Well then. Remind me again, why would I ever dual class. Or better - why would I ever single class at all?
I'm exaggerating, but still. In case of a F/M/T, that means the Fighter class will get first HLA at level 13. Level 13! That's only 2/3 towards unlocking the class' full potential.
That's not really a High Level Ability anymore, is it...
HLAs are often (but not always) overrated. Many of the most powerful abilities are actually low/mid-level spells (e.g. Improved Haste, DuHM, Stoneskin, etc.) or inherent abilities (e.g. Grand Mastery, kit bonuses like Berserker Rage).
That's not to say HLAs are bad. Not at all. Many of them are really good. But they're often not the earth-shattering cosmos-sundering I-WIN-buttons people sometimes seem to think they are.
The dual vs. multi debate has twelve dozen moving parts, each of which works upon all the others. It can be very difficult to decide what is "optimal" in a given setup and under a given set of personal preferences. While I always encourage people to think about their choices before making them, they should also be aware that for many people it just won't matter very much. Once you start getting into the fine fine FINE details, you would need a game of truly epic difficulty to actually even see those distinctions have a noticeable effect. For most people, either will do just fine.
The main difference between a dual and a multi is that, for class combination X/Y, the dual is a strong Y that happens to be able to do a couple things from X, while the multi is actually the mix between X and Y, but with the downside that you won't be as strong at Y as the dual.
So the F/C dual class functions mostly as a cleric late game, having the capacity to either destroy or command lichs, layering defensive buffs for your entire team, getting spells in BG2 at a relatively appropriate time. The downside is that you're basically hard-capped at 4 APR which isn't all that bad after improved haste anyways, and lacking Warrior HLAs, and you're not a Dwarf. You're NOT going to be a warrior on par with Sarevok or Mazzy by the endgame, but for the majority of SoA you're going to be at least close to them, and by ToB you're a fully functioning cleric that can still deal with a couple mooks.
On the other hand, the F/C multi is going to level significantly slower, and it'll seem weaker during SoA due to lack of Grand Mastery. You'll never have the levels to do anything meaningful with Turn Undead, as anything that can be turned by your lower Cleric level is kinda pathetic anyways (Shades and such.) They come into their own later, since they'll have the better saving throw table (if running a shorty,) the capability of being immune to physical damage (armor of faith, Hardiness, defender of Easthaven), as well as more HLAs and the entire warrior pool of HLAs.
I'm going to suggest going for a Beastmaster -> Cleric dual at level 10 or 13 to get Summon Animal I and II as level 1 and 2 spells respectively, and if you go all the way to 13, the extra half-attack. Note that dualing at 13 takes almost 3m experience to reclaim, so I'd recommend dualing at level 10.
You've got it backwards. Multiclasses start getting HLAs at 3m *combined* experience, (e.g. 1.5m experience in each class assuming you're a 2-class multi).
Well then. Remind me again, why would I ever dual class. Or better - why would I ever single class at all?
I'm exaggerating, but still. In case of a F/M/T, that means the Fighter class will get first HLA at level 13. Level 13! That's only 2/3 towards unlocking the class' full potential.
That's not really a High Level Ability anymore, is it...
You're not getting them any earlier in relation to the story, though. If you created a custom game with a Fighter, a Fighter/Thief, and a Fighter/Mage/Thief, then all three characters would get their first HLA at exactly the same time.
If your fighter got his first HLA the second he reached Spellhold, then your F/T would get his first HLA the second he reached Spellhold, and your F/M/T would also get his first HLA the second he reached Spellhold. It's just that the Fighter is level 20, the F/T is level 14/16, and the F/M/T is level 12/12/14. (They're lower levels as a fighter, but one could argue that with 30 / 38 combined levels, they're actually "higher level" overall than the pure fighter. But HLA was always a misnomer since it's never been tied to your level, it's always been tied to your active XP.)
I know you said you were exaggerating, but there are plenty of reasons to single-class or dual-class still. For single-classes, it's the fact that HLAs are not the only thing that characters gain as they level up. Single-class fighters will have better THACO, more HP, more proficiency points, arguably the best saving throw progression, etc. Single-class mages will have a ton more spells. Single-class characters can also get racial bonuses, including the OP "shorty saves". (Also, some classes are single-class only: Bards, Paladins, Monks, Barbarians, Sorcerers, Wild Mages.)
For dual-classes, it's the fact that some classes gain more benefit from high levels than others. For a Mage/Cleric, you're diluting your (very important!) mage level ups in order to gain extra (not very important!) cleric level ups. For a Cleric>Mage dual, you're getting full mage progression, which is great because full mage progression beats the pants off of everything else in ToB. Also: fighter duals, because grandmastery.
Hmmm, so I'm thinking about it and it feels to me that when dualing from a Fighter, you should do it later, not sooner.
At least in the case of Berserker/Cleric(that I really, really want to make work)
If you dual at 13, you lose 8 ThAC0 and two tiers of saves. But you can hold out until level 17 for the best saves(and 4 more ThAC0) or until level 21 for everything that Fighter class can get you - that isn't a HLA.
Since Holy Power gives you a Fighter ThAC0 anyway, delaying until 21 is hardly necessary, but let's consider both scenarios:
Fighter 17/Cleric 33 gives you 12 Cleric HLAs. You lose two 7th level Cleric spell slots compared to max level Cleric.
Fighter 21/Cleric 29 gives you 8 Cleric HLAs. You lose three 7th level Cleric spell slots.
The difference between Fighter 17 and Fighter 21 is one million XP... so it's almost definitely not worth holding out for that long, especially since again, you can fix your ThAC0 with Holy Power. Hell, even if you couldn't do it, 4 ThAC0 isn't end of the world with Grandmastery and 25 Strength.
Now, 8 or 12 HLAs does not seem like much - hovewer all Cleric HLAs can only be taken once anyway! And there are a total of 8 of them. So Clerics simply do not benefit from having more than 8 HLAs. That's actually a point in favor of going Fighter 21.
I also think people undervalue some Cleric HLAs(like Energy Blades which is basically a Cleric version of Whirlwind and also gives you Improved Haste effect, or Storm of Vengeance which is basically AoE guaranteed cast interrupt for 3 rounds to anything that is not immune to cast interruptions. And Implosion is just good in general)
The problem with high-level duals isn't just how much more XP it takes to reach the higher level in your first class, but also the amount of XP it takes to reach the higher level in your second class.
Fighter(7)>Cleric is a great low-level dual. It is "complete" (e.g. drawing benefits from both classes) as early as 164,000 XP. The "downtime", (time it takes before you regain your second class), is just 110,000 XP, which is basically like one quest in Chapter 2. Finally, you start getting your HLAs as early as 3.21m XP.
Fighter(13)>Cleric is really about the maximum feasible dual unless you want to go through a crazy slog just to get a marginally better character for the final 10% of the game. It is complete at 2.6m XP, has a downtime of 1.35m XP, and reaches HLAs at 4.40m XP.
Fighter(17)>Cleric is complete at 4.5m XP, has a downtime of 2.25m XP, and doesn't gain HLAs until 5.40m XP. For that extra 2m wait to complete, you gain 2 better THACO, (that gets wiped out the second you cast Holy Power), and +1 to your saves vs. Wand, Polymorph, Breath, and Spells. That's... not much of a reward.
Fighter(21)>Cleric completes at 6.4m XP, has a downtime of 3.15m XP, and doesn't gain Cleric HLAs until that 6.4m mark when it completes. In exchange for this brutal slog, you get four more points of THACO (which, again, can be wiped out by Holy Power) and two fighter HLAs.
Just as a general guideline, I like to assume that in a full party of 6 playthrough I'm going to have 1.5m XP when I leave for Spellhold, 3.0m XP when I exit the underdark, and ~6.5m XP by the end of Throne of Bhaal, (assuming I save Watchers' Keep). Obviously the numbers are different with smaller parties, and you can game the XP system or be extra-completionist to wring out some extra, (I don't usually recruit characters just for their personal quests, for instance).
So my F(7)>C is basically complete the second I step out of Chateau Irenicus and getting HLAs by the end of Shadows of Amn. My F(13)>C is complete towards the end of the Underdark and reaching HLAs midway through Throne of Bhaal. A hypothetical F(17)>C doesn't complete until you're halfway through Throne of Bhaal, and won't be reaching HLAs until even further than that. And the F(21)>C is basically just a pure-class Cleric, (a low-level one without HLAs, at that), through the entirety of ToB.
The reason to dual as soon as you gain whatever bonus it is you're looking to gain is because the time between initiating a dual and completing a dual sucks, and it's annoying to play through half of the game as a sucky version of yourself so you can be 3% more powerful for the final battle.
For fighters, this either means dualing immediately, (if you just want your berserker rages, Grandmastery, and the extra half-attack at level 7), dualing at level 9 (for maximum HP and an extra set of Kensai bonuses), or dualing at level 13 (for your last APR bonus). Anything higher than that is mostly theoretical territory or perhaps fodder for solo playthroughs.
As for Cleric HLAs... they aren't bad, they're just bad relative to what every other class gets. Druids get every Cleric HLA + Elemental Princes and Elemental Transformations. Thieves get UAI and Spike Traps. Fighters get Greater Whirlwind and Hardiness. (Thieves and Fighters especially benefit from having repeatable HLAs, which means they benefit from having more than 8.) And Mages get... well, the ability to completely break the game (even more than they already could).
The best Cleric HLA is Deva, which is one of the top four summons in the game... but Planetar is substantially better, Elemental Princes are roughly equivalent, and Mordenk's Swords can be situationally better, too, (since they're basically unkillable outside of ADHW and Death Spell).
The second-best Cleric HLA is probably Energy Blades, which as you point out is just an inferior version of the fighter's GWW, (because Fighters can use theirs with things like the Ravager). Plus Mages get it, too.
The third-best Cleric HLA is... I don't know. Mass Raise Dead is basically just an upgraded Mass Cure. Implosion is great single-target damage, but if it were a level 8 Mage spell it might be overshadowed by ADHW (similar damage potential in a party-friendly AoE) or Bigby's Clenched Fist (similar guaranteed stun with less damage, but the potential for the stun to last longer on a failed save). To say nothing of if it were competing with actual level 9 spells and mage HLAs.
Storm of Vengeance is a gimped version of the Druid's Insect Plague / Creeping Doom line. Elemental Summoning is outclassed by Deva. Aura of Flaming Death is extremely underwhelming; the best property might be immunity to nonmagical weapons, and most characters are going to be immune to +1 weapons or less naturally by the time they get through Hell.
Really, my high level clerics wind up stuffing almost all of their level 7 spell slots with Deva, Energy Blades, Earthquake, Firestorm, Sunray, and Symbol: Stun. I barely wind up using my HLAs. That'd be totally unthinkable for a Fighter, Thief, or Mage.
How come nobody suggested doing it the other way around? A lvl 15 cleric of talos will get 4x lightning bolts (as an ability, not a spell, meaning it takes no spell slots), 2 x storm shield (which is AWESOME in early game, as it stop all missiles) and 1 lvl 7 spell (finger of death. Is perhaps not the best spell, but definately the coolest one). This at a cost of 1,5 million XP, which may be hard to swallow due to downtimes, but it is doable.
I also did a thread were I suggested bringing a shapeshifter druid to lvl 13 (only 750 000 XP). Early druid spells are a bit disappointing, (but the werewolf ability is not, at least not in early game,) but later druid spells are SOOO much more satisfying than cleric spells. I mean, honestly, what in the cleric spell list for 3th, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells is not meh? Yes yes, cure paralysis and holy power is mildly practical, but other than that? Flame strike and blade barrier..? Druids on the other hand gets call lightning, nymphs, iron skins and conjure fire elementals.
Single-class fighters will have better THACO, more HP, more proficiency points, arguably the best saving throw progression, etc.
Fighter tops out ThAC0 and saving throws by level 21, which is well within reach of two-class multiclasses. Only triple class combinations would miss out on it.
The reason to dual as soon as you gain whatever bonus it is you're looking to gain is because the time between initiating a dual and completing a dual sucks, and it's annoying to play through half of the game as a sucky version of yourself so you can be 3% more powerful for the final battle.
I don't know why people always say that the dual class downtime is so horrible. I mean sure, you are not as good as you're going to be once you regain your first class, but you are still your second class without any penalties whatsoever. Maybe you'll be a bit underleveled, but it's not such a big deal.
So in case of Fighter 21/Cleric, sure you're not a Fighter anymore but you're still a level 10-15-20 Cleric. Are level 10-15-20 Clerics so terrible?
And even if they were terrible, you're still in a party. You could be permanently polymorphed into a Squirrel and it wouldn't matter.
On a side note, it seems like an inconsistency to me: if multiclasses are elligible for earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool, why are dual classes not elligible to earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool?
And dual-classes do share an XP pool, as evidenced by the fact that XP of both classes is taken into account when calculating the XP caps. But when it comes to HLAs, that XP pool suddenly doesn't matter; only single class XP does.
On a side note, it seems like an inconsistency to me: if multiclasses are elligible for earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool, why are dual classes not elligible to earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool?
And dual-classes do share an XP pool, as evidenced by the fact that XP of both classes is taken into account when calculating the XP caps. But when it comes to HLAs, that XP pool suddenly doesn't matter; only single class XP does.
Because if you dual at three million, you wouild get 10 HLA for a ten level whatever. I think maybe there could be a quarantine until you reach like 1 million or sumthing with your second class.
And also because gaining 10-15 lvls worth of some kit abilities is > gaining 1 or 2 extra HLA in your second class (by the end game where levels are few and far apart).
But yeah, in early lategame it is VERY unfair, when everyone else gets sparkly new HLA:s and you don't
Single-class fighters will have better THACO, more HP, more proficiency points, arguably the best saving throw progression, etc.
Fighter tops out ThAC0 and saving throws by level 21, which is well within reach of two-class multiclasses. Only triple class combinations would miss out on it.
Sure, reachable by 2-class multis... by the end of ToB. Fighter multis need 4.5m XP to max out saving throws and 6.5m to max out THACO. In late SoA / early ToB, they'll be six points behind a pureclass fighter in THACO. The very end of the game is only a small portion of the game.
Besides, comparing a pureclass fighter to a multiclass fighter you add Grandmastery and kit bonuses to the list of a pureclass's advantages. (Comparing a pureclass to a dual-class takes Grandmastery and kit bonuses off the table, but adds back the THACO and saves.)
I don't know why people always say that the dual class downtime is so horrible. I mean sure, you are not as good as you're going to be once you regain your first class, but you are still your second class without any penalties whatsoever. Maybe you'll be a bit underleveled, but it's not such a big deal.
So in case of Fighter 21/Cleric, sure you're not a Fighter anymore but you're still a level 10-15-20 Cleric. Are level 10-15-20 Clerics so terrible?
And even if they were terrible, you're still in a party. You could be permanently polymorphed into a Squirrel and it wouldn't matter.
On a side note, it seems like an inconsistency to me: if multiclasses are elligible for earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool, why are dual classes not elligible to earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool?
And dual-classes do share an XP pool, as evidenced by the fact that XP of both classes is taken into account when calculating the XP caps. But when it comes to HLAs, that XP pool suddenly doesn't matter; only single class XP does.
I wonder if you could mod that.
A bit underleveled?
Imoen is a bit underleveled. Depending on your party composition and how much of Chapter 2 you did, she might join you somewhere between 500k and 1m experience behind your existing party members. (It's actually possible to get her to join with more XP than the rest of your party, but you've gotta game the system pretty hard.)
For a level 17 fighter dual-class, you're looking at being 2.25m experience behind your existing party members. So, like, three times the size of that Imoen level gap that people already complain so much about.
Are level 10/15/20 Clerics so terrible? Depends. In Chapter 2 of SoA, of course not. Halfway through Throne of Bhaal? Umm... yes! I mean, if a pureclass Cleric was so great, why did you go through all that trouble to dual-class in the first place? Presumably, you did it because you want things like usable THACO values and more than one APR. So yeah, being forced to play maybe 25% of the game without those usable THACO values and multiple APR is a bit of a drag.
For the last bit, I'm not sure why dual-classes don't get HLAs based on their shared XP pool. I can think of three possible reasons. The first would be thematic: HLAs are based on your active XP, not your lifetime XP.
The second reason would be balance. A F/T gets 23 HLAs, tied for the most in the game I believe with a C/T. A Fighter(20)>Thief dual, on the other hand, would get 33 HLAs, nearly 50% more than the current best. It's not like dual-classes are underpowered and need the help.
The third reason would be mechanical. In vanilla BG2, if you try to level up but for some reason are unable to allocate any new proficiency pips, the game won't let you complete the level-up. This would mean that, for instance, an Archer>Cleric multiclass, because of his severe weapon restrictions, could find himself in a situation where Cleric level 20 or 24 rolls around and there's no valid place to put their new pip, so they're prohibited from leveling up for the rest of the game.
I'm not sure if the same issue would be present with HLAs, but if it was, that would make dual-classes into Mage completely unusable, because the only Mage HLAs you can take before you have 3m XP is the extra spell ones, and you run out of those in a hurry.
The main thing you get by dualling from warrior is APR, which suggests that 7th or 13th level are the optimal times to dual-class. (For me personally, I do it at 7th... buffs easily make up for that second 0.5 APR.)
Assuming you're talking about BG2, It's probably optimal to dual at 9 rather than 7. You pick up an extra proficiency point, an extra use of the kit ability, extra THAC0, and full fighter hit dice - all for the price of XP amounts that are practically trivial in BG2.
But I should reiterate, you do not get any thac0 bonus here. You'll have a thac0 of 6 as a cleric, and the only way to change that with your first class is to a) dual from warrior at level 16 or later (which makes little sense, as mentioned above); or b) dual from Assassin or Swashbuckler.
Frankly I'd probably prefer to roll with a Swash->cleric than a fighter->cleric... depending on the mod setup.
Fair enough on the THAC0, but I don't see how kit abilities aren't relevant. An extra use of Berserker Rage seems a pretty big deal to me at so low a cost.
Mod setups notwithstanding (they change everything, obviously) I'm not sure I'd trade 1.5 apr + kit abilities just for thieving skills in the case of Swash dual (the damage bonus at low levels is effectively nil because of the lack of an extra 3 proficiency pips).
The main thing you get by dualling from warrior is APR, which suggests that 7th or 13th level are the optimal times to dual-class. (For me personally, I do it at 7th... buffs easily make up for that second 0.5 APR.)
Assuming you're talking about BG2, It's probably optimal to dual at 9 rather than 7. You pick up an extra proficiency point, an extra use of the kit ability, extra THAC0, and full fighter hit dice - all for the price of XP amounts that are practically trivial in BG2.
The level 7 dual takes 110k XP to unlock, while the level 9 dual takes 450k to unlock. Also, the biggest advantage of the level 7 dual is if you're using a non-imported character, (starts with 89k XP), you can execute it the second you gain control and play the entire game more or less in your final class. (Hell, you've practically got it unlocked by the time you exit Chateau Irenicus.)
The level 9 dual has to burn 161k XP just to get ready to dual, (more than the level 7 dual requires to complete). Total cost is 611k, which isn't a ton, but it's about a third of Chapter 2.
So it's not a huge cost, but it's not no cost. What do you get for that small cost? You have two points better THACO until you hit Cleric level 13, (1.125m XP), at which point the advantage goes away. Your Breath save stays a point or two better for a solid while (until about 2.5m XP), though your other saves quickly get eclipsed.
You get a proficiency pip, but it's not properly speaking an "extra" one; at 250k XP, that pip will bring the level 9 dual to 7 points, 9 after dualing. Meanwhile, at the equivalent XP the level 7 dual will have 10 pips. For much of the saga, you'll be ahead, but for some of the saga (especially early when pips are hardest to come by), you'll be behind.
Also, by dualing at 7 you're able to put your level 8 Cleric pip towards Grandmastery, while the level 9 dual can't do that, which helps offset the "advantage" point of the level 9 dual.
Assuming 18 constitution, the level 9 dual also gets 8 more HP.
At the end of the day, the cost of a level 9 dual is pretty minor. And the advantages of a level 9 dual are also pretty minor. It's really player's choice which he or she prefers. For me, the ability to start the dual the second I gain control of my character is a bigger deal than a handful of extra HP.
(Kits change the math. For a Kensai, it'd be silly to not go to level 9 for an extra round of bonii. For a Wizard Slayer... meh, who cares about an extra 4% magic resistance.)
Also, by dualing at 7 you're able to put your level 8 Cleric pip towards Grandmastery, while the level 9 dual can't do that, which helps offset the "advantage" point of the level 9 dual.
Actually no, that bug/exploit has been fixed, as of v2.0 no classes can get GM before level 9. (Though I suppose you can still do the thing where, from level 7, you get enough XP to jump two levels at once.)
Thanks. I'm on iPad, so still 1.3.
Even without getting to Grandmastery, you can still use that level 8 point to boost your fighter proficiencies-- say, put a 3rd pip in Two-Weapon Fighting. The level 9 dual is pretty much going to be burning his level 8 Cleric pip somewhere just to put it somewhere, I doubt it will wind up getting much use.
But yeah, having to wait until Cleric 12 to hit Grandmastery now does make a strong argument in favor of the Fighter(9) dual. And also a strong argument in favor of "jumping" level 8. It's an extra 115k XP on the front end before unlocking your dual-class, but the alternative is an extra 800k XP on the back end before you get your extra 1/2 APR.
Actually no, cleric thac0 ends up at 6, equal to a 15th level fighter. So dualling at 13th level, you only lose 2 thac0 and 1 prof point, versus the 17th level dual. For a million or so XP of extra downtime, I'll take the early dual any day if the week.
Good catch about the Cleric ThAC0. The poing of getting to Fighter 17 was to maximize the saving throws hovewer.
It's weird to me how much people focus on XP gain here, I guess it's down to how you handle the party play. My original Berserker/Cleric plan assumed a Bhaalspawn-only party(CHARNAME, Imoen, Sarevok in ToB) so XP would never be an issue. Even the "canon" party is only four/five strong in SoA/ToB(CHARNAME, Imoen/Yoshimo, Jaheira, Minsc, add Sarevok in ToB) The largest party I could ever go with is still only 5 through almost entirety of SoA(as above, add Aerie, using the 6th slot to rotate NPCs for their personal quests, once you run out of personal quests in ToB get Sarevok)
So obviously I never even thought about the lack of XP being an issue.
Furthermore, remember that both XP and power progression is not linear. Going from a level 1 Mage to a level 5 Mage requires 16,000 XP and septuples your spell slots. Going from a level 10 Mage to a level 15 Mage takes 1,625,000 XP and almost doubles your spell slot total. Going from a level 20 Mage to a level 25 Mage takes 1,875,000 XP and gives you a whooping five spell slots. Obviously higher level spell slots can be seen as more valuable, but the point still stands: the difference in power between 1st and 5th level Mage is significantly higher than between 20th and 25th level Mage. The same with the second and third examples: Roughly the same amount of XP(~1,750,000) is significantly more "valuable" for the level 10th Mage than it is for the level 20th Mage.
So while being "1.5 million XP behind" sounds terrible, in practice it's really isn't, because it's the low levels - that you will be gaining ridiculously fast in SoA - that are the most important, and where you gain the most power anyway.
(Fighter would be an even better example here, as they essentially have three breakpoints at levels 13, 17 and 21; at 13 your HP and APR are maxed out; at 17 your HP, APR and saving throws are maxed out; and at 21 your HP, APR, saves and ThAC0 are maxed out. Nevermind that it takes only 1,250,000 XP to reach level 13 compared to 3,250,000 XP required to reach level 21, even though level 13 gives you well over 50% of your class' power already, HLAs nonwithstanding)
Instead of thinking about things in terms of XP, perhaps it's useful to think of things in terms of percentage of the game.
If I were to make really, really rough breakdown of the BG Trilogy into "units" of roughly equal size, here's how I'd break it down, as well as how much XP I'd assume I had at the end of that chunk in a full party-of-6 runthrough with no XP-grinding shenanigans, (e.g. no soloing basilisks before recruiting my party).
BG1 Candlekeep through Nashkel Mines (plus some exploration): ~10k XP BG1 Nashkel through Cloakwood: ~30k XP BG1 Cloakwood back to Candlekeep: ~80k XP BG1 Ulgoth's Beard, Durlag's Tower, and end-game: ~160k XP BG2 Chapters 1-3: ~1.5m XP BG2 Chapters 4-5: ~2.5m XP BG2 Chapter 6 through end-game: ~3.5m XP ToB Watcher's Keep and Yaga-Shura: ~5m XP ToB through end-game: ~6.5m XP
Now, this is obviously a very, very rough breakdown, and the BG1 XP marks might be off because my memory is fuzzy, since anymore I'm pretty much always abusing basilisks to race to higher levels. But if I'm doing a completionist playthough, that seems like a decent approximation of how long things take and where I am at the end of them.
Now, let's ignore a full trilogy run because that's going to skew the percentages, (even for a relatively low-level dual like F(7)>C you're going to spend a good half of the trilogy as not-a-Fighter/Cleric.) Let's assume someone is creating a character fresh in BG2 and playing through to the end of Throne of Bhaal.
A F(7)>C dual is complete in just 110k XP (not counting what you start with), which is less than 10% of what's available in Chapters 1-3, which is about 20% of the BG2/ToB game by time spent. So a F(7)>C will spend roughly 2% of his life as not-a-fighter-cleric.
A F(9)>C dual is complete in 610k XP (not counting what you start with), which is about 40% of Chapters 1-3, which is about 20% of the game. So a F(9)>C will spend roughly 8% of his life as not-a-fighter-cleric. As a result of that, he'll gain 12 extra HP and hit Grandmastery faster compared to the F(7) dual. Worth it? Not worth it? Dunno, that's for the player to decide.
A F(13)>C dual is complete in ~2.5m XP, which is around the end of Chapter 5, which represents about 40% of the game. In exchange for spending 40% of the game as not-a-fighter-cleric (as opposed to 8% for the F(9) dual), the F(13) dual gains an extra 1/2 APR and +3 to his save vs. breath, end-game. Worth it? Not worth it? Again, that's for the player to decide.
A F(17)>C dual is complete in ~4.5m XP, which is towards the end of the first half of ToB and represents about 70-75% of the way through the game. In exchange for playing three quarters of the game as not-a-fighter-cleric (as opposed to 40% for the F(13) dual), the F(17) dual gains an additional +1 to save vs. wand/poly/breath/spell (no bonus to save vs. death) and +2 THACO end-game. Worth it? Not worth it? That's for the player to decide. (But given that THACO and saves are going to be negative either way, no, it's not worth it.)
A F(21)>C dual is complete in ~6.3m XP, which is basically at the very end of the game. In exchange for playing the whole dang game as a not-a-fighter-cleric, the F(21) dual gets two fighter HLAs and four points of THACO, which is absolutely, positively, unequivocally, without argument not up to the player if it's worth it, I guess.
Now, when playing with smaller parties of course these considerations can change. I mean, people who solo Icewind Dale in Heart of Fury mode will do ridiculously crazy stuff like level 29 duals. (The popular Priest of Lathander(29)>Mage dual takes 12.2m experience to complete.)
But unless you're running a *really* small party, it's not going to change that much. Take a "canon" party of 4 run, for instance. If we pretended quest XP wasn't a thing, it bumps your XP gain by 50% compared to a party of 6 so instead of requiring 75% of the saga to complete, a F(17) dual would only require about 50% of the saga to complete. (And the F(13) dual drops from 40% to 25%.)
But, you know, quest experience actually is a thing that makes up maybe half of your XP gain, so you're not gaining 50% more XP by reducing from 6 to 4, you're really gaining more like 25% more XP, and that F(17) dual still takes more like 60+% of the game to complete, (vs. about 30% for the F(13) dual). So you're spending twice as long as not-your-preferred class in exchange for +1 to your saving throws and +2 THACO, which is kind of a terrible deal.
(For a duo run, which I'm a big fan of, you're going to get somewhere in the neighborhood of twice as much XP in Shadows of Amn, thanks to quest XP, which means the F(17) dual completes as fast as the F(13) dual would in a party-of-6 run. This is more interesting. Of course, it also means a F(13) dual completes in around 15% of the game, and since the advantages of F(17) are so small it's still probably not a great deal. But F(21) for a pair of Hardinesses suddenly gets a lot more interesting, especially since XP in ToB is much more lump sum from kills and much less quest XP.)
The more I think along those lines, the more I like multiclassing over the wacky dual-classing mechanic.
Yeah, if you're doing a trilogy run there's really no reason to dual-class unless you happen to quite like playing BG1 as your single-class version, as anything other than a really, really low-level dual (Level 2-6) will require around 50% of your total playtime spent as something other than your actual end-game class combination.
So if, say, you want to play BG1 as a thief and BG2 as a mage, a Swash(10)>M dual can make sense. But if you want to just make a cool Fighter/Cleric character, go multiclass because even with a level 7 dual you're going to spend nearly half of your playing time as something other than a Fighter/Cleric. (Which is a shame, since multiclass F/Cs are arguably more powerful, anyway.)
If you're just starting a fresh character in BG2, though, F(7) duals are amazing because you can start them as soon as you gain control of your character and they're almost complete by the time you escape Chateau Irenicus.
The more I think along those lines, the more I like multiclassing over the wacky dual-classing mechanic. Especially now that I can mod the game to allow humans to multiclass, and allow multiclass kits. If Beamdog would ever add a script action to the game in response to my two-year-old feature request, I would be able to create a hybrid system that gives players the best of both worlds... but Beamdog has not shown any interest in giving us that tool.
I'd rather they just threw the whole thing out and went with 3rd Edition.
But, you know, quest experience actually is a thing that makes up maybe half of your XP gain
I was not aware of that, though I actually find it kind of hard to believe. Quest XP in general always paled in comparison to combat XP gain, at least that's how it always seemed like to me, and AFAIK not all quest XP is Quest XP with a capital Q.
But, you know, quest experience actually is a thing that makes up maybe half of your XP gain
I was not aware of that, though I actually find it kind of hard to believe. Quest XP in general always paled in comparison to combat XP gain, at that's how it seemed like to me, and not all quest XP is Quest XP with a capital Q as far as I'm aware.
I was curious enough to check. I went through all of the major "plot quests" on Sorcerer's place to check their final quest XP rewards, which are always of the "party XP" variety.
When creating a fresh character, you start with 89,000 XP, which isn't technically "quest" XP, but should be counted since it's guaranteed XP that doesn't come from sources that are divvied up evenly. (This could be as high as 161,000 if you're importing from TotSC.)
Escaping Chateau Irenicus is worth 34,500 XP, (though obviously it's impossible to distribute that over a full party of 6). Most of the Stronghold quests award ~45,000 XP, (ranging from 44,000 for the Planar Prison to 45,750 for the Unseeing Eye). Druid grove gives 18,000, but you gain another 25,250 for the Djinni quest for a total of 43,250. If we just round everything to 45,000, that's 360,000 quest XP from stronghold quests.
Most non-stronghold quests typically don't award quest XP, but some do. I already mentioned the Djinni quest. Freeing the slaves gets everyone 38,000. "Helping" Xzar is worth 35,500. The Fallen Paladins net you 17,500. The Limited Wish quest gets you 16,500. Lilarcor gets you 18,000.
You get another 45,000 from turning in the money to Bayle, plus 28,500 for each of the first two main plot quests in chapter 3 and 50,000 for the third quest. It's possible I'm missing some, but if you do a relatively completionist run-through, this should be everything you get by the time you leave for Spellhold, (ignoring Watcher's Keep as ToB content).
Above, I estimated that I'm usually leaving for Spellhold with about 1.5m XP in a party-of-6, relatively-completionist runthrough. If we assume that my 1.5m XP for charname estimate is correct, then 761,000 of that 1.5m came from quest experience, which works out to just over 50%.
Chapter 4: you get 38,500 XP if you take the crazy way in, 29,500 for opening the face-gate, 29,500 for opening the minotaur-gate, 51,250 for completing the tests, either 58,500 or 60,500 for resolving Sahuagin city, for a total of 209,250 (maybe 170,750 if you get in through Perth, though I'm not positive on that).
Chapter 5: 25,000 for helping the deep gnomes, 78,500 for helping Adalon, 28,000 for "killing" the deep gnomes, 30,000 for "killing" Solaufein, 22,000 for fetching the blood, 25,000 for the egg sacrifice, a total of 200,000.
Chapter 6: 55,000 for killing Bodhi and grabbing the Rhynn Lanthorn, 74,500 for giving it to Elhan, and another 74,500 when Elhan opens the way to Suldanessar. There's another 204,000.
Chapter 7: 65,000 for summoning Rillifane. I don't believe there's any quest XP in Hell.
Adding it all up and assuming I haven't missed any other quest XP (definitely a possibility), then over the entire course of Shadows of Amn, (not counting Watcher's Keep), you'll get about 1.44m quest XP. Potentially 38,500 less if you enter Spellhold through the front gate, potentially 79,000 more if you imported from BG1, so let's just call it 1.4-1.5m total.
The original BG2 experience cap was 2.95m XP. I'm usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.0m XP, or maybe just north. If we assume I earned 1.4m quest XP and my Charname finishes with 3.5m XP, quest XP represents 40% of my total. If we assume 1.5m quest XP and my Charname finishes with 3.0m XP, quest XP represents 50% of my total.
40-50% feels like a pretty reasonable ballpark range for the amount of XP that will come from quest XP in Shadows of Amn in a typical party-of-6 run. It's a huge, huge fraction.
From these figures, we can actually infer a range of possible outcomes in smaller-party runs, too. If we assume that you finish with 3.0m XP and quest XP represents 50% of that total, then here's how much XP Charname will finish with based on party size, as well as how much "extra" XP that represents from kicking out the last party member.
3.0m XP in a party of 6 3.3m XP in a party of 5 (+0.3m XP) 3.75m XP in a party of 4 (+0.45m XP) 4.5m XP in a party of 3 (+0.75m XP) 6.0m XP in a party of 2 (+1.5m XP) 10.5m XP in a solo run (+4.5m XP)
If we take the more generous assumption of 3.5m XP with quest XP representing 40% of that, then Charname will finish SoA with:
3.5m XP in a party of 6 3.92m XP in a party of 5 (+0.42m XP) 4.55m XP in a party of 4 (+0.63m XP) 5.6m XP in a party of 3 (+1.05m XP) 7.7m XP in a party of 2 (+2.1m XP) 14.0m XP in a solo run (+6.3m XP)
Intuitively, the former list matches my experiences a bit better, but I'm providing both just to be thorough. Anyway, the larger takeaway is just that if you're kicking out 1 or 2 party members to turbocharge your XP gain, it's not going to make a huge impact. If you really want to speed up your leveling, you should be playing with a party of 3 or fewer.
Comments
That's not to say HLAs are bad. Not at all. Many of them are really good. But they're often not the earth-shattering cosmos-sundering I-WIN-buttons people sometimes seem to think they are.
The dual vs. multi debate has twelve dozen moving parts, each of which works upon all the others. It can be very difficult to decide what is "optimal" in a given setup and under a given set of personal preferences. While I always encourage people to think about their choices before making them, they should also be aware that for many people it just won't matter very much. Once you start getting into the fine fine FINE details, you would need a game of truly epic difficulty to actually even see those distinctions have a noticeable effect. For most people, either will do just fine.
So the F/C dual class functions mostly as a cleric late game, having the capacity to either destroy or command lichs, layering defensive buffs for your entire team, getting spells in BG2 at a relatively appropriate time. The downside is that you're basically hard-capped at 4 APR which isn't all that bad after improved haste anyways, and lacking Warrior HLAs, and you're not a Dwarf.
On the other hand, the F/C multi is going to level significantly slower, and it'll seem weaker during SoA due to lack of Grand Mastery. You'll never have the levels to do anything meaningful with Turn Undead, as anything that can be turned by your lower Cleric level is kinda pathetic anyways (Shades and such.) They come into their own later, since they'll have the better saving throw table (if running a shorty,) the capability of being immune to physical damage (armor of faith, Hardiness, defender of Easthaven), as well as more HLAs and the entire warrior pool of HLAs.
I'm going to suggest going for a Beastmaster -> Cleric dual at level 10 or 13 to get Summon Animal I and II as level 1 and 2 spells respectively, and if you go all the way to 13, the extra half-attack. Note that dualing at 13 takes almost 3m experience to reclaim, so I'd recommend dualing at level 10.
If your fighter got his first HLA the second he reached Spellhold, then your F/T would get his first HLA the second he reached Spellhold, and your F/M/T would also get his first HLA the second he reached Spellhold. It's just that the Fighter is level 20, the F/T is level 14/16, and the F/M/T is level 12/12/14. (They're lower levels as a fighter, but one could argue that with 30 / 38 combined levels, they're actually "higher level" overall than the pure fighter. But HLA was always a misnomer since it's never been tied to your level, it's always been tied to your active XP.)
I know you said you were exaggerating, but there are plenty of reasons to single-class or dual-class still. For single-classes, it's the fact that HLAs are not the only thing that characters gain as they level up. Single-class fighters will have better THACO, more HP, more proficiency points, arguably the best saving throw progression, etc. Single-class mages will have a ton more spells. Single-class characters can also get racial bonuses, including the OP "shorty saves". (Also, some classes are single-class only: Bards, Paladins, Monks, Barbarians, Sorcerers, Wild Mages.)
For dual-classes, it's the fact that some classes gain more benefit from high levels than others. For a Mage/Cleric, you're diluting your (very important!) mage level ups in order to gain extra (not very important!) cleric level ups. For a Cleric>Mage dual, you're getting full mage progression, which is great because full mage progression beats the pants off of everything else in ToB. Also: fighter duals, because grandmastery.
Fighter(7)>Cleric is a great low-level dual. It is "complete" (e.g. drawing benefits from both classes) as early as 164,000 XP. The "downtime", (time it takes before you regain your second class), is just 110,000 XP, which is basically like one quest in Chapter 2. Finally, you start getting your HLAs as early as 3.21m XP.
Fighter(13)>Cleric is really about the maximum feasible dual unless you want to go through a crazy slog just to get a marginally better character for the final 10% of the game. It is complete at 2.6m XP, has a downtime of 1.35m XP, and reaches HLAs at 4.40m XP.
Fighter(17)>Cleric is complete at 4.5m XP, has a downtime of 2.25m XP, and doesn't gain HLAs until 5.40m XP. For that extra 2m wait to complete, you gain 2 better THACO, (that gets wiped out the second you cast Holy Power), and +1 to your saves vs. Wand, Polymorph, Breath, and Spells. That's... not much of a reward.
Fighter(21)>Cleric completes at 6.4m XP, has a downtime of 3.15m XP, and doesn't gain Cleric HLAs until that 6.4m mark when it completes. In exchange for this brutal slog, you get four more points of THACO (which, again, can be wiped out by Holy Power) and two fighter HLAs.
Just as a general guideline, I like to assume that in a full party of 6 playthrough I'm going to have 1.5m XP when I leave for Spellhold, 3.0m XP when I exit the underdark, and ~6.5m XP by the end of Throne of Bhaal, (assuming I save Watchers' Keep). Obviously the numbers are different with smaller parties, and you can game the XP system or be extra-completionist to wring out some extra, (I don't usually recruit characters just for their personal quests, for instance).
So my F(7)>C is basically complete the second I step out of Chateau Irenicus and getting HLAs by the end of Shadows of Amn. My F(13)>C is complete towards the end of the Underdark and reaching HLAs midway through Throne of Bhaal. A hypothetical F(17)>C doesn't complete until you're halfway through Throne of Bhaal, and won't be reaching HLAs until even further than that. And the F(21)>C is basically just a pure-class Cleric, (a low-level one without HLAs, at that), through the entirety of ToB.
The reason to dual as soon as you gain whatever bonus it is you're looking to gain is because the time between initiating a dual and completing a dual sucks, and it's annoying to play through half of the game as a sucky version of yourself so you can be 3% more powerful for the final battle.
For fighters, this either means dualing immediately, (if you just want your berserker rages, Grandmastery, and the extra half-attack at level 7), dualing at level 9 (for maximum HP and an extra set of Kensai bonuses), or dualing at level 13 (for your last APR bonus). Anything higher than that is mostly theoretical territory or perhaps fodder for solo playthroughs.
As for Cleric HLAs... they aren't bad, they're just bad relative to what every other class gets. Druids get every Cleric HLA + Elemental Princes and Elemental Transformations. Thieves get UAI and Spike Traps. Fighters get Greater Whirlwind and Hardiness. (Thieves and Fighters especially benefit from having repeatable HLAs, which means they benefit from having more than 8.) And Mages get... well, the ability to completely break the game (even more than they already could).
The best Cleric HLA is Deva, which is one of the top four summons in the game... but Planetar is substantially better, Elemental Princes are roughly equivalent, and Mordenk's Swords can be situationally better, too, (since they're basically unkillable outside of ADHW and Death Spell).
The second-best Cleric HLA is probably Energy Blades, which as you point out is just an inferior version of the fighter's GWW, (because Fighters can use theirs with things like the Ravager). Plus Mages get it, too.
The third-best Cleric HLA is... I don't know. Mass Raise Dead is basically just an upgraded Mass Cure. Implosion is great single-target damage, but if it were a level 8 Mage spell it might be overshadowed by ADHW (similar damage potential in a party-friendly AoE) or Bigby's Clenched Fist (similar guaranteed stun with less damage, but the potential for the stun to last longer on a failed save). To say nothing of if it were competing with actual level 9 spells and mage HLAs.
Storm of Vengeance is a gimped version of the Druid's Insect Plague / Creeping Doom line. Elemental Summoning is outclassed by Deva. Aura of Flaming Death is extremely underwhelming; the best property might be immunity to nonmagical weapons, and most characters are going to be immune to +1 weapons or less naturally by the time they get through Hell.
Really, my high level clerics wind up stuffing almost all of their level 7 spell slots with Deva, Energy Blades, Earthquake, Firestorm, Sunray, and Symbol: Stun. I barely wind up using my HLAs. That'd be totally unthinkable for a Fighter, Thief, or Mage.
I also did a thread were I suggested bringing a shapeshifter druid to lvl 13 (only 750 000 XP). Early druid spells are a bit disappointing, (but the werewolf ability is not, at least not in early game,) but later druid spells are SOOO much more satisfying than cleric spells. I mean, honestly, what in the cleric spell list for 3th, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells is not meh? Yes yes, cure paralysis and holy power is mildly practical, but other than that? Flame strike and blade barrier..? Druids on the other hand gets call lightning, nymphs, iron skins and conjure fire elementals.
So in case of Fighter 21/Cleric, sure you're not a Fighter anymore but you're still a level 10-15-20 Cleric. Are level 10-15-20 Clerics so terrible?
And even if they were terrible, you're still in a party. You could be permanently polymorphed into a Squirrel and it wouldn't matter.
On a side note, it seems like an inconsistency to me: if multiclasses are elligible for earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool, why are dual classes not elligible to earlier HLAs because of their shared XP pool?
And dual-classes do share an XP pool, as evidenced by the fact that XP of both classes is taken into account when calculating the XP caps. But when it comes to HLAs, that XP pool suddenly doesn't matter; only single class XP does.
I wonder if you could mod that.
And also because gaining 10-15 lvls worth of some kit abilities is > gaining 1 or 2 extra HLA in your second class (by the end game where levels are few and far apart).
But yeah, in early lategame it is VERY unfair, when everyone else gets sparkly new HLA:s and you don't
Besides, comparing a pureclass fighter to a multiclass fighter you add Grandmastery and kit bonuses to the list of a pureclass's advantages. (Comparing a pureclass to a dual-class takes Grandmastery and kit bonuses off the table, but adds back the THACO and saves.) A bit underleveled?
Imoen is a bit underleveled. Depending on your party composition and how much of Chapter 2 you did, she might join you somewhere between 500k and 1m experience behind your existing party members. (It's actually possible to get her to join with more XP than the rest of your party, but you've gotta game the system pretty hard.)
For a level 17 fighter dual-class, you're looking at being 2.25m experience behind your existing party members. So, like, three times the size of that Imoen level gap that people already complain so much about.
Are level 10/15/20 Clerics so terrible? Depends. In Chapter 2 of SoA, of course not. Halfway through Throne of Bhaal? Umm... yes! I mean, if a pureclass Cleric was so great, why did you go through all that trouble to dual-class in the first place? Presumably, you did it because you want things like usable THACO values and more than one APR. So yeah, being forced to play maybe 25% of the game without those usable THACO values and multiple APR is a bit of a drag.
For the last bit, I'm not sure why dual-classes don't get HLAs based on their shared XP pool. I can think of three possible reasons. The first would be thematic: HLAs are based on your active XP, not your lifetime XP.
The second reason would be balance. A F/T gets 23 HLAs, tied for the most in the game I believe with a C/T. A Fighter(20)>Thief dual, on the other hand, would get 33 HLAs, nearly 50% more than the current best. It's not like dual-classes are underpowered and need the help.
The third reason would be mechanical. In vanilla BG2, if you try to level up but for some reason are unable to allocate any new proficiency pips, the game won't let you complete the level-up. This would mean that, for instance, an Archer>Cleric multiclass, because of his severe weapon restrictions, could find himself in a situation where Cleric level 20 or 24 rolls around and there's no valid place to put their new pip, so they're prohibited from leveling up for the rest of the game.
I'm not sure if the same issue would be present with HLAs, but if it was, that would make dual-classes into Mage completely unusable, because the only Mage HLAs you can take before you have 3m XP is the extra spell ones, and you run out of those in a hurry.
Mod setups notwithstanding (they change everything, obviously) I'm not sure I'd trade 1.5 apr + kit abilities just for thieving skills in the case of Swash dual (the damage bonus at low levels is effectively nil because of the lack of an extra 3 proficiency pips).
The level 9 dual has to burn 161k XP just to get ready to dual, (more than the level 7 dual requires to complete). Total cost is 611k, which isn't a ton, but it's about a third of Chapter 2.
So it's not a huge cost, but it's not no cost. What do you get for that small cost? You have two points better THACO until you hit Cleric level 13, (1.125m XP), at which point the advantage goes away. Your Breath save stays a point or two better for a solid while (until about 2.5m XP), though your other saves quickly get eclipsed.
You get a proficiency pip, but it's not properly speaking an "extra" one; at 250k XP, that pip will bring the level 9 dual to 7 points, 9 after dualing. Meanwhile, at the equivalent XP the level 7 dual will have 10 pips. For much of the saga, you'll be ahead, but for some of the saga (especially early when pips are hardest to come by), you'll be behind.
Also, by dualing at 7 you're able to put your level 8 Cleric pip towards Grandmastery, while the level 9 dual can't do that, which helps offset the "advantage" point of the level 9 dual.
Assuming 18 constitution, the level 9 dual also gets 8 more HP.
At the end of the day, the cost of a level 9 dual is pretty minor. And the advantages of a level 9 dual are also pretty minor. It's really player's choice which he or she prefers. For me, the ability to start the dual the second I gain control of my character is a bigger deal than a handful of extra HP.
(Kits change the math. For a Kensai, it'd be silly to not go to level 9 for an extra round of bonii. For a Wizard Slayer... meh, who cares about an extra 4% magic resistance.)
Even without getting to Grandmastery, you can still use that level 8 point to boost your fighter proficiencies-- say, put a 3rd pip in Two-Weapon Fighting. The level 9 dual is pretty much going to be burning his level 8 Cleric pip somewhere just to put it somewhere, I doubt it will wind up getting much use.
But yeah, having to wait until Cleric 12 to hit Grandmastery now does make a strong argument in favor of the Fighter(9) dual. And also a strong argument in favor of "jumping" level 8. It's an extra 115k XP on the front end before unlocking your dual-class, but the alternative is an extra 800k XP on the back end before you get your extra 1/2 APR.
It's weird to me how much people focus on XP gain here, I guess it's down to how you handle the party play. My original Berserker/Cleric plan assumed a Bhaalspawn-only party(CHARNAME, Imoen, Sarevok in ToB) so XP would never be an issue. Even the "canon" party is only four/five strong in SoA/ToB(CHARNAME, Imoen/Yoshimo, Jaheira, Minsc, add Sarevok in ToB) The largest party I could ever go with is still only 5 through almost entirety of SoA(as above, add Aerie, using the 6th slot to rotate NPCs for their personal quests, once you run out of personal quests in ToB get Sarevok)
So obviously I never even thought about the lack of XP being an issue.
Furthermore, remember that both XP and power progression is not linear. Going from a level 1 Mage to a level 5 Mage requires 16,000 XP and septuples your spell slots. Going from a level 10 Mage to a level 15 Mage takes 1,625,000 XP and almost doubles your spell slot total. Going from a level 20 Mage to a level 25 Mage takes 1,875,000 XP and gives you a whooping five spell slots. Obviously higher level spell slots can be seen as more valuable, but the point still stands: the difference in power between 1st and 5th level Mage is significantly higher than between 20th and 25th level Mage. The same with the second and third examples: Roughly the same amount of XP(~1,750,000) is significantly more "valuable" for the level 10th Mage than it is for the level 20th Mage.
So while being "1.5 million XP behind" sounds terrible, in practice it's really isn't, because it's the low levels - that you will be gaining ridiculously fast in SoA - that are the most important, and where you gain the most power anyway.
(Fighter would be an even better example here, as they essentially have three breakpoints at levels 13, 17 and 21; at 13 your HP and APR are maxed out; at 17 your HP, APR and saving throws are maxed out; and at 21 your HP, APR, saves and ThAC0 are maxed out. Nevermind that it takes only 1,250,000 XP to reach level 13 compared to 3,250,000 XP required to reach level 21, even though level 13 gives you well over 50% of your class' power already, HLAs nonwithstanding)
If I were to make really, really rough breakdown of the BG Trilogy into "units" of roughly equal size, here's how I'd break it down, as well as how much XP I'd assume I had at the end of that chunk in a full party-of-6 runthrough with no XP-grinding shenanigans, (e.g. no soloing basilisks before recruiting my party).
BG1 Candlekeep through Nashkel Mines (plus some exploration): ~10k XP
BG1 Nashkel through Cloakwood: ~30k XP
BG1 Cloakwood back to Candlekeep: ~80k XP
BG1 Ulgoth's Beard, Durlag's Tower, and end-game: ~160k XP
BG2 Chapters 1-3: ~1.5m XP
BG2 Chapters 4-5: ~2.5m XP
BG2 Chapter 6 through end-game: ~3.5m XP
ToB Watcher's Keep and Yaga-Shura: ~5m XP
ToB through end-game: ~6.5m XP
Now, this is obviously a very, very rough breakdown, and the BG1 XP marks might be off because my memory is fuzzy, since anymore I'm pretty much always abusing basilisks to race to higher levels. But if I'm doing a completionist playthough, that seems like a decent approximation of how long things take and where I am at the end of them.
Now, let's ignore a full trilogy run because that's going to skew the percentages, (even for a relatively low-level dual like F(7)>C you're going to spend a good half of the trilogy as not-a-Fighter/Cleric.) Let's assume someone is creating a character fresh in BG2 and playing through to the end of Throne of Bhaal.
A F(7)>C dual is complete in just 110k XP (not counting what you start with), which is less than 10% of what's available in Chapters 1-3, which is about 20% of the BG2/ToB game by time spent. So a F(7)>C will spend roughly 2% of his life as not-a-fighter-cleric.
A F(9)>C dual is complete in 610k XP (not counting what you start with), which is about 40% of Chapters 1-3, which is about 20% of the game. So a F(9)>C will spend roughly 8% of his life as not-a-fighter-cleric. As a result of that, he'll gain 12 extra HP and hit Grandmastery faster compared to the F(7) dual. Worth it? Not worth it? Dunno, that's for the player to decide.
A F(13)>C dual is complete in ~2.5m XP, which is around the end of Chapter 5, which represents about 40% of the game. In exchange for spending 40% of the game as not-a-fighter-cleric (as opposed to 8% for the F(9) dual), the F(13) dual gains an extra 1/2 APR and +3 to his save vs. breath, end-game. Worth it? Not worth it? Again, that's for the player to decide.
A F(17)>C dual is complete in ~4.5m XP, which is towards the end of the first half of ToB and represents about 70-75% of the way through the game. In exchange for playing three quarters of the game as not-a-fighter-cleric (as opposed to 40% for the F(13) dual), the F(17) dual gains an additional +1 to save vs. wand/poly/breath/spell (no bonus to save vs. death) and +2 THACO end-game. Worth it? Not worth it? That's for the player to decide. (But given that THACO and saves are going to be negative either way, no, it's not worth it.)
A F(21)>C dual is complete in ~6.3m XP, which is basically at the very end of the game. In exchange for playing the whole dang game as a not-a-fighter-cleric, the F(21) dual gets two fighter HLAs and four points of THACO, which is
absolutely, positively, unequivocally, without argument notup to the player if it's worth it, I guess.Now, when playing with smaller parties of course these considerations can change. I mean, people who solo Icewind Dale in Heart of Fury mode will do ridiculously crazy stuff like level 29 duals. (The popular Priest of Lathander(29)>Mage dual takes 12.2m experience to complete.)
But unless you're running a *really* small party, it's not going to change that much. Take a "canon" party of 4 run, for instance. If we pretended quest XP wasn't a thing, it bumps your XP gain by 50% compared to a party of 6 so instead of requiring 75% of the saga to complete, a F(17) dual would only require about 50% of the saga to complete. (And the F(13) dual drops from 40% to 25%.)
But, you know, quest experience actually is a thing that makes up maybe half of your XP gain, so you're not gaining 50% more XP by reducing from 6 to 4, you're really gaining more like 25% more XP, and that F(17) dual still takes more like 60+% of the game to complete, (vs. about 30% for the F(13) dual). So you're spending twice as long as not-your-preferred class in exchange for +1 to your saving throws and +2 THACO, which is kind of a terrible deal.
(For a duo run, which I'm a big fan of, you're going to get somewhere in the neighborhood of twice as much XP in Shadows of Amn, thanks to quest XP, which means the F(17) dual completes as fast as the F(13) dual would in a party-of-6 run. This is more interesting. Of course, it also means a F(13) dual completes in around 15% of the game, and since the advantages of F(17) are so small it's still probably not a great deal. But F(21) for a pair of Hardinesses suddenly gets a lot more interesting, especially since XP in ToB is much more lump sum from kills and much less quest XP.)
So if, say, you want to play BG1 as a thief and BG2 as a mage, a Swash(10)>M dual can make sense. But if you want to just make a cool Fighter/Cleric character, go multiclass because even with a level 7 dual you're going to spend nearly half of your playing time as something other than a Fighter/Cleric. (Which is a shame, since multiclass F/Cs are arguably more powerful, anyway.)
If you're just starting a fresh character in BG2, though, F(7) duals are amazing because you can start them as soon as you gain control of your character and they're almost complete by the time you escape Chateau Irenicus.
When creating a fresh character, you start with 89,000 XP, which isn't technically "quest" XP, but should be counted since it's guaranteed XP that doesn't come from sources that are divvied up evenly. (This could be as high as 161,000 if you're importing from TotSC.)
Escaping Chateau Irenicus is worth 34,500 XP, (though obviously it's impossible to distribute that over a full party of 6). Most of the Stronghold quests award ~45,000 XP, (ranging from 44,000 for the Planar Prison to 45,750 for the Unseeing Eye). Druid grove gives 18,000, but you gain another 25,250 for the Djinni quest for a total of 43,250. If we just round everything to 45,000, that's 360,000 quest XP from stronghold quests.
Most non-stronghold quests typically don't award quest XP, but some do. I already mentioned the Djinni quest. Freeing the slaves gets everyone 38,000. "Helping" Xzar is worth 35,500. The Fallen Paladins net you 17,500. The Limited Wish quest gets you 16,500. Lilarcor gets you 18,000.
You get another 45,000 from turning in the money to Bayle, plus 28,500 for each of the first two main plot quests in chapter 3 and 50,000 for the third quest. It's possible I'm missing some, but if you do a relatively completionist run-through, this should be everything you get by the time you leave for Spellhold, (ignoring Watcher's Keep as ToB content).
Above, I estimated that I'm usually leaving for Spellhold with about 1.5m XP in a party-of-6, relatively-completionist runthrough. If we assume that my 1.5m XP for charname estimate is correct, then 761,000 of that 1.5m came from quest experience, which works out to just over 50%.
Chapter 4: you get 38,500 XP if you take the crazy way in, 29,500 for opening the face-gate, 29,500 for opening the minotaur-gate, 51,250 for completing the tests, either 58,500 or 60,500 for resolving Sahuagin city, for a total of 209,250 (maybe 170,750 if you get in through Perth, though I'm not positive on that).
Chapter 5: 25,000 for helping the deep gnomes, 78,500 for helping Adalon, 28,000 for "killing" the deep gnomes, 30,000 for "killing" Solaufein, 22,000 for fetching the blood, 25,000 for the egg sacrifice, a total of 200,000.
Chapter 6: 55,000 for killing Bodhi and grabbing the Rhynn Lanthorn, 74,500 for giving it to Elhan, and another 74,500 when Elhan opens the way to Suldanessar. There's another 204,000.
Chapter 7: 65,000 for summoning Rillifane. I don't believe there's any quest XP in Hell.
Adding it all up and assuming I haven't missed any other quest XP (definitely a possibility), then over the entire course of Shadows of Amn, (not counting Watcher's Keep), you'll get about 1.44m quest XP. Potentially 38,500 less if you enter Spellhold through the front gate, potentially 79,000 more if you imported from BG1, so let's just call it 1.4-1.5m total.
The original BG2 experience cap was 2.95m XP. I'm usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.0m XP, or maybe just north. If we assume I earned 1.4m quest XP and my Charname finishes with 3.5m XP, quest XP represents 40% of my total. If we assume 1.5m quest XP and my Charname finishes with 3.0m XP, quest XP represents 50% of my total.
40-50% feels like a pretty reasonable ballpark range for the amount of XP that will come from quest XP in Shadows of Amn in a typical party-of-6 run. It's a huge, huge fraction.
From these figures, we can actually infer a range of possible outcomes in smaller-party runs, too. If we assume that you finish with 3.0m XP and quest XP represents 50% of that total, then here's how much XP Charname will finish with based on party size, as well as how much "extra" XP that represents from kicking out the last party member.
3.0m XP in a party of 6
3.3m XP in a party of 5 (+0.3m XP)
3.75m XP in a party of 4 (+0.45m XP)
4.5m XP in a party of 3 (+0.75m XP)
6.0m XP in a party of 2 (+1.5m XP)
10.5m XP in a solo run (+4.5m XP)
If we take the more generous assumption of 3.5m XP with quest XP representing 40% of that, then Charname will finish SoA with:
3.5m XP in a party of 6
3.92m XP in a party of 5 (+0.42m XP)
4.55m XP in a party of 4 (+0.63m XP)
5.6m XP in a party of 3 (+1.05m XP)
7.7m XP in a party of 2 (+2.1m XP)
14.0m XP in a solo run (+6.3m XP)
Intuitively, the former list matches my experiences a bit better, but I'm providing both just to be thorough. Anyway, the larger takeaway is just that if you're kicking out 1 or 2 party members to turbocharge your XP gain, it's not going to make a huge impact. If you really want to speed up your leveling, you should be playing with a party of 3 or fewer.