It's probably because thieves demand some of the most awkward and intensive micromanagement of any class in the game. Thieves can deal absurd damage but they can't do it by simply pressing a button and selecting an enemy. They rely on position-based damage (backstabbing), hit and run and proper trap placement. It's telling that most people just stick a ranged weapon on their thieves and control the rest of their party even though their damage is pathetic that way. I'd argue they're even harder than mages to use optimally.
Nothing so complicated. It's simply that rogues (thieves and bards) need a bit of creativity and resourcefulness to be used properly.
Among other things using traps, for example, is a lot easier than pre-buffing and all that kind of micro, but you have to actually know that the option exists in the first place and you need to be constantly (and actively) thinking of ways to use them as you play the game. It's just a different way of playing. Other people prefer to just think purely in terms of direct combat, and I suppose that level of focus is what helps them do better at it. Not a lot of people can do both. Anyway that kind of focus is not very healthy for someone who wants to make the most out of using a rogue since you should be thinking as much in terms of party experience, party gear, what item you need to get to easily beat a specific encounter and a bunch of other out-of-combat factors.
I play with a party of six on core rules with no mods and no reloads and only classic content (non EE). My absolute favorite class is the inquisitor, which is an absolute beast from level 1 to Melissan. Simple, effective, and not a nanosecond of downtime. Cavalier and fighter/thief also do me quite well.
I can speculate on worst classes based on my Icewind Dale experience. I found the assassin kit to be particularly useless. Another really bad one is wild mage (I'm all about no reload).
I love talking about classes and especially my favorite the FT. While I mentioned that the pure class thief was one of the weakest classes I have played, I would have to agree that they are a very useful and an important part of every party. I think some of the thief skills are the most damaging and in some ways gamebreakingly overpowering. Overall the gameplay that a thief brings to the table is some of the most interesting and fun in my opinion. I like thieves very much but I don't consider them as powerful compared to the other pure classes when it comes to destroying enemies. They seem like the best class to mix with others though.
The reason why I find them weaker than other classes is that they are only proficient in their weapons and they have poor THAC0 compared to fighters and they lack the protections of a mage. It's true that a backstab can help make up for the fighting abilities but it's just one focused attack and getting it to work multiple times in a battle does require more effort and sometimes it is just not possible. I like the traps ability and spike trap in particular is killer but it only works in limited situations where you can set them away from an enemy and lure them in. Both abilities do not work at all on some of the boss battles which leaves them at a disadvantage at times. Also they lack magic protection and have worse AC than fighters most of the game outside of a certain kit.
While the thief's abilities are great and some of their unique attacks give them a little oomph they still feel weaker to me on average than a fighter or a mage. Thieves level up fast and run out of things to improve on early in the game. Combining the thief with a fighter gives you the full strength of the thief class with a heavy boost of power from the fighter class. It's just out right superior in my opinion. It's basically a thief on steroids which allows you to kick but harder and still enjoy the deeper gameplay that a thief brings to the table. I believe you can hit level 13/39 with a FT dual so you only sacrifice 1 thief level for 13 levels of fighter abilities which yield more APR way better THAC0 and damage with a larger variety of weapon options early on.
With a FT multi both classes will stop in the 20's but it's enough to get all of the abilities of both classes without any wasted XP. You end up with a higher THAC0 and both HLA pools at the end without the awkward pains of dual classing. You lose some Hitpoints and your character progression is about 1 level behind the whole game but that is a minor penalty for such a powerful combo. You can even make up most of the lost hitpoints at the end of SOA when you get access to UAI and cast the find familiar spell from a scroll.
FMT adds magic protection to the FT combo at the cost of some THAC0 and slower character progression. It's well worth it if you have amped up enemies that do double damage and have advanced AI.
Just some fun stuff to think about for anyone who may have not tried a FT or FMT. I keep coming back to these classes because they combine everything I enjoy the most from the gameplay. I need to break away from them though and give some of these new Beamdog kits a try. I want to play the anti paladin and the dwarven defender next.
My first run through the game was as a vanilla fighter. As a result I have a soft spot for the fighter class and can't wait to jump into the new kits that Beamdog added. I just need to find the time to do it.
I believe you can hit level 13/39 with a FT dual so you only sacrifice 1 thief level for 13 levels of fighter abilities which yield more APR way better THAC0 and damage with a larger variety of weapon options early on.
Could actually do a 14 Fighter and still have enough to get 39. (1.5M+6.38M=7.88M)
With a FT multi both classes will stop in the 20's but it's enough to get all of the abilities of both classes without any wasted XP. You end up with a higher THAC0 and both HLA pools at the end without the awkward pains of dual classing. You lose some Hitpoints and your character progression is about 1 level behind the whole game but that is a minor penalty for such a powerful combo. You can even make up most of the lost hitpoints at the end of SOA when you get access to UAI and cast the find familiar spell from a scroll.
HLA count isn't my forte, but I think it's 11 Fighter and 12 Thief for the F/T compared to 17 for the straight Thief?
FMT adds magic protection to the FT combo at the cost of some THAC0 and slower character progression. It's well worth it if you have amped up enemies that do double damage and have advanced AI.
Just some fun stuff to think about for anyone who may have not tried a FT or FMT. I keep coming back to these classes because they combine everything I enjoy the most from the gameplay. I need to break away from them though and give some of these new Beamdog kits a try. I want to play the anti paladin and the dwarven defender next.
My first run through the game was as a vanilla fighter. As a result I have a soft spot for the fighter class and can't wait to jump into the new kits that Beamdog added. I just need to find the time to do it.
I originally player Ranger and Archer pre-EE, but then I too discovered the joys of F/T once the EE came and I revisted the BG series.
I have always played my Ranger or F/T Protagonist in the the role of a scout/skirmisher, first clearing the map visibility while the party sits around, and then lots of hide and fade ambushes with backstab or bow-kite critters towards the group. Does result in him getting upwards of 95% of the party kills and kill exp though.
I don't triple-class though, that just seems extreme, and my NPCs pack PLENTY of casters. Practically everyone, actually.
Sorcerer's are one of my lower classes even though most love them. They aren't bad by any means but that is how it is.
I actually enjoy the flavor of the Shape Shifter Druid, the Wild Mage, and the Dwarven Defender now that it's in. So those tend to be towards the top of my list. But I don't usually play for total power gaming. I play a bit more to relax because work sucks.
HLA count isn't my forte, but I think it's 11 Fighter and 12 Thief for the F/T compared to 17 for the straight Thief?
Yes, 23 for the F/T vs. 17 for a pureclass Thief. Also worth noting that there is a *huge* XP gap between thief level 39 and thief level 40 (1.62m XP, even bigger than the gap between Druid 14 and Druid 15), so in practice the pureclass thief will be stuck on 16 HLAs for forever while the F/T keeps merrily gaining.
Also, just because you gain 11 HLAs from your fighter levels and 12 from your thief levels doesn't mean you have to take 11 fighter HLAs and 12 thief HLAs. You could just as easily take, say, 23 spike traps. The ability to use levels from one class to take HLAs from the other is the biggest selling point of multiclass combinations over dual-classes, IMO. (That and Shorty Saves, of course.)
I agree. The benefit is not only the number of HLA but the fact that you can pick and choose from both pools any time in the game. When you get 3million XP for your first HLA you will have already dueled over to a thief so you will be stuck with only thief HLAs. As a FT multi you will have access to both fighter and thief HLAs each time you level up after you reach 3 million XP. This allows you to mix and match HLAs. You can use critical strike double damage in combination with a time stop trap to back stab for additional quintuple damage for example.
When dual classing you can go up to level 14 as a fighter and still reach level 39 as a thief but really, the extra fighter level will not grant you any more thaco, APR or hitpoints so I figure it is best to just do it at level 13 in order to unlock both classes as soon as possible.
Adding the mage abilities into the mix with a FMT multi will keep you from leveling up 20 levels as a thief with no pay off. It's a more efficient use of XP in some ways. I admit I have to question if it is worth the pay off using the vanilla game due to the slower progression and lower thaco but with difficulty mods the ability to cast buffs and protections on yourself really is worth the slower progression. Ascension on insane with SCS or LOB mode with SCS both benefit greatly from the added mage protections that a FMT has.
The multi class does away with playing as a single class and then starting over as another single class. You get all of your abilities right away with more HLA variety at the end and higher thaco and less wasted XP on ultra high thief levels that gain you next to nothing. For this reason I prefer the FT multi over the FT dual. You can also be a half orc with the multi option which gives you higher strength and dex scores. It might matter if you are not using CF.
Thief (Assassin) isn't so bad, if you know how to micromanage and you always do a proper scouting + setup for the battles (at least the difficult ones).
Thief is not the easiest, and certainly would be almost nigh impossible as a solo run, but boy do they feel rewarding when you use them right.
I remember one of my last playthroughs, I managed to 'solo' (I quote, because I had a party, but I did not utilize them) to take out the Fire Giant's lair in BG2. I literally went from room to room, initiating combat with backstabs, getting morale failures on the Fire Giants (who would've thought it were possible!?) and chasing them down with my dual-wielding Str/Dex based Assassin.
I literally would explode most enemies from a successful backstab. I just wish the BG1 Assassin wasn't so gimped, as you don't have access to improved backstab multiplier until BG2.
That isn't to say that some characters deserve this kind of progression, just like mages, sometimes the hard early road leads to the transcended godlike PC. Now, Assassin's don't become "OP" at any point, but if you know how to utilize their kit, they are their own reward.
In terms of Solo run? I'd say Kensai/Mage takes the cake for OP.
In terms of Party play? So many options depending on your party makeup, but I would say the safest bet is Cleric (I managed to do this playing on Core Ruleset as a child, which I think should speak for itself)
Yeah, "underpowered" (meaning too weak to finish the game) is a lot different from simply not being as strong as other options. Finishing the game as a singleclass thief is eminently possible and can actually be highly entertaining as it forces you to think about stealth, positioning, etc in a way you don't have to do with other classes. However, there are tremendous synergies with mage, whose buffs can make you nearly invulnerable and whose knock/invisibility spells mean you don't need to put any points in stealth/locks, and with fighter, whose extra attacks per round dramatically improve a thief's offensive staying power.
The various dualing options people have mentioned, like kensai/thief and kensai/mage, are also strong but frankly lose some luster in the latter part of the game because you're limited to mage HLAs.
They basically trade some micromanaging for other micromanaging and what they see as advantages.
As for Underpowered. Too Weak to finish the game is not really what it means. But how many translate it. It actually means a noticeable and irreconcilable lack in power compared to other classes/combinations.
Not being able to cast while shape changed is part of why the shapeshifter Druid gets this label from many because it's claws are a little weak against certain enemies magical damage wise and you have to choose between casting and physical fighting. however it works well for one of my preferred style of play. specially when I get a number of times per day that I can transform. I like to bombard them from a distance and while they are closing and then shape change to take out the melee range.
Comments
It's probably because thieves demand some of the most awkward and intensive micromanagement of any class in the game. Thieves can deal absurd damage but they can't do it by simply pressing a button and selecting an enemy. They rely on position-based damage (backstabbing), hit and run and proper trap placement. It's telling that most people just stick a ranged weapon on their thieves and control the rest of their party even though their damage is pathetic that way. I'd argue they're even harder than mages to use optimally.
Among other things using traps, for example, is a lot easier than pre-buffing and all that kind of micro, but you have to actually know that the option exists in the first place and you need to be constantly (and actively) thinking of ways to use them as you play the game. It's just a different way of playing. Other people prefer to just think purely in terms of direct combat, and I suppose that level of focus is what helps them do better at it. Not a lot of people can do both.
Anyway that kind of focus is not very healthy for someone who wants to make the most out of using a rogue since you should be thinking as much in terms of party experience, party gear, what item you need to get to easily beat a specific encounter and a bunch of other out-of-combat factors.
I can speculate on worst classes based on my Icewind Dale experience. I found the assassin kit to be particularly useless. Another really bad one is wild mage (I'm all about no reload).
The reason why I find them weaker than other classes is that they are only proficient in their weapons and they have poor THAC0 compared to fighters and they lack the protections of a mage. It's true that a backstab can help make up for the fighting abilities but it's just one focused attack and getting it to work multiple times in a battle does require more effort and sometimes it is just not possible. I like the traps ability and spike trap in particular is killer but it only works in limited situations where you can set them away from an enemy and lure them in. Both abilities do not work at all on some of the boss battles which leaves them at a disadvantage at times. Also they lack magic protection and have worse AC than fighters most of the game outside of a certain kit.
While the thief's abilities are great and some of their unique attacks give them a little oomph they still feel weaker to me on average than a fighter or a mage. Thieves level up fast and run out of things to improve on early in the game. Combining the thief with a fighter gives you the full strength of the thief class with a heavy boost of power from the fighter class. It's just out right superior in my opinion. It's basically a thief on steroids which allows you to kick but harder and still enjoy the deeper gameplay that a thief brings to the table. I believe you can hit level 13/39 with a FT dual so you only sacrifice 1 thief level for 13 levels of fighter abilities which yield more APR way better THAC0 and damage with a larger variety of weapon options early on.
With a FT multi both classes will stop in the 20's but it's enough to get all of the abilities of both classes without any wasted XP. You end up with a higher THAC0 and both HLA pools at the end without the awkward pains of dual classing. You lose some Hitpoints and your character progression is about 1 level behind the whole game but that is a minor penalty for such a powerful combo. You can even make up most of the lost hitpoints at the end of SOA when you get access to UAI and cast the find familiar spell from a scroll.
FMT adds magic protection to the FT combo at the cost of some THAC0 and slower character progression. It's well worth it if you have amped up enemies that do double damage and have advanced AI.
Just some fun stuff to think about for anyone who may have not tried a FT or FMT. I keep coming back to these classes because they combine everything I enjoy the most from the gameplay. I need to break away from them though and give some of these new Beamdog kits a try. I want to play the anti paladin and the dwarven defender next.
My first run through the game was as a vanilla fighter. As a result I have a soft spot for the fighter class and can't wait to jump into the new kits that Beamdog added. I just need to find the time to do it.
I have always played my Ranger or F/T Protagonist in the the role of a scout/skirmisher, first clearing the map visibility while the party sits around, and then lots of hide and fade ambushes with backstab or bow-kite critters towards the group. Does result in him getting upwards of 95% of the party kills and kill exp though.
I don't triple-class though, that just seems extreme, and my NPCs pack PLENTY of casters. Practically everyone, actually.
I actually enjoy the flavor of the Shape Shifter Druid, the Wild Mage, and the Dwarven Defender now that it's in. So those tend to be towards the top of my list. But I don't usually play for total power gaming. I play a bit more to relax because work sucks.
Also, just because you gain 11 HLAs from your fighter levels and 12 from your thief levels doesn't mean you have to take 11 fighter HLAs and 12 thief HLAs. You could just as easily take, say, 23 spike traps. The ability to use levels from one class to take HLAs from the other is the biggest selling point of multiclass combinations over dual-classes, IMO. (That and Shorty Saves, of course.)
When dual classing you can go up to level 14 as a fighter and still reach level 39 as a thief but really, the extra fighter level will not grant you any more thaco, APR or hitpoints so I figure it is best to just do it at level 13 in order to unlock both classes as soon as possible.
Adding the mage abilities into the mix with a FMT multi will keep you from leveling up 20 levels as a thief with no pay off. It's a more efficient use of XP in some ways. I admit I have to question if it is worth the pay off using the vanilla game due to the slower progression and lower thaco but with difficulty mods the ability to cast buffs and protections on yourself really is worth the slower progression. Ascension on insane with SCS or LOB mode with SCS both benefit greatly from the added mage protections that a FMT has.
The multi class does away with playing as a single class and then starting over as another single class. You get all of your abilities right away with more HLA variety at the end and higher thaco and less wasted XP on ultra high thief levels that gain you next to nothing. For this reason I prefer the FT multi over the FT dual. You can also be a half orc with the multi option which gives you higher strength and dex scores. It might matter if you are not using CF.
Wired: Beserker or Beserker/Cleric, Shadowdancer/Mage, Sorcerer, Wizard Slayer/Druid or Wizard Slayer/Thief
Divinely Inspired: Inquisitor
Can you explain what do you mean with your post?
I just mean good/bad in terms of raw power, ease of use, and diversity of skill from my perspective
Thief is not the easiest, and certainly would be almost nigh impossible as a solo run, but boy do they feel rewarding when you use them right.
I remember one of my last playthroughs, I managed to 'solo' (I quote, because I had a party, but I did not utilize them) to take out the Fire Giant's lair in BG2. I literally went from room to room, initiating combat with backstabs, getting morale failures on the Fire Giants (who would've thought it were possible!?) and chasing them down with my dual-wielding Str/Dex based Assassin.
I literally would explode most enemies from a successful backstab. I just wish the BG1 Assassin wasn't so gimped, as you don't have access to improved backstab multiplier until BG2.
That isn't to say that some characters deserve this kind of progression, just like mages, sometimes the hard early road leads to the transcended godlike PC. Now, Assassin's don't become "OP" at any point, but if you know how to utilize their kit, they are their own reward.
In terms of Solo run? I'd say Kensai/Mage takes the cake for OP.
In terms of Party play? So many options depending on your party makeup, but I would say the safest bet is Cleric (I managed to do this playing on Core Ruleset as a child, which I think should speak for itself)
It just says that Thieves are not underpowered.
The various dualing options people have mentioned, like kensai/thief and kensai/mage, are also strong but frankly lose some luster in the latter part of the game because you're limited to mage HLAs.
As for Underpowered. Too Weak to finish the game is not really what it means. But how many translate it. It actually means a noticeable and irreconcilable lack in power compared to other classes/combinations.
Not being able to cast while shape changed is part of why the shapeshifter Druid gets this label from many because it's claws are a little weak against certain enemies magical damage wise and you have to choose between casting and physical fighting. however it works well for one of my preferred style of play. specially when I get a number of times per day that I can transform. I like to bombard them from a distance and while they are closing and then shape change to take out the melee range.