t, f/t or f/m well for their defensive buffs ensure they concentrate on damage dealing.
Foebane~Crom~GW is both damaging (25str) and defensive (4hp recovery on hit), it is for your fighter type characters due to their lack of defenses. Crom is also a great MH depending on situations (ie. golems) and there’s a more def oriented OH Eastheaven (combined with Armor of Faith and Hardiness).
Blackrazor MH, this is almost like the precious setup, 15% accumulated str increase, 15% 20hp recovery on hit, beware though, afaik, the level drained victim is disintegrated to death, high chance rendering items UNOBTAINABLE. A workaround is to turn “Gore” setting off, so that’s your choice. There’re many other options as well.
And as @chimaera already mentioned, vorpal weapons are particularly powerful in high difficulty settings. Ravager and Unyielding instakill at10% with no save, both are best used GW two-handed and one-handed respectively, there’s also Silver Sword (25% with save) and summoned planetars have similar vorpal effect.
OH damage is a very small portion of your overall output, as it's hard-capped to 1 APR (2 under IH). The higher your overall APR, the less of it is from your OH. And since its APR are capped, putting more than 1 proficiency point in is not all that useful since it does not benefit at all from the APR bonuses associated with some of the extra pips. It's still a damage gain, of course, but it's so small you are probably better off using it for something else. If you don't have anything else, well, by all means go for it.
My recent f/m/t owned the game from start to finish. I never backstabbed or snuck about even once, just buffed up with wizard spells and let the enemies have it, then disabled the traps on their strongboxes afterwards. Easy peasy.
Crom is usually used in the off-hand because the special effects of Crom on-hit are not that inspiring, all things considered, and all extra attacks are made with the main hand. Assuming we're at the point where Whirlwind and GWW is a thing, that comes down to 9 attacks with the mainhand and 1 with the offhand; Foebane +5 gets you up to 36 free health drain via Larloch's Minor Drains, and if you're using Blackrazor, that's potentially... absolute silliness. Before WWs and GWWs, it's a bit more debatable, since you'll definitely want a speed weapon in the offhand, to get to 8 APR using Improved Haste, though using a weapon that can backstab might be a better idea to abuse Mislead as well.
Something like, I dunno, Celestial Fury + Scarlet Ninja To using Mislead and Improved Haste and probably Spell Immunity: Divination is getting you 8 backstabs per round, probably outdamaging Crom Faeyr + speed weapon.
Crom is usually used in the off-hand because the special effects of Crom on-hit are not that inspiring, all things considered, and all extra attacks are made with the main hand. Assuming we're at the point where Whirlwind and GWW is a thing, that comes down to 9 attacks with the mainhand and 1 with the offhand; Foebane +5 gets you up to 36 free health drain via Larloch's Minor Drains, and if you're using Blackrazor, that's potentially... absolute silliness. Before WWs and GWWs, it's a bit more debatable, since you'll definitely want a speed weapon in the offhand, to get to 8 APR using Improved Haste, though using a weapon that can backstab might be a better idea to abuse Mislead as well.
Something like, I dunno, Celestial Fury + Scarlet Ninja To using Mislead and Improved Haste and probably Spell Immunity: Divination is getting you 8 backstabs per round, probably outdamaging Crom Faeyr + speed weapon.
Crom's damage is actually underrated, though obviously the 25 STR is the big draw (it also adds insane THAC0, don't forget). Crom + APR OH can easily be the highest damage setup, depending on your comp and stats.
GWW is a bit special because you never want to use an OH with it anyway. You want the highest per-hit damage, be it on 1h or 2h (likely FoA+5, but can potentially vary). Unequip any OH while GWW is in effect, then go back to whatever you're using outside of GWW. Note that having 1h/2h mastery will be beneficial for single-wield GWW due to the double crit chance.
Procs may be a concern depending on the situation, both Foebane and Blackrazor that you mentioned are definitely useful to have. There is practically no penalty for on-the-fly weapon switching, so for min/max efficiency you can make use of it.
Note that in terms of pure damage output, it's pretty much mathematically impossible to beat a +APR offhand as the OH choice; however there may be concerns other than pure hit damage, such as special procs or various immunities etc.
Obviously Mislead + BS is another thing entirely and has its own rules in terms of maximizing damage (highest static average damage, i.e. without procs).
@SomeSort Why did you say that f/m/t start to fall off after leaving Spellhold, they may not even get a single HLA by then. Their true potential shines with fighter, thief HLAs whose number is greater than any pure class as you progress in levels and their dps is highly depend on them.
BG series, especially in LoB settings where enemies have increased HP and ST, the most reliable damage output comes from physical, not magic, a dual wielding f/m/t is best used with Improved Haste, Critical Strikes/Assassination, not GW and their CS usage numbers will be more than sufficient for the entire fight. Their magic are mostly used for defensive pre-buffs, which saves their battle rounds for activating CS, not healing, for constant physical damage output. They are not used for blasting spells.
Again, there’s really no point compared them to pure magic users who’re better at other staffs.
The point isn't the specific comparison (F/M/T vs. pure mage). The point is the basic underlying concept: at exponential XP progression levels, adding another class gives you a whole host of benefits with very little cost. At linear XP progression levels, adding another class still gives you the same host of benefits, but the costs begin to rise. Focusing just on the mage aspect is an easy way to illustrate the concept, as "spells per day" is objective and easily calculable.
You can just as easily make the comparison to any other aspect of the F/M/T. Say you consider a F/M/T basically a F/M with some /T levels thrown in for lockpicking, trap detecting, and backstabs. Or you consider it a F/T with the ability to cast Stoneskin and other mage self-buffs. (It sounds like this is the camp you call into.)
At 10,000 XP, a pure fighter will have 17 THACO, a F/T will have 18 THACO, and a F/M/T will have 19 THACO. Not a huge difference. At 500,000 XP, a fighter will have 11 THACO, a F/T will have 12, and a F/M/T will have 13. Again, very close. And then you leave exponential XP scaling and everything changes. At 3m XP, a Fighter will have 1 THACO, a F/T will have 7 THACO, and a F/M/T will have 9 THACO. Basically, from 500k XP (Siege of Dragonspeare to early SoA) to 3m XP (late SoA) the multiclass has gone from a combination that got all of the benefits of the M and T side with very little loss from the fighter side, (just 1 or 2 points of THACO!), to a combination that got some of the benefits of the M and T side with noticeable loss from the fighter side, (6-8 points of THACO!). By late ToB, a F/M/T will have ~4 THACO less than a F/T would.
The same is true of every other aspect of the Fighter class, the Mage class, and the Thief class. When the F/M/T unlocks his bonus 0.5 APR at level 7, a pureclass fighter is still only level 8. Hooray for exponential XP gains! When the F/M/T unlocks his other bonus 0.5 APR at level 13, a pureclass fighter is already level 23. Boo for linear XP gains!
When a F/M/T unlocks his x3 backstab multiplier, a pure-class / two-class thief will be 1 level higher than him. When a F/M/T unlocks his x4 backstab multiplier, a pure-class / two-class thief will be 2 levels higher than him. When a F/M/T unlocks his x5 backstab multiplier, a two-class thief will be three levels higher and a pure-class thief will be six levels higher.
Saving throws, same thing. Weapon proficiencies, same thing, (not a huge deal without access to Grandmastery, though). In BG1 / SoD / early SoA, a multiclass character is a jack of all trades, master of all, thanks to the beauty of exponential XP scaling. In late SoA / ToB, a multiclass character is a jack of all trades, master of none, thanks to linear XP scaling.
This doesn't make the multiclass character bad by any stretch of the imagination. Like you say, there's synergistic bonuses to having all of those components together in one place, like Improved Haste + Stoneskin + Fighter APR bonuses + Assassination. And HLAs start at an XP total instead of a specific level and use a shared pool, so a triple-class character will gain them at roughly the same rate as a single-class or two-class character.
(More specifically: once it hits linear XP scaling, mages will gain one HLA per 375k XP, fighters will gain one per 250k XP, clerics will gain one per 225k XP, and thieves will gain one per 220k XP. Multiclass combinations will gain at the rate of the average of all of their component classes. So a F/M/T will gain one per (375 + 250 + 225)/3, or 283k XP. That's faster than a F/M would, but slower than a F/T would. Indeed, if you check the XP tables, you find that a F/M gets 18 HLAs, a F/M/T finishes with 20, but a F/T would get 23 because it loses those slower mage level-ups, tying C/Ts for the most of any class.)
I'm just saying, if you look at a standard power curve of the classes relative to each other, triple-class characters peak around the time they're leaving for Spellhold. This doesn't mean they're bad later so much as it means they're not as ridiculously OP in late ToB as they were in mid-SoA. In terms of "ridiculous OP-ness", by Throne of Bhaal they get passed by some of the sicker pureclasses and duals.
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
Plz do note that any class with most any stats is able to beat the game. You can play a 13 str 10 dex 9 con beastmaster and still win. So, whatever floats your boat, do that. Even if it is not the best possible build.
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
Plz do note that any class with most any stats is able to beat the game. You can play a 13 str 10 dex 9 con beastmaster and still win. So, whatever floats your boat, do that. Even if it is not the best possible build.
I wonder, akin to the "naked" and "beyond naked" (i.e., wearing only harmfully cursed gear) mages of Diablo 1 and 2 of yesteryear, if someone/people have tried to pull through with the crappiest of characters. I imagine it wouldn't be quite so bad being able to crutch on NPC companions and gear to whatever degree necessary.
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
Plz do note that any class with most any stats is able to beat the game. You can play a 13 str 10 dex 9 con beastmaster and still win. So, whatever floats your boat, do that. Even if it is not the best possible build.
I wonder, akin to the "naked" and "beyond naked" (i.e., wearing only harmfully cursed gear) mages of Diablo 1 and 2 of yesteryear, if someone/people have tried to pull through with the crappiest of characters. I imagine it wouldn't be quite so bad being able to crutch on NPC companions and gear to whatever degree necessary.
I would make a monk in that case. Why? Because monk is a bad class? No, monk is ok. But it is the only fighter class that can get a str of 3. Of course, monks have a lot of unarmed bonuses - so equip a dagger but DO NOT get the proficiency for it (until you have to because you have pipped everywhere else). You will basically play the game as a pacifist.
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
Plz do note that any class with most any stats is able to beat the game. You can play a 13 str 10 dex 9 con beastmaster and still win. So, whatever floats your boat, do that. Even if it is not the best possible build.
I wonder, akin to the "naked" and "beyond naked" (i.e., wearing only harmfully cursed gear) mages of Diablo 1 and 2 of yesteryear, if someone/people have tried to pull through with the crappiest of characters. I imagine it wouldn't be quite so bad being able to crutch on NPC companions and gear to whatever degree necessary.
I would make a monk in that case. Why? Because monk is a bad class? No, monk is ok. But it is the only fighter class that can get a str of 3. Of course, monks have a lot of unarmed bonuses - so equip a dagger but DO NOT get the proficiency for it (until you have to because you have pipped everywhere else). You will basically play the game as a pacifist.
Wouldn't a mage that didn't cast spells and had bad stats be even worse?
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
Plz do note that any class with most any stats is able to beat the game. You can play a 13 str 10 dex 9 con beastmaster and still win. So, whatever floats your boat, do that. Even if it is not the best possible build.
I wonder, akin to the "naked" and "beyond naked" (i.e., wearing only harmfully cursed gear) mages of Diablo 1 and 2 of yesteryear, if someone/people have tried to pull through with the crappiest of characters. I imagine it wouldn't be quite so bad being able to crutch on NPC companions and gear to whatever degree necessary.
I would make a monk in that case. Why? Because monk is a bad class? No, monk is ok. But it is the only fighter class that can get a str of 3. Of course, monks have a lot of unarmed bonuses - so equip a dagger but DO NOT get the proficiency for it (until you have to because you have pipped everywhere else). You will basically play the game as a pacifist.
Wouldn't a mage that didn't cast spells and had bad stats be even worse?
Hmm... I think the idea is that you try your best, given the hand you are dealt. So, a low int mage could stockpile scrolls and then drink purple (or was it red?) potion from Nashkel circus and learn them all in one fell swoop. As intelligence is not a factor for casting spells, and a mage can make do even unarmed (because spells, duh), a low stat mage wouldnt be the worst possible char.
Edit: Of course, because of str gloves and str belts and dex gloves etc etc etc it's actually hard to make a complete shit char, if you play it in earnest. I guess the Havamal saying; "No man is so worthless, he is good for nothing, no man is so great, he never needs help" is true after all?
2nd edit: Actually, now that I think about it, 75 is, I think, the lowest possible roll. Putting 18 in cha (which actually reduce store prices if you are the leader, but whatever), wis and int, you are still left with 7 points in the remaining stats. Thus, reducing one stat to three, force you to put 9 in both the others (or 3 and 15 or whatever). So, there is even a limit to exactly how hard you coould possible suck - and making any stat 3, makes it "vulnerable" to belts etc, while boosting remaining stats.
So, there is even a limit to exactly how hard you coould possible suck - and making any stat 3, makes it "vulnerable" to belts etc, while boosting remaining stats.
Well, no, you don't HAVE to take as many points as you're given, I've started games where I had unallocated stat points.
But it does seem that the minimum a stat is rolled is 6, and the minimum total is 75 after testing in BG2EE with human mage or human thief. The average should be 66 (minimum of 3) or 73.5 (minimum of 6).
2nd edit: Actually, now that I think about it, 75 is, I think, the lowest possible roll. Putting 18 in cha (which actually reduce store prices if you are the leader, but whatever), wis and int, you are still left with 7 points in the remaining stats. Thus, reducing one stat to three, force you to put 9 in both the others (or 3 and 15 or whatever). So, there is even a limit to exactly how hard you coould possible suck - and making any stat 3, makes it "vulnerable" to belts etc, while boosting remaining stats.
The minimum stats a roll will give you is 75, but the minimum you have to assign is determined solely by race and class. You're free to leave points unallocated. I once beat SoA with a halfling F/T who had racial/class minimums in every stat. I was going to follow up by soloing a minimum-stat dwarven bounty hunter, but lost interest partway through chapter 2.
Especially if you aren't using mods, the game is very knowable. It is beatable by a combination of optimal play and optimal builds; the more optimal your play, the less optimal your builds need to be, and the more optimal your builds, the less optimal your play.
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
Plz do note that any class with most any stats is able to beat the game. You can play a 13 str 10 dex 9 con beastmaster and still win. So, whatever floats your boat, do that. Even if it is not the best possible build.
He's literally asking about the mechanics of a F/M/T in the opening post... So yeah, we're throwing crunch at him because that's what he asked for. We're also the community that ended up voting some weird Transmuter/Wizard Slayer hybrid for Crevsdaak and multiple Bounty Hunters to different people. But give the community an optimization question, and we WILL go crazy with the numbers.
Sorry if I didn’t elaborate things earlier, doubly so because I made a mistake in FoA+5~Apr+1~CS line, should be f/m/t, f/t or f/m, not k>t, k>m as those two are NOT good examples with CS factored in, editing right now.
@SomeSort While your numeral data is welcome, your argument still holds no point.
Why compare a f/m/t’s THAC0 to a pure fighter when Mislead Backstabs and Critical Strikes have both been stated above in thread, not to mention fighter’s THAC0 stops scaling from lvl20.
A pure thief’s Backstab multiplier is barely practical for a long time to hit target like a f/m/t, by when, it’ll be the same x5 for everybody, save for Assassin, who is x7, which is a whole different story.
Why compare 2 class multis, that’s not what I quoted you for to begin with, isn’t it? In fact, it should be an interesting read on discussions over f/m/t, f/t, f/m, k>t, k>m or even Swashbucklers serves better and valid comparisons.
It’s good to see you no longer compare f/m/t with pure mages in arcane powers though, that’s a start.
"""""""triple-class characters peak around the time they're leaving for Spellhold"""""" """""""there's synergistic bonuses to having all of those components together in one place, like Improved Haste + Stoneskin + Fighter APR bonuses + Assassination(HLA)"""""" That’s contradiction...........though I’d add Fighter HLAs as well. You still haven’t made a single valid point why f/m/t starts to fall once he gets HLA (or 3m xp).
You also forgot the weapon thing from the very beginning, for comparisons featured f/m/t, that’s…nowhere near making a valid point…
However don’t get me wrong, it’s still a pleasing read on your statistic data, know what, if you haven’t, instead of letting this meaningless debate continue, why not contribute what you know to our universal database, at http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Baldur's_Gate_Wiki like some board members did, or have been doing. All class pages (especially cleric for now) are in desperate need of data upgrade.
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
We don't tell people what to find fun, and expect the same from them. Some people enjoy numbers, others do not. Offering information is generally beneficial, what you make of that information is entirely up to the individual. Nothing you do in a single-player game has an effect on anyone else, so play your way. But that doesn't mean your way is the only way, or that going beyond what your way delves into is not "fun" for someone. No one is forcing you to run with a bleeding-edge min/max dual-class powergaming setup, but knowing what to do when you DO want that is preferable to ignorance on the subject, I think.
However don’t get me wrong, it’s still a pleasing read on your statistic data, know what, if you haven’t, instead of letting this meaningless debate continue, why not contribute what you know to our universal database, at http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Baldur's_Gate_Wiki like some board members did, or have been doing. All class pages (especially cleric for now) are in desperate need of data upgrade.
There's nothing I've said in this thread that isn't already on the class pages on the wiki or else directly derivable from the information that is. (Also, for future reference, "You have yet to come anywhere near making a valid point and this entire debate is meaningless. By the way, please contribute to the wiki!" probably isn't the strongest sales pitch to lead with. )
@SomeSort What I was saying is: I quoted you for your f/m/t-pure mage comparison, which is pointless in everyway, then you brought up 2multis, which is fine, but do compare them without quoting me, please, it’s not like I said something like f/m/t is THE most OP class in game, it’s not.
And when you compare a f/m/t, don’t do it with a pure fighter’s THAC0, because Mislead grants f/m/t a +4 and CS guarantees hit. ~mentioned above~ Don’t do it with a pure thief’s BS multitier because their THAC0 isn’t worth comparing. Don’t do it with a pure mage because………… Your data is welcome, that’s the truth, but the WAY you listed tells everybody a fact, that f/m/t is a hybrid not a specialist, like it’s the first time. ~oohoo
There’s a logic in mentioning Wikia, it’s more a data base than opinions from forums, its multi and dual pages are mostly untouched or even unfound in some cases, and by the time I looked at it, the cleric page doesn’t even have a complete spell progression table! I just think that all those data-upgrading staffs suit you if you’re willing, that’s why I mentioned it, please don’t take it as an offence.
@SomeSort What I was saying is: I quoted you for your f/m/t-pure mage comparison, which is pointless in everyway, then you brought up 2multis, which is fine, but do compare them without quoting me, please, it’s not like I said something like f/m/t is THE most OP class in game, it’s not.
It's not pointless, though. I mean, clearly I wrote a lot of words on the subject because I felt there was a point to be made.
A F/M/T basically has six different component "sub-classes": F, M, T, F/M, F/T, and M/T. In other words, it can be thought of as "a fighter who also has some mage and thief", or "a mage who also has some fighter and thief", or "a thief who also has some fighter and mage", or "a fighter/mage with some thief abilities", or "a fighter/thief with some mage abilities", or "a mage/thief with some fighter abilities".
My point, which is not nonexistent, is that during exponential level-scaling, F/M/T gets to have its cake and eat it, too. Say you largely consider a F/M/T to be an X with some extra Y mixed in. Well, during exponential scaling, a F/M/T will be *almost as good of an X as a pure X would be*, and also gets all that tasty Y for good measure.
At exponential progression, a F/M/T will be almost as good of a F/T as a pure F/T, but will get some extra mage spells. It'll be almost as good of a M/T as a pure M/T, but adds some Fighter THACO and APR. Hell, it'll almost be as good of a pure fighter as a pure fighter, with both the thief and mage aspects added in practically for free!
Now, I originally tried to illustrate this concept using pure mage, since "spell slots" was the quickest and easiest way to show how it works. Not, crucially, because I think F/M/T's closest comparison is a pure mage. And when several posters objected to the pure mage comparison, I repeated it by comparing to pure fighter, and to fighter/thief. I could have compared it to a M/T or a F/M just as easily.
Again, the comparison you make isn't important, use whichever one you want. What's important is that until around the time he has 1m experience points, a F/M/T is almost as good of a _______ as a pure ______ would be, but he also adds in ________ abilities for good measure. Fill in those blanks however you want and it remains true.
The cost of going triple-class during the exponential XP scaling portion of the game is just 1 or 2 levels per class. That is a very small cost! On the other hand, the cost of going triple-class during the linear XP scaling portion of the game is more like a dozen+ levels per class. That is a larger cost!
This doesn't mean that F/M/T is bad in the late game. It means that during exponential scaling, it gets all of its synergistic upsides with very little cost, and during linear scaling it still gets all of its synergistic upsides, but the cost is higher. In linear XP progression, the class combo is "worth the tradeoff". In exponential XP progression, it's more "what tradeoff?"
When I talk about the "power curve" and "falling off", I mean relative to other classes. I think the F/M/T has a really strong argument that it's the single most powerful class in the entire game from BG1, SoD, and early SoA, (until around the time it's leaving for Spellhold). You say yourself it's not the single most powerful class in ToB. Why? Because it's fallen off a bit relative to other classes.
(Again, this was the point of the Archer comparison. Archer is a total game-wrecker in BG1, a beast in early SoA, and merely a decent contributor by ToB. Doesn't make Archer a bad character, but when you're playing an Archer through the series, you're going to feel that power curve as you transition from "one-man destroyer of worlds" to "solid contributor to the party at large". Whereas something like a Monk or a pure-class mage has a power curve that runs exactly opposite.)
Please never forget that a f/m/t has access to traps (with and without HLA) and detect illusions. Spike traps are totally powerful and cheesy and with detect illusions there will be no more need of True Vision. Easy Example: hidden mage -> hide in shadow -> use detect illusions against him -> backstab -> almost sure death.
And this is basic, something simple for a character that can do almost everything (is it obvious that it is my favourite class? )
Comments
So dependent on what you want with your main hand (to hit effects, backstabbing, damage type, etc), Crom Faeyr can be a nice off hand (for the strength) and may not necessarily be the choice for the main hand.
If you are using GWW or circumventing the FA restriction on Haste, then Flail of Ages+5 is probably the best MH (paired with +APR for OH or used alone while GWW).
If you are backstabbing, Staff of the Ram+6 is likely the best.
But, again, all these choices depend on a variety of factors, including stats, gear, and party composition.
There’re as many dual combination opinions as many people around, it actually depends on how many dual-wielders you want in your team and their roles in it.
FoA+5 ~Apr+1~CS is built for damaging, this setup suits f/m/t, f/t or f/m well for their defensive buffs ensure they concentrate on damage dealing.
Foebane~Crom~GW is both damaging (25str) and defensive (4hp recovery on hit), it is for your fighter type characters due to their lack of defenses. Crom is also a great MH depending on situations (ie. golems) and there’s a more def oriented OH Eastheaven (combined with Armor of Faith and Hardiness).
Blackrazor MH, this is almost like the precious setup, 15% accumulated str increase, 15% 20hp recovery on hit, beware though, afaik, the level drained victim is disintegrated to death, high chance rendering items UNOBTAINABLE. A workaround is to turn “Gore” setting off, so that’s your choice.
There’re many other options as well.
And as @chimaera already mentioned, vorpal weapons are particularly powerful in high difficulty settings.
Ravager and Unyielding instakill at10% with no save, both are best used GW two-handed and one-handed respectively, there’s also Silver Sword (25% with save) and summoned planetars have similar vorpal effect.
Something like, I dunno, Celestial Fury + Scarlet Ninja To using Mislead and Improved Haste and probably Spell Immunity: Divination is getting you 8 backstabs per round, probably outdamaging Crom Faeyr + speed weapon.
GWW is a bit special because you never want to use an OH with it anyway. You want the highest per-hit damage, be it on 1h or 2h (likely FoA+5, but can potentially vary). Unequip any OH while GWW is in effect, then go back to whatever you're using outside of GWW. Note that having 1h/2h mastery will be beneficial for single-wield GWW due to the double crit chance.
Procs may be a concern depending on the situation, both Foebane and Blackrazor that you mentioned are definitely useful to have. There is practically no penalty for on-the-fly weapon switching, so for min/max efficiency you can make use of it.
Note that in terms of pure damage output, it's pretty much mathematically impossible to beat a +APR offhand as the OH choice; however there may be concerns other than pure hit damage, such as special procs or various immunities etc.
Obviously Mislead + BS is another thing entirely and has its own rules in terms of maximizing damage (highest static average damage, i.e. without procs).
You can just as easily make the comparison to any other aspect of the F/M/T. Say you consider a F/M/T basically a F/M with some /T levels thrown in for lockpicking, trap detecting, and backstabs. Or you consider it a F/T with the ability to cast Stoneskin and other mage self-buffs. (It sounds like this is the camp you call into.)
At 10,000 XP, a pure fighter will have 17 THACO, a F/T will have 18 THACO, and a F/M/T will have 19 THACO. Not a huge difference. At 500,000 XP, a fighter will have 11 THACO, a F/T will have 12, and a F/M/T will have 13. Again, very close. And then you leave exponential XP scaling and everything changes. At 3m XP, a Fighter will have 1 THACO, a F/T will have 7 THACO, and a F/M/T will have 9 THACO. Basically, from 500k XP (Siege of Dragonspeare to early SoA) to 3m XP (late SoA) the multiclass has gone from a combination that got all of the benefits of the M and T side with very little loss from the fighter side, (just 1 or 2 points of THACO!), to a combination that got some of the benefits of the M and T side with noticeable loss from the fighter side, (6-8 points of THACO!). By late ToB, a F/M/T will have ~4 THACO less than a F/T would.
The same is true of every other aspect of the Fighter class, the Mage class, and the Thief class. When the F/M/T unlocks his bonus 0.5 APR at level 7, a pureclass fighter is still only level 8. Hooray for exponential XP gains! When the F/M/T unlocks his other bonus 0.5 APR at level 13, a pureclass fighter is already level 23. Boo for linear XP gains!
When a F/M/T unlocks his x3 backstab multiplier, a pure-class / two-class thief will be 1 level higher than him. When a F/M/T unlocks his x4 backstab multiplier, a pure-class / two-class thief will be 2 levels higher than him. When a F/M/T unlocks his x5 backstab multiplier, a two-class thief will be three levels higher and a pure-class thief will be six levels higher.
Saving throws, same thing. Weapon proficiencies, same thing, (not a huge deal without access to Grandmastery, though). In BG1 / SoD / early SoA, a multiclass character is a jack of all trades, master of all, thanks to the beauty of exponential XP scaling. In late SoA / ToB, a multiclass character is a jack of all trades, master of none, thanks to linear XP scaling.
This doesn't make the multiclass character bad by any stretch of the imagination. Like you say, there's synergistic bonuses to having all of those components together in one place, like Improved Haste + Stoneskin + Fighter APR bonuses + Assassination. And HLAs start at an XP total instead of a specific level and use a shared pool, so a triple-class character will gain them at roughly the same rate as a single-class or two-class character.
(More specifically: once it hits linear XP scaling, mages will gain one HLA per 375k XP, fighters will gain one per 250k XP, clerics will gain one per 225k XP, and thieves will gain one per 220k XP. Multiclass combinations will gain at the rate of the average of all of their component classes. So a F/M/T will gain one per (375 + 250 + 225)/3, or 283k XP. That's faster than a F/M would, but slower than a F/T would. Indeed, if you check the XP tables, you find that a F/M gets 18 HLAs, a F/M/T finishes with 20, but a F/T would get 23 because it loses those slower mage level-ups, tying C/Ts for the most of any class.)
I'm just saying, if you look at a standard power curve of the classes relative to each other, triple-class characters peak around the time they're leaving for Spellhold. This doesn't mean they're bad later so much as it means they're not as ridiculously OP in late ToB as they were in mid-SoA. In terms of "ridiculous OP-ness", by Throne of Bhaal they get passed by some of the sicker pureclasses and duals.
Do you people ever play the game for fun, or is it just crunching numbers?
Plz do note that any class with most any stats is able to beat the game. You can play a 13 str 10 dex 9 con beastmaster and still win. So, whatever floats your boat, do that. Even if it is not the best possible build.
Edit: Of course, because of str gloves and str belts and dex gloves etc etc etc it's actually hard to make a complete shit char, if you play it in earnest. I guess the Havamal saying;
"No man is so worthless, he is good for nothing, no man is so great, he never needs help" is true after all?
2nd edit: Actually, now that I think about it, 75 is, I think, the lowest possible roll. Putting 18 in cha (which actually reduce store prices if you are the leader, but whatever), wis and int, you are still left with 7 points in the remaining stats. Thus, reducing one stat to three, force you to put 9 in both the others (or 3 and 15 or whatever). So, there is even a limit to exactly how hard you coould possible suck - and making any stat 3, makes it "vulnerable" to belts etc, while boosting remaining stats.
But it does seem that the minimum a stat is rolled is 6, and the minimum total is 75 after testing in BG2EE with human mage or human thief. The average should be 66 (minimum of 3) or 73.5 (minimum of 6).
Especially if you aren't using mods, the game is very knowable. It is beatable by a combination of optimal play and optimal builds; the more optimal your play, the less optimal your builds need to be, and the more optimal your builds, the less optimal your play.
While your numeral data is welcome, your argument still holds no point.
Why compare a f/m/t’s THAC0 to a pure fighter when Mislead Backstabs and Critical Strikes have both been stated above in thread, not to mention fighter’s THAC0 stops scaling from lvl20.
A pure thief’s Backstab multiplier is barely practical for a long time to hit target like a f/m/t, by when, it’ll be the same x5 for everybody, save for Assassin, who is x7, which is a whole different story.
Why compare 2 class multis, that’s not what I quoted you for to begin with, isn’t it? In fact, it should be an interesting read on discussions over f/m/t, f/t, f/m, k>t, k>m or even Swashbucklers serves better and valid comparisons.
It’s good to see you no longer compare f/m/t with pure mages in arcane powers though, that’s a start.
"""""""triple-class characters peak around the time they're leaving for Spellhold""""""
"""""""there's synergistic bonuses to having all of those components together in one place, like Improved Haste + Stoneskin + Fighter APR bonuses + Assassination(HLA)""""""
That’s contradiction...........though I’d add Fighter HLAs as well. You still haven’t made a single valid point why f/m/t starts to fall once he gets HLA (or 3m xp).
You also forgot the weapon thing from the very beginning, for comparisons featured f/m/t, that’s…nowhere near making a valid point…
However don’t get me wrong, it’s still a pleasing read on your statistic data, know what, if you haven’t, instead of letting this meaningless debate continue, why not contribute what you know to our universal database, at http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Baldur's_Gate_Wiki like some board members did, or have been doing. All class pages (especially cleric for now) are in desperate need of data upgrade.
What I was saying is: I quoted you for your f/m/t-pure mage comparison, which is pointless in everyway, then you brought up 2multis, which is fine, but do compare them without quoting me, please, it’s not like I said something like f/m/t is THE most OP class in game, it’s not.
And when you compare a f/m/t, don’t do it with a pure fighter’s THAC0, because Mislead grants f/m/t a +4 and CS guarantees hit. ~mentioned above~
Don’t do it with a pure thief’s BS multitier because their THAC0 isn’t worth comparing.
Don’t do it with a pure mage because…………
Your data is welcome, that’s the truth, but the WAY you listed tells everybody a fact, that f/m/t is a hybrid not a specialist, like it’s the first time. ~oohoo
There’s a logic in mentioning Wikia, it’s more a data base than opinions from forums, its multi and dual pages are mostly untouched or even unfound in some cases, and by the time I looked at it, the cleric page doesn’t even have a complete spell progression table! I just think that all those data-upgrading staffs suit you if you’re willing, that’s why I mentioned it, please don’t take it as an offence.
A F/M/T basically has six different component "sub-classes": F, M, T, F/M, F/T, and M/T. In other words, it can be thought of as "a fighter who also has some mage and thief", or "a mage who also has some fighter and thief", or "a thief who also has some fighter and mage", or "a fighter/mage with some thief abilities", or "a fighter/thief with some mage abilities", or "a mage/thief with some fighter abilities".
My point, which is not nonexistent, is that during exponential level-scaling, F/M/T gets to have its cake and eat it, too. Say you largely consider a F/M/T to be an X with some extra Y mixed in. Well, during exponential scaling, a F/M/T will be *almost as good of an X as a pure X would be*, and also gets all that tasty Y for good measure.
At exponential progression, a F/M/T will be almost as good of a F/T as a pure F/T, but will get some extra mage spells. It'll be almost as good of a M/T as a pure M/T, but adds some Fighter THACO and APR. Hell, it'll almost be as good of a pure fighter as a pure fighter, with both the thief and mage aspects added in practically for free!
Now, I originally tried to illustrate this concept using pure mage, since "spell slots" was the quickest and easiest way to show how it works. Not, crucially, because I think F/M/T's closest comparison is a pure mage. And when several posters objected to the pure mage comparison, I repeated it by comparing to pure fighter, and to fighter/thief. I could have compared it to a M/T or a F/M just as easily.
Again, the comparison you make isn't important, use whichever one you want. What's important is that until around the time he has 1m experience points, a F/M/T is almost as good of a _______ as a pure ______ would be, but he also adds in ________ abilities for good measure. Fill in those blanks however you want and it remains true.
The cost of going triple-class during the exponential XP scaling portion of the game is just 1 or 2 levels per class. That is a very small cost! On the other hand, the cost of going triple-class during the linear XP scaling portion of the game is more like a dozen+ levels per class. That is a larger cost!
This doesn't mean that F/M/T is bad in the late game. It means that during exponential scaling, it gets all of its synergistic upsides with very little cost, and during linear scaling it still gets all of its synergistic upsides, but the cost is higher. In linear XP progression, the class combo is "worth the tradeoff". In exponential XP progression, it's more "what tradeoff?"
When I talk about the "power curve" and "falling off", I mean relative to other classes. I think the F/M/T has a really strong argument that it's the single most powerful class in the entire game from BG1, SoD, and early SoA, (until around the time it's leaving for Spellhold). You say yourself it's not the single most powerful class in ToB. Why? Because it's fallen off a bit relative to other classes.
(Again, this was the point of the Archer comparison. Archer is a total game-wrecker in BG1, a beast in early SoA, and merely a decent contributor by ToB. Doesn't make Archer a bad character, but when you're playing an Archer through the series, you're going to feel that power curve as you transition from "one-man destroyer of worlds" to "solid contributor to the party at large". Whereas something like a Monk or a pure-class mage has a power curve that runs exactly opposite.)
Spike traps are totally powerful and cheesy and with detect illusions there will be no more need of True Vision.
Easy Example: hidden mage -> hide in shadow -> use detect illusions against him -> backstab -> almost sure death.
And this is basic, something simple for a character that can do almost everything (is it obvious that it is my favourite class?