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Shar-Teel Dual Class Question - Grandmastery No Longer Obtainable?

HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
Referencing Closed Thread:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/10160/that-shar-teel-of-a-mess/p4

Kind of torn about which other Wep to take at Level 1 Thief. Crossbow is obvious for me. Was thinking Shortbow for the heck of it since Dorn has Longbows... but Club might make more sense as a quick switch for Skeleton combat or anything with non-crush resist. Not sure it matters but figured I'd toss it out there.

She's looking like this (Sword Build - Dual-Classing at level 7 Fighter to gain 1 attack vs. the x4 Backstab)

Longsword +++++
Two-Weapon Style ++
Dagger +
Crossbow +
Club OR Shortbow +

Opinions?

UPDATE:

So I dualed Shar-Teel after hitting 7th level fighter (3 pips in Longsword) Just got to 70k EXP after hitting 3rd level thief. Did *not* level up after 3rd level thief. Leveled up to 8th level. Got my 2 pips, got my 125 points in thieving skills, however I can only put 1 more pip in Longswords (taking it to 4). It asks me to put the final pip elsewhere.

Just tried this in EEKeeper (By giving her 64k, Dualing, and then giving her 70k)... Still not doable. She'll only take 1 more pip in Longswords.

This may be a bug... the "+" sign is not grayed out, however I cannot increase past 4. If this was by design, I'd think that the increase past 4 would show the normal grayed out plus?
Post edited by HaHaCharade on

Comments

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761

    Referencing Closed Thread:

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/10160/that-shar-teel-of-a-mess/p4

    Kind of torn about which other Wep to take at Level 1 Thief. Crossbow is obvious for me. Was thinking Shortbow for the heck of it since Dorn has Longbows... but Club might make more sense as a quick switch for Skeleton combat or anything with non-crush resist. Not sure it matters but figured I'd toss it out there.

    She's looking like this (Sword Build - Dual-Classing at level 7 Fighter to gain 1 attack vs. the x4 Backstab)

    Longsword +++++
    Two-Weapon Style ++
    Dagger +
    Crossbow +
    Club OR Shortbow +

    Opinions?

    So as I understand it, you take Shar-Teel at level 2 (+ longswords, + dagger, ++ TWS), level her to seven with her level 3 and level 6 pips both going into long swords, then dual-class her to thief. You then level her to thief level 3 as normal, but save your level 4, 5, 6, and 7 level-ups until you have enough to go directly to level 8. This lets you assign two more proficiency points to get her to Grandmastery in long swords.

    That's... some dedication! 64,000 XP before dualing, plus 70,000 XP after dualing (67,500 of it spent "saving" available level-ups). On the other hand, it's definitely the most powerful Shar-Teel build you're going to be able to do.

    Since you're obviously looking to milk every single ounce of power possible, both Shortbow + Crossbow seems counterproductive, so I'd pick one or the other. (I'd typically go Shortbow over Crossbow because I think the ammo is better and Eagle Bow gives better bonuses than Light Crossbow of Speed, but I understand going Crossbow if Dorn already has Longbows just to avoid ammo competition.)

    On the other hand, Darts would be a solid choice to give you access to darts of stunning and darts of wounding. Also, during your (long) life as a level 3 thief, elemental darts will probably deal more damage than LCoS because of the extra APR, which helps with your crummy THACO.

    If you'd rather have a crushing option to deal with skeletons, I'd probably go quarterstaff over club; the situations warranting a switch would be pretty rare, and you could end them more quickly with the Staff of Striking than any club. Plus Staff of Striking makes a better backstab weapon.
    HaHaCharade
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    edited April 10
    SomeSort said:

    Referencing Closed Thread:

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/10160/that-shar-teel-of-a-mess/p4

    Kind of torn about which other Wep to take at Level 1 Thief. Crossbow is obvious for me. Was thinking Shortbow for the heck of it since Dorn has Longbows... but Club might make more sense as a quick switch for Skeleton combat or anything with non-crush resist. Not sure it matters but figured I'd toss it out there.

    She's looking like this (Sword Build - Dual-Classing at level 7 Fighter to gain 1 attack vs. the x4 Backstab)

    Longsword +++++
    Two-Weapon Style ++
    Dagger +
    Crossbow +
    Club OR Shortbow +

    Opinions?

    So as I understand it, you take Shar-Teel at level 2 (+ longswords, + dagger, ++ TWS), level her to seven with her level 3 and level 6 pips both going into long swords, then dual-class her to thief. You then level her to thief level 3 as normal, but save your level 4, 5, 6, and 7 level-ups until you have enough to go directly to level 8. This lets you assign two more proficiency points to get her to Grandmastery in long swords.

    That's... some dedication! 64,000 XP before dualing, plus 70,000 XP after dualing (67,500 of it spent "saving" available level-ups). On the other hand, it's definitely the most powerful Shar-Teel build you're going to be able to do.

    Since you're obviously looking to milk every single ounce of power possible, both Shortbow + Crossbow seems counterproductive, so I'd pick one or the other. (I'd typically go Shortbow over Crossbow because I think the ammo is better and Eagle Bow gives better bonuses than Light Crossbow of Speed, but I understand going Crossbow if Dorn already has Longbows just to avoid ammo competition.)

    On the other hand, Darts would be a solid choice to give you access to darts of stunning and darts of wounding. Also, during your (long) life as a level 3 thief, elemental darts will probably deal more damage than LCoS because of the extra APR, which helps with your crummy THACO.

    If you'd rather have a crushing option to deal with skeletons, I'd probably go quarterstaff over club; the situations warranting a switch would be pretty rare, and you could end them more quickly with the Staff of Striking than any club. Plus Staff of Striking makes a better backstab weapon.

    Thanks for the analysis! Root of the Problem (+3 Club vs. Unnatural) was the only reason I was thinking club... Staff of Striking is pretty beefy. Its Two-Handed though, so 1-Handed Club will also get her Styles bonus, and an off-hand attack.

    Yeah two missile weapons is a bit pointless, agreed.

    If you camp out at the lighthouse and kill 3 sirens a time (random encounter) that's 6,000 exp per battle and your Thief level shoots off like a rocket. For even quicker, you can dump other party members temporarily. So the dedication isn't too bad :)
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Really its a pointless convo, lol. I highly doubt I'll take the time to switch her from Swords or Crossbow, but just curious what people use the pretty much "wasted" slot for. She's certainly the most skilled NPC fighter in the game with all those profs. Suits her I suppose, given her bloodthirsty ways.
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    edited April 14
    So I dualed Shar-Teel after hitting 7th level fighter (3 pips in Longsword) Just got to 70k EXP after hitting 3rd level thief. Did *not* level up after 3rd level thief. Leveled up to 8th level. Got my 2 pips, got my 125 points in thieving skills, however I can only put 1 more pip in Longswords (taking it to 4). It asks me to put the final pip elsewhere. Something changed in BG:EE since this was doable? Or I do something wrong? Not sure if @JuliusBorisov knows since you've examined the science of Shar-Teel in the past.
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Just tried this in EEKeeper (By giving her 64k, Dualing, and then giving her 70k)... Still not doable. She'll only take 1 more pip in Longswords.
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    This may be a bug... the "+" sign is not grayed out, however I cannot increase past 4. If this was by design, I'd think that the increase past 4 would show the normal grayed out plus?
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 262
    I actually suspect that fighter 9 might be required to get grandmastery, or at least main level 9. Since the standard progression is 2 max during character creation, 2 more at 3 and 6, Fighters get GM at best by level 9. Now, I recall that in the original BG2 they ignored this limit and erroneously allowed creation of characters with GM at level 8, so I think they might've added a check that enforces level 9 before GM's a possibility.
    HaHaCharade
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,947

    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.

    ever since the 2.x patch I believe they have made it so if you want to place more than 1 proficiency in a weapon you need to be the minimum level a fighter would be to have that many proficiency points, so if you dual at level 7 the max level you are going to hit in bg1 is 8 and you need to be level 9, because you can place that last proficiency point in

    so if you really want 5 proficiency points you will need to dual at level 6 and then wait until you get enough XP to hit a level 9 thief, and then you should be able to place 5 proficiencies in your weapon, and even though you don't get the base 1.5 attacks per round, you still get the weapon speed and extra damage of having 5 proficiencies plus you will still have 2 attacks per round from the 5 proficiencies and level 9 thief is a saving throw level ( which makes up for losing the level 7 fighter saving throw level)
    HaHaCharadecreateaccountGreenWarlock
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    sarevok57 said:

    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.

    ever since the 2.x patch I believe they have made it so if you want to place more than 1 proficiency in a weapon you need to be the minimum level a fighter would be to have that many proficiency points, so if you dual at level 7 the max level you are going to hit in bg1 is 8 and you need to be level 9, because you can place that last proficiency point in

    so if you really want 5 proficiency points you will need to dual at level 6 and then wait until you get enough XP to hit a level 9 thief, and then you should be able to place 5 proficiencies in your weapon, and even though you don't get the base 1.5 attacks per round, you still get the weapon speed and extra damage of having 5 proficiencies plus you will still have 2 attacks per round from the 5 proficiencies and level 9 thief is a saving throw level ( which makes up for losing the level 7 fighter saving throw level)
    FML
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,947

    sarevok57 said:

    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.

    ever since the 2.x patch I believe they have made it so if you want to place more than 1 proficiency in a weapon you need to be the minimum level a fighter would be to have that many proficiency points, so if you dual at level 7 the max level you are going to hit in bg1 is 8 and you need to be level 9, because you can place that last proficiency point in

    so if you really want 5 proficiency points you will need to dual at level 6 and then wait until you get enough XP to hit a level 9 thief, and then you should be able to place 5 proficiencies in your weapon, and even though you don't get the base 1.5 attacks per round, you still get the weapon speed and extra damage of having 5 proficiencies plus you will still have 2 attacks per round from the 5 proficiencies and level 9 thief is a saving throw level ( which makes up for losing the level 7 fighter saving throw level)
    FML
    yuppers no more level 7/8 fighter dual class thieves getting 5 proficiency points in bg1

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    sarevok57 said:

    sarevok57 said:

    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.

    ever since the 2.x patch I believe they have made it so if you want to place more than 1 proficiency in a weapon you need to be the minimum level a fighter would be to have that many proficiency points, so if you dual at level 7 the max level you are going to hit in bg1 is 8 and you need to be level 9, because you can place that last proficiency point in

    so if you really want 5 proficiency points you will need to dual at level 6 and then wait until you get enough XP to hit a level 9 thief, and then you should be able to place 5 proficiencies in your weapon, and even though you don't get the base 1.5 attacks per round, you still get the weapon speed and extra damage of having 5 proficiencies plus you will still have 2 attacks per round from the 5 proficiencies and level 9 thief is a saving throw level ( which makes up for losing the level 7 fighter saving throw level)
    FML
    yuppers no more level 7/8 fighter dual class thieves getting 5 proficiency points in bg1

    6/9 is fine... like you said you get the 5 pips, the extra attack from Grand Mastery, and you get x4 Backstab instead of x3. What sucks is the time I wasted. :smile:
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,947

    sarevok57 said:

    sarevok57 said:

    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.

    ever since the 2.x patch I believe they have made it so if you want to place more than 1 proficiency in a weapon you need to be the minimum level a fighter would be to have that many proficiency points, so if you dual at level 7 the max level you are going to hit in bg1 is 8 and you need to be level 9, because you can place that last proficiency point in

    so if you really want 5 proficiency points you will need to dual at level 6 and then wait until you get enough XP to hit a level 9 thief, and then you should be able to place 5 proficiencies in your weapon, and even though you don't get the base 1.5 attacks per round, you still get the weapon speed and extra damage of having 5 proficiencies plus you will still have 2 attacks per round from the 5 proficiencies and level 9 thief is a saving throw level ( which makes up for losing the level 7 fighter saving throw level)
    FML
    yuppers no more level 7/8 fighter dual class thieves getting 5 proficiency points in bg1

    6/9 is fine... like you said you get the 5 pips, the extra attack from Grand Mastery, and you get x4 Backstab instead of x3. What sucks is the time I wasted. :smile:
    this is when EE keeper is your friend :)

    HaHaCharade
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    sarevok57 said:

    sarevok57 said:

    sarevok57 said:

    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.

    ever since the 2.x patch I believe they have made it so if you want to place more than 1 proficiency in a weapon you need to be the minimum level a fighter would be to have that many proficiency points, so if you dual at level 7 the max level you are going to hit in bg1 is 8 and you need to be level 9, because you can place that last proficiency point in

    so if you really want 5 proficiency points you will need to dual at level 6 and then wait until you get enough XP to hit a level 9 thief, and then you should be able to place 5 proficiencies in your weapon, and even though you don't get the base 1.5 attacks per round, you still get the weapon speed and extra damage of having 5 proficiencies plus you will still have 2 attacks per round from the 5 proficiencies and level 9 thief is a saving throw level ( which makes up for losing the level 7 fighter saving throw level)
    FML
    yuppers no more level 7/8 fighter dual class thieves getting 5 proficiency points in bg1

    6/9 is fine... like you said you get the 5 pips, the extra attack from Grand Mastery, and you get x4 Backstab instead of x3. What sucks is the time I wasted. :smile:
    this is when EE keeper is your friend :)

    Yeah... I just feel like a fiend doing it, lol.
    sarevok57
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    SomeSort said:

    Referencing Closed Thread:

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/10160/that-shar-teel-of-a-mess/p4

    Kind of torn about which other Wep to take at Level 1 Thief. Crossbow is obvious for me. Was thinking Shortbow for the heck of it since Dorn has Longbows... but Club might make more sense as a quick switch for Skeleton combat or anything with non-crush resist. Not sure it matters but figured I'd toss it out there.

    She's looking like this (Sword Build - Dual-Classing at level 7 Fighter to gain 1 attack vs. the x4 Backstab)

    Longsword +++++
    Two-Weapon Style ++
    Dagger +
    Crossbow +
    Club OR Shortbow +

    Opinions?

    So as I understand it, you take Shar-Teel at level 2 (+ longswords, + dagger, ++ TWS), level her to seven with her level 3 and level 6 pips both going into long swords, then dual-class her to thief. You then level her to thief level 3 as normal, but save your level 4, 5, 6, and 7 level-ups until you have enough to go directly to level 8. This lets you assign two more proficiency points to get her to Grandmastery in long swords.

    That's... some dedication! 64,000 XP before dualing, plus 70,000 XP after dualing (67,500 of it spent "saving" available level-ups). On the other hand, it's definitely the most powerful Shar-Teel build you're going to be able to do.

    Since you're obviously looking to milk every single ounce of power possible, both Shortbow + Crossbow seems counterproductive, so I'd pick one or the other. (I'd typically go Shortbow over Crossbow because I think the ammo is better and Eagle Bow gives better bonuses than Light Crossbow of Speed, but I understand going Crossbow if Dorn already has Longbows just to avoid ammo competition.)

    On the other hand, Darts would be a solid choice to give you access to darts of stunning and darts of wounding. Also, during your (long) life as a level 3 thief, elemental darts will probably deal more damage than LCoS because of the extra APR, which helps with your crummy THACO.

    If you'd rather have a crushing option to deal with skeletons, I'd probably go quarterstaff over club; the situations warranting a switch would be pretty rare, and you could end them more quickly with the Staff of Striking than any club. Plus Staff of Striking makes a better backstab weapon.
    So the answer is -- Single Weapon Style :smile: That way when you backstab with her, you get a crit on 19 or 20 (and +1 AC until you throw her second sword in its slot, after the backstab).

    Stack that at 1st level Thief level up with a missle weapon of your choice (Bow or Crossbow) and away you go.

    6th Level Fighter / 9th Level Thief. 3 Attacks per round. x4 Backstab Mutliplier. 5 pips Longsword, 2 Pips Two-Weapon Style, 1 Pip Single Weapon Style, 1 Pip Crossbow, 1 Pip Dagger.

    That's my build. She gets more Weps than an Amnish Army.
    Aerakar
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    edited April 26
    sarevok57 said:

    Maybe one of the devs can comment if this change was intentional or not... Seems like it used to not be in effect.

    ever since the 2.x patch I believe they have made it so if you want to place more than 1 proficiency in a weapon you need to be the minimum level a fighter would be to have that many proficiency points, so if you dual at level 7 the max level you are going to hit in bg1 is 8 and you need to be level 9, because you can place that last proficiency point in

    so if you really want 5 proficiency points you will need to dual at level 6 and then wait until you get enough XP to hit a level 9 thief, and then you should be able to place 5 proficiencies in your weapon, and even though you don't get the base 1.5 attacks per round, you still get the weapon speed and extra damage of having 5 proficiencies plus you will still have 2 attacks per round from the 5 proficiencies and level 9 thief is a saving throw level ( which makes up for losing the level 7 fighter saving throw level)
    Hey @Saerevok - Taking the above into account, couldn't you complete the dual at 7th level thief. Since you dualed at 6th level fighter. Or as far as you know, can you not give her grandmastery unless you wait all the way to 9th before hitting level?

    EDIT: Disregard, I tried it using EEKeeper and going up a level at a time. Doesn't work.
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,377
    Check profsmax.2da. (I think. Or maybe it's profs.2da. One of those.)

    Nobody can get GM until they hit level 9. This is actually correct per the 2E rules... getting GM early as a dual-class was always a bug. (In fact I think under the rules you can't get GM until level 12... so BG is still being very generous with you here.)

    Of course you can edit that file if you want to change the rules and get GM earlier...
    HaHaCharadeThacoBelltypo_tilly
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    edited April 26

    Check profsmax.2da. (I think. Or maybe it's profs.2da. One of those.)

    Nobody can get GM until they hit level 9. This is actually correct per the 2E rules... getting GM early as a dual-class was always a bug. (In fact I think under the rules you can't get GM until level 12... so BG is still being very generous with you here.)

    Of course you can edit that file if you want to change the rules and get GM earlier...

    Makes sense.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 303
    edited April 26
    It's a throwback from the original game. In vanilla BG there was nothing capping it for fighters and taking just one level in fighter let you abuse this in dual classes.

    I know I used to leave BG with Grand Mastery and xp maxed out for having TotSC installed on the vanilla games because of the number of starting pips you get plus putting one in every appropriate level after that. (it's like level 7 you used to be able to put in the last one.) Because of the starting pips I'd usually have two pips in my chosen style for that particular character as well. But I usually have planned out if they are my sword and shield tank or my two handed damage dealer, or rarely my dual wielder or for RP reasons single handed weapon master. So it was always easy to plan that way.

    For me however since I don't really dual class it's not been a big issue. Just took a little adjusting to have to put my pips somewhere else at level 3. Of course this is after I click my chosen weapon a couple times at that level before remembering that I can't put it there. It's not a huge deal and thanks to SoD it's a complete wash by the time you get into BGII. Two levels is not really a lost in the long run. though it does affect powergaming slightly in some of the hardest end game fights of BG itself.
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