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Underdark Architecture, Logistics and Building Materials

ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
First things first: This thread is not specifically about BG, IWD & Co. but rather about general Forgotten Realms lore.

I have been doing some research about the Underdark lately, specifically trying to fill in the gaps that most books/games seem to leave out, barely touch upon or are plainly badly designed. As you can tell from the title, I am refering to the more mundain aspects of life in the Underdark.

Upon re-reading the Drizzt comic books, I specifically got hung up on the design of the Svirfneblin town of Blingdenstone, as shown in book 2: Exile. Let's see:



Now, the discription of a "typical" Svirfneblin town from "The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings":
The cities of the Deep Gnomes are vast and complex places. Many layers of caverns, tunnels, and buildings are connected by narrow corridors and spiraling staircases. Generally, however, at least the central part of the city will occupy a single large cavern, with narrow streets winding among tall stone buildings. If large stalagmites are present, high-ranking Svirfneblin will claim these and excavate the interiors for the private homes; most residences, however, are carved into the natural bedrock of the earth.
That doesn't particularly match up.
Here's another interesting tidbit about Svirfneblin and rubies, from the same book:
The gem that most draws the interest and devotion of the Svirfneblin is the ruby, which is the predominant symbol of the race. The Deep Gnomes view these crimson stones with reverence approaching awe-so much so that they are never used for mundane practices such as ornamentation of garments, weapons, or armor. Rubies are reserved for sacred purposes and are often employed to decorate artifacts that are dedicated to the Svirfneblin gods. They are also favored by Deep Gnome monarchs, so much so that a Svirfneblin king or queen might have a full ring of rubies around his or her crown, with others of the precious stone set in the throne and sceptre.
I find this part worth mentioning because A. neither King Schicktick's garments nor his throne room feature any rubies and B. it implies that other gems tend to be worked into decorations and such.

Have another snippet (this time about gnomes in general):
Carpentry is another skill that demonstrates the gnomish penchant for elaboration. Whereas dwarves will hew timbers to shore up a mine shaft and at need can make rough tables, beds, and chairs for their own use, gnomes have a compulsion to cover every available inch with decoration which goes far beyond utility. Thus gnome miners will often use their breaks to carve delicate designs into the support timbers (taking care not to weaken the beams!), often having friendly contests between different shifts as each continues the other’s work. Gnomish furniture is a marvel of fine woodcarving, with a multitude of baroque detail.
So, based on these descriptions alone, the visual presentation of Blingdenstone in that book seems to be way off. Of course different towns and settlements feature different layouts and quirks and I am not sure how the town is discribed in the novel it's based on, but yeah. My point is, trying to get a good idea of what these towns should look like appears to be rather difficult.

Also, in the pictures above you can tell that the doors and such seem to be made of wood.
Now, uhm, this is the Underdark and Svirfneblin are notorious for their reclusive behaviour.
Where in the nine Hells would they get this much wood?
I don't think trees are a common sight in the depths below and I also doubt that trading with surfacers is common enough to have wood in large enough quantities to warrant it as a common building material.

This leads to the next question: What type of building materials would they actually have available and how would these materials influence the architecture and the interior designs?

Unlike the Drow, Svirfneblin don't seem to have powerful transmutation magics that allows them to just form materials based on their will, instead they seem to build things by hand. Which makes sense, given that they are known for their craftiness.

Now, with my very limited knowledge of geology and speleology, I am gonna guess that the only building materials they actually have are different types of stone, limited amounts of metals (the book indicates that gnomes are more into gem mining rather than ore mining, so I doubt it would be enough metal to actually warant entire structures or furnitures made of mostly or even all metal), types of cement/ clay (I think) and certain wood like types of mushroom. I would also think glass and certain types of crystals could be utilised beyond just looking pretty. Bone and chitin are also a possibility. Also maybe certain body parts of fish can be used as building materials?

These materials of course vastly limit the types of furniture, especially the lack of wood.
I mean, try moving around a chair made of massive rock. Not happening.

So here is what I am immagining: There is barely any movable furniture. Shelves, Tables, chairs, etc. are cut directly into the stone and immovable. Since gnomes don't create fabric in general (which is also based on the books, they only trade it) only the richest svirfneblin have curtains, pillows and such made from spider silk fabric (traded from drow). Most other things that would be typically made of fabric are instead made of leather and furs. (At first I thought that maybe Svirfneblin also herd Rothe and maybe could use their fur to make fabric, but I couldn't find anything on that so I guess not.)

As for tools and weapons, I believe these would be mainly made of metal (duh), ceramics, bone, chitin and the afformentioned wood-like mushrooms. For example, pottery and bottles with corks made from mushroom seem likely. Also hilts for pickaxes and swords made of shroom or bone.

For comparision: Granitehome in BG2



See all those beds, barrels, tables, chairs, chests and whatnot?
I really don't think these are probable for this culture.

Also, what does the lack of wood mean for the mining?
What do they use for beams to keep mining tunnels from caving in on them?

____________________________________

Well, those are my thoughts & observations so far.
I would love to hear your ideas on this, not just on Svirfneblin but on other Underdark civilisations in general (though I guess Drow are a bit lame in this topic, because they can just do anything by magic :V)

However, and I have to be adamant on this:
Please make absolutely sure to source the information you share here, to proof that they are reliable.
Headcanons/ speculations are also very welcome, but please make it clear that this is not official information
Post edited by Buttercheese on

Comments

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    Another idea for a wood substitute could be an MDF like material made from the aforementioned mycelium in combination with animal glue.

    As for weapon and tool hilts, maybe some sort of super light alloy could work, but Gnomes don't seem that big on metals. Might make sense for Duegar and Drow though.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,079
    I thought they got their wood from subterranean trees. Didn't Peter of the North tell you all about subterranean trees?
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    edited May 2017
    While we're speaking about the various Underdark architectures, I always wondered how the heck Beholders & Co. managed to pull off the creation of their marvelous cities. I mean, eyestalks for hands come with a pretty hefty disadvantage when it comes to carpenting, no? :smirk: Luckily there is the 3.5th edition accessory book Lords of Madness to enlighten us:
    "The appearance of a beholder hive varies wildly. Some are little more than tangled underground mazes of chambers and circular passageways carved by a multitude of disintegrate eye rays, while others are fantastic cities of alien, disturbing architecture. These hive cities are built by charmed minions, with finishing touches by particularly artistic beholders that use their disintegrate eye rays to carve sculptures from solid stone or metal."
    --- Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations - Chapter 3 The Eye Tyrants, page 49
    That being said, my favourite Underdark architecture style still remains that of the Aboleth. In hindsight it was truly a shame that BGII:SoA only featured one, single Aboleth. And in a bloody tank no less...
    "Aboleth cities are truly alien and terrifying places, wholly primeval in feeling and offensive to those used to structures with hard edges, straight lines, and subdued colors. Aboleth cities are built completely underwater, and because the waters help support the buildings, the towers and spires can be of a much greater magnitude than anything on the surface. These towers feature numerous tunnels and openings to allow water currents to flow around and through them to prevent collapse. Aboleth cities can be raised from the sea floor by the will of the city’s rulers, either through the use of powerful spells or a magic device. The cities then drift through the depths of the sea or rise to the surface and float like horrific islands.

    The buildings of an aboleth city are made of stone, built with the aid of magic like "stone shape", but sometimes constructed with talented and well-directed slave labor. Aboleth buildings might be composed of brooding, drooping shapes that look melted or cancerous, or they might be towering, thin spires with multiple twisted crenellations and jagged spikes. All together, an aboleth city looks like discarded shells from massive prehistoric shellfish scattered upon the ocean floor.

    ---Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations - Chapter 2 The Deep Masters, page 31
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    edited May 2017

    I thought they got their wood from subterranean trees. Didn't Peter of the North tell you all about subterranean trees?

    I think it was wood in nether regions rather than subterranean.

    I guess the forgotten realms has better courses in construction than the courses I took. Concrete 5 was of course glorious to take.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317


    For comparision: Granitehome in BG2



    See all those beds, barrels, tables, chairs, chests and whatnot?
    I really don't think these are probable for this culture.

    Also, what does the lack of wood mean for the mining?
    What do they use for beams to keep mining tunnels from caving in on them?

    Also I count 22 beds (counting double beds as two beds) but 32 chairs.

    Guess they must get a lot of adventurers coming there way? :)
  • Sam_Sam_ Member Posts: 172
    lroumen said:

    I thought they got their wood from subterranean trees. Didn't Peter of the North tell you all about subterranean trees?

    I think it was wood in nether regions rather than subterranean.

    // creator  : D :\Program Files\Infinity Engine Modding Tools\NearInfinity\NearInfinity.jar (v2.1-20170416)
    // game : D :\Program Files\Black Isle\Baldur's Gate
    // resource : COKSMTH.DLG
    // source : data\Dialog.bif
    // dialog : dialog.tlk
    // dialogF : (none)

    BEGIN ~COKSMTH~

    IF ~True()
    ~ THEN BEGIN 0 // from:
    SAY #10801 /* ~Move along friends, nothing to see here. Just a humble woodsman doing a little spelunking. ~ */
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10812 /* ~This is an odd place to meet a woodsman. Are you not afraid of those baby wyverns behind you?~ */ GOTO 1
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10813 /* ~Have you seen any bandits or otherwise untrustworthy people around?~ */ GOTO 2
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10816 /* ~What are you doing here? Tell me now, before I kill you!~ */ GOTO 3
    END

    IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 1 // from: 0.0
    SAY #10815 /* ~You just don't know the subtleties of wood and wood-related activities. These creatures are docile and...and it is worth the risk. Um...even the darkest of caves can be a rewarding experience for the woodsman that knows how to handle himself. Why...um...subterranean trees can yield the best material for carving...ahhh...ornamental...things.~ */
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10814 /* ~Subterranean trees? Are you quite sure you know what you're talking about?~ */ GOTO 4
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10817 /* ~Alrighty then, I shall leave you to your work. Far be it from me to get between a man and his wood...so to speak.~ */ GOTO 5
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10818 /* ~I think you are lying to me! Give one reason why I shouldn't kill you!~ */ GOTO 3
    END

    IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 2 // from: 0.1
    SAY #10819 /* ~Bandits? Why would you be looking for bandits? Not that I've seen any, of course. It's been pretty quiet around here. Just my wyverns and...I mean, just THESE wyverns and me. Nothing out of the ordinary at all. Are you implying something?~ */
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10826 /* ~Nothing at all. I'll be on my way.~ */ GOTO 5
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10827 /* ~Do your actions not seem odd to you?~ */ GOTO 6
    END

    IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 3 // from: 0.2 1.2
    SAY #10820 /* ~I see that you have no use for beating around the bush. Well, so be it. I cast aside my master woodsman facade. You have interrupted my little wyvern-training session and likely set my schedule back by days. I have worked long and hard to gain their trust, but if I they are to be ready for duty at the mine I shall have to placate these beasts with meat! Fight, for you shall die if you lose!~ */
    IF ~~ THEN DO ~Enemy()
    ~ EXIT
    END

    IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 4 // from: 1.0
    SAY #10821 /* ~Certainly! Have I given cause for you to doubt me? Of course not! Everything is just as it should be. There is nothing untoward about me or my wyver...I mean, there is nothing untoward about THESE wyverns. Are you implying something?~ */
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10822 /* ~Nothing at all. I'll be on my way.~ */ GOTO 5
    IF ~~ THEN REPLY #10823 /* ~Do your actions not seem odd to you?~ */ GOTO 6
    END

    IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 5 // from: 1.1 2.0 4.0
    SAY #10824 /* ~A pity you had not made that decision before you entered my little sanctuary. I suspect by your questions that you have doubts about my identity, and I cannot let you leave if you are going to tell others of me. I cannot have more interruptions. You have already set back my little training session just by being here. If I am to have these beasts ready to serve in the mines I must sooth them with meat, meat that you will provide! ~ */
    IF ~~ THEN DO ~Enemy()
    ~ EXIT
    END

    IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 6 // from: 2.1 4.1
    SAY #10825 /* ~Um...not at all. It is not uncommon for...for a woodsman to seek the comfort of natural caverns and...and...oh to blazes with it! I can tell by your questions that you suspect me of lying and I tire of this ruse! No, I am not a simple woodsman! I am training these beasts to serve as guards, and now that you have interrupted me I shall never have them ready for the mine. Your presence has agitated them; they will be unmanageable for days now! Perhaps...perhaps I can placate them with meat. Your meat!~ */
    IF ~~ THEN DO ~Enemy()
    ~ EXIT
    END
    Only reference to "Subterranean trees" I could find.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    The simplest answer is simply that the lore of such a complex fiction as D&D is grossly inconsistent in many details, simply because it's ridiculously difficult to think of everything, remember everything, and tell everyone ever writing anything about it all that they should be taking care of.

    You can come up with potentially plausible explanations, but it's very hard to make them consistent, internally coherent, practicable, and not overly contrived. "It's magic" (or the appropriate equivalent superpower) is a convenient excuse all too often employed there, though it does make sense in certain spots - particularly for races that are notoriously arrogant about their superior abilities, magical or otherwise; e.g. Beholders, Mind Flayers, Aboleths, etc.

    Mundane-seeming problems like 'where does the wood come from' find far too little recognition in fiction in general. I love details like that, but I can see how many people just don't care and would find a two-page passage about the difficulties of surface-wood trading boring and irrelevant. Sometimes you can weave it in casually, like e.g. mentioning things that would 'ordinarily' be wood be something else, but that's often too veiled and/or not detailed enough. Tough writing!
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