What's your point? It can also apply to Jan, Hexxat or any thief. Imoen does not have perfect 100% lock picks or find traps, so even she will need help in the latter stages for her thieving skills.
In vanilla, this is correct. However, the developers originally shafted Imoen out of some skill points she was supposed to have based on her thief level, and the EE corrected this. As of BG2EE, Imoen now has 100% Open Locks and 95% Find Traps. (I would have preferred 100% Find Traps and 95% Open Locks, but that's a minor nit.)
As for "You get Imoen late and she's behind in levels": one, then don't get her late and rush Spellhold, and two, her being few levels behind doesn't matter jack.
Being a few levels behind don't matter jack? Levels are the primary determinant of a mage's power! Fighters are all about their gear, Thieves are all about their skills, mages are all about their levels.
Let's say you get Imoen back when she's 750,000 XP behind Nalia, a totally plausible scenario. (If you really mine Chapter 2 before leaving for Spellhold, this will be more like a 1.125m XP gap.) Since by the time you recruit her she's already hit the linear XP progression part of the mage's XP curve, this means she will always and forever be two levels behind Nalia. (Three levels behind in the completionist scenario.)
What does two levels behind look like? It means that up until Imoen gets 3 million XP, Nalia will always have access to spells one full level higher than Imoen. Always. When Imoen gets her first Mislead, Nalia says "that's cute" and drops a Project Image. When Imoen gets that Project Image, Nalia says "that's nice, but mine can cast Abi-Dalshim's Horrid Wilting". When Imoen finally unlocks ADHW, Nalia says "I prefer to cast them after I've literally stopped time first".
Even when Imoen gets 3m XP, (putting Nalia at 3.75m XP), Nalia will have an extra level 9 spell until Imoen finally reaches level 22, which is 4.5m XP, (5.25m for Nalia). So Imoen says "hey Nalia, look, I can stop time, too!", and Nalia responds with "that's nice, but can you also cast your entire spellbook while time is stopped?" And then Imoen hits level 20 and gains that ability and Nalia says "cool. When you're done, can you change into a mindflayer and suck the brains out of helpless time-stopped enemies?"
(Nevermind that Nalia also casts her spells at a higher level until Imoen hits level 20, too.)
This is a *huge* power differential. Linear warriors, quadratic mages and all that jazz. What's everyone's favorite final reward in the Deck of Many Things? Why, the 1m XP of course, because 1m is a metric ton of XP, and that's also around the differential Imoen will be facing if you don't rush Spellhold. (Really, more, because that 1m is divided up among six party members, meaning each individual party member is only getting 167k.)
Now, the game is beatable just fine with an underleveled Imoen, and she'll still be contributing to the party. Once you've got the meta down it's not like vanilla BG2 is hard. You're free to make non-optimal choices, (from a powergaming standpoint), and indeed, almost all of us do on almost every run. I roll Halflings instead of Dwarves because I like their paperdoll better. It's not optimal from a powergaming standpoint, but I don't want to be staring at an ugly paperdoll every time I open up my inventory.
But from a strict powergaming standpoint, Nalia is "better" than Imoen unless you rush Spellhold. (And rushing Spellhold presents its own problems, leaving you undergeared and underleveled in the underdark, making the "Chapter 2" content trivial and boring once you finally get around to it in Chapter 6, etc.) As I said, I'll trade two ring slots for two mage levels any day of the week. Fighter levels? No way. Mage levels? Hell yeah.
What's your point? It can also apply to Jan, Hexxat or any thief. Imoen does not have perfect 100% lock picks or find traps, so even she will need help in the latter stages for her thieving skills.
No and no.
In BG2, any pure or even multi-class Thief will gain levels so fast you'll be able to easily max out Find Traps, Open Locks, Pick Pockets, and almost anything else you want.
Imoen's Open Locks and Find Traps values are enough for the entire saga without relying on any PoMT or ring. The only possible exception to this is if you gave her elven chain which will lower her thieving skills.
As for "You get Imoen late and she's behind in levels": one, then don't get her late and rush Spellhold, and two, her being few levels behind doesn't matter jack.
As SomeSort said in the other thread: "As for Nalia, she gets exactly as many thief levels as she needs to 100% cover all traps and locks in the entire game (with minimal Knock supplementation, which is NBD). So "worst thief in the game" doesn't really mean much. From a locks/traps standpoint, thieving skills are threshold skills; either you have enough or you don't. Nalia does, so she's a fine thief. And in addition to being all the thief you'd ever need, she's either the 2nd or 3rd best mage in the game, (depending on how you feel about Neera). In theory, Imoen is equally good as a mage, but in practice she'll usually be a couple of levels behind Nalia.
From a raw power standpoint, Nalia is one of the strongest NPCs in the saga. If you really wanted to nominate a thief for "worst NPC", and you don't want to consider Yoshimo (because pure-class thieves, even bounty hunters, are underpowered), then I'd say Jan is the worst "thiefy" NPC. He's not giving you anything more than Nalia provides from a locks/traps standpoint, and he's giving up half of his mage progression to do it."
Nalia is more than sufficient as a thief, while being able to dual-role as a VERY competent caster with good HP, great stats, and so forth. Jan gives up half his mage progression to be a good thief (not worth the trade) and Hexxat is weak because she is a single class thief. Hexxat also requires the annoying cloak toggling as well, so she is actually MORE fiddly than Nalia. As for Imoen, she is in an awkward spot, so if you want her to be viable you have to get her early (ie, base your ENTIRE gameplay for one character).
So nah, Nalia wins here, out of sheer pragmatism is nothing else.
Also, as SomeSort once again pointed out "If she and Imoen were regularly the same level, I'd take Imoen every time. But they're not, and I'd rather have two extra mage levels than two extra ring slots."
As for "You get Imoen late and she's behind in levels": one, then don't get her late and rush Spellhold, and two, her being few levels behind doesn't matter jack.
Being a few levels behind don't matter jack? Levels are the primary determinant of a mage's power! Fighters are all about their gear, Thieves are all about their skills, mages are all about their levels.
Let's say you get Imoen back when she's 750,000 XP behind Nalia, a totally plausible scenario. (If you really mine Chapter 2 before leaving for Spellhold, this will be more like a 1.125m XP gap.) Since by the time you recruit her she's already hit the linear XP progression part of the mage's XP curve, this means she will always and forever be two levels behind Nalia. (Three levels behind in the completionist scenario.)
What does two levels behind look like? It means that up until Imoen gets 3 million XP, Nalia will always have access to spells one full level higher than Imoen. Always. When Imoen gets her first Mislead, Nalia says "that's cute" and drops a Project Image. When Imoen gets that Project Image, Nalia says "that's nice, but mine can cast Abi-Dalshim's Horrid Wilting". When Imoen finally unlocks ADHW, Nalia says "I prefer to cast them after I've literally stopped time first".
Even when Imoen gets 3m XP, (putting Nalia at 3.75m XP), Nalia will have an extra level 9 spell until Imoen finally reaches level 22, which is 4.5m XP, (5.25m for Nalia). So Imoen says "hey Nalia, look, I can stop time, too!", and Nalia responds with "that's nice, but can you also cast your entire spellbook while time is stopped?" And then Imoen hits level 20 and gains that ability and Nalia says "cool. When you're done, can you change into a mindflayer and suck the brains out of helpless time-stopped enemies?"
(Nevermind that Nalia also casts her spells at a higher level until Imoen hits level 20, too.)
This is a *huge* power differential. Linear warriors, quadratic mages and all that jazz. What's everyone's favorite final reward in the Deck of Many Things? Why, the 1m XP of course, because 1m is a metric ton of XP, and that's also around the differential Imoen will be facing if you don't rush Spellhold. (Really, more, because that 1m is divided up among six party members, meaning each individual party member is only getting 167k.)
Now, the game is beatable just fine with an underleveled Imoen, and she'll still be contributing to the party. Once you've got the meta down it's not like vanilla BG2 is hard. You're free to make non-optimal choices, (from a powergaming standpoint), and indeed, almost all of us do on almost every run. I roll Halflings instead of Dwarves because I like their paperdoll better. It's not optimal from a powergaming standpoint, but I don't want to be staring at an ugly paperdoll every time I open up my inventory.
But from a strict powergaming standpoint, Nalia is "better" than Imoen unless you rush Spellhold. (And rushing Spellhold presents its own problems, leaving you undergeared and underleveled in the underdark, making the "Chapter 2" content trivial and boring once you finally get around to it in Chapter 6, etc.) As I said, I'll trade two ring slots for two mage levels any day of the week. Fighter levels? No way. Mage levels? Hell yeah.
Outstanding. Even I learned a lot from this. Thank you very much for posting that! Impossible to argue against the cold hand of pure logic.
Unless you're going to WK "artificially" early, @Montresor_SP, you won't get that STR bonus for Imoen until early-ToB ... and only slightly later (usually in my experience, although there's a random factor in the timing), Imoen would have her STR automatically increased to 10 for free (as part of her development of Bhaalspawn powers in ToB). This therefore seems to me a waste of a stat bonus.
Thus I always give the STR and DEX bonuses to anyone except Imoen, since she'll eventually gain +1 to both of those anyway.
*Shrugs* I adore nally little Nalia and Imoen both, so I always take them both. Can't stand Edwin, even if he came with a pet Tryrannosaur. Every man to his (or woman to her) own taste.
*Shrugs* I adore nally little Nalia and Imoen both, so I always take them both. Can't stand Edwin, even if he came with a pet Tryrannosaur. Every man to his (or woman to her) own taste.
I don't know..... if Edwin came with a pet tyrannosaur that would be pretty badass
*Shrugs* I adore nally little Nalia and Imoen both, so I always take them both. Can't stand Edwin, even if he came with a pet Tryrannosaur. Every man to his (or woman to her) own taste.
Attalus.... Attalus.... Attalus? Is that *you*? It's Azred from Ironworks.
1. Fighters absolutely depend on levels until at least level 13. Midpoint is 17. 21 is when they stop gaining anything, and by then HLAs kick in. Thieves do not only realy on skillpoints, and even if they did, you get skillpoints per level, so it's the same as saying they rely on levels. Plus HLAs.
2. To turn the issue around, Mages rely not so much on levels(especially after level 20 which maxes out all the level-reliant spells) as on spellslots. The difference here is that unlike Thieves' fixed 25 skill points per level, mage slot progression is not linear.
3. Even if we take your 1 million XP difference, which is nonsensical, for a Mage that is about two levels of difference. This is on average two spellslots of difference. Despite your best cherry-picked efforts, this is not an issue at all.
4. Calculating the XP difference at 1 million is nonsensical because if you want to have Imoen in your party, of course you are going to rush Spellhold. Otherwise it's "I run a party with Imoen, except not for half of the game" - yeah, probably not.
5. Rushing Spellhold hardly leaves you underleveled and definitely does not leave you under-geared, as most of the good gear is in Spellhold-Fishpeople-Underdark areas anyways, and they provide a decashitload of XP even without squeezing them out(Clearing all the dungeons)
6. Neither will it leave most Amn content "trivial and boring" - Firkraag, Shadow Dragon, Kangaxx, Secret Rune, sewer Mind Flayers, Lavok, these are all high level encounters/areas.
Wk isn't artificially early for doing it before ToB. There is nothing about it that actually makes it in any way particular tied to any singular point in the game to actually play through it. Simply your own ability to get through it.
To be fair if your playing Completionist, The idea that your making the above ground content "Trivial" or easy compared to the Asylum/Underdark content is fairly pointless in this discussion as well. If your completionist and you do all of the above ground content in Chapter 2 then the Asylum/Underdark stuff isn't all that difficult but some of the above ground content can be. If you Rush to get Imoen and do the Asylum/Underdark content first then some of it is harder and some of the Above ground content is made simpler. You get the same effect either way. About the only way the change might actually be important is if you want to kill certain encounters such as FirKraag, Kangaxx, Etc potentially before you go to the Underdark (even though many wait for Chapter 6 to do so) or to give you a better shot to kill the Silver Dragon/Demon Lord. Two fights that most players don't do either because they don't have to or they don't feel is right for their preffered alignments.
Mods are the only thing that change this balance in some way and if they do that is a separate issue and certainly not the case of every character so rushing to Imoen is perfectly doable. It does not make Nalia more viable than Imoen.
"2. To turn the issue around, Mages rely not so much on levels(especially after level 20 which maxes out all the level-reliant spells) as on spellslots." - And what are spellslots linked to? Levels! Spellslots are directly correlated with levels. Mages are totally level-reliant for viability.
3. Even if we take your 1 million XP difference, which is nonsensical, for a Mage that is about two levels of difference. It has already been explained why it is not nonsensical for the million XP gap (actually, it was argued for less than that - 750k, which is TOTALLY reasonable and even generous). Yes, it is about two levels of difference at least, which is what has been stated. See above for what those two levels of difference mean.
4. Calculating the XP difference at 1 million is nonsensical because if you want to have Imoen in your party, of course you are going to rush Spellhold. There are certain questlines that must be done before Spellhold can be reached. This will equate to a significant XP gap, like around 750k.
5. Rushing Spellhold hardly leaves you underleveled and definitely does not leave you under-geared, as most of the good gear is in Spellhold-Fishpeople-Underdark areas anyways, It leaves you under-geared for the encounters. To get the good gear, you have to be strong enough to obtain it.
"so rushing to Imoen is perfectly doable. It does not make Nalia more viable than Imoen."
Rushing to Imoen literally means you are basing your entire game around her. Since Nalia exists, and can do everything Imoen can, it certainly does make Nalia more viable - and not by just a little bit. Nalia is available immediately, whereas Imoen is well into the game. Nalia is also better in practice, since she can learn spells as you encounter them. With Imoen, you either have to store the scrolls somewhere (meaning you won't access them until chapter 6), or bring them with you to Spellhold (troublesome, as there are so many). Otherwise, you are dealing with an almost empty spellbook. Imoen can ONLY be considered more viable if you are doing an RP run for her actual character (not abilities). For all other purposes, she is simply overshadowed by Nalia (though people have long claimed the exact opposite).
For a full mathematical report of why that is, see SomeSort's post above. It's quite impossible to argue against since it is mathematical, thus not opinion based. It's entirely rooted in number.
1. Fighters absolutely depend on levels until at least level 13. Midpoint is 17. 21 is when they stop gaining anything, and by then HLAs kick in. Thieves do not only realy on skillpoints, and even if they did, you get skillpoints per level, so it's the same as saying they rely on levels. Plus HLAs.
2. To turn the issue around, Mages rely not so much on levels(especially after level 20 which maxes out all the level-reliant spells) as on spellslots. The difference here is that unlike Thieves' fixed 25 skill points per level, mage slot progression is not linear.
3. Even if we take your 1 million XP difference, which is nonsensical, for a Mage that is about two levels of difference. This is on average two spellslots of difference. Despite your best cherry-picked efforts, this is not an issue at all.
4. Calculating the XP difference at 1 million is nonsensical because if you want to have Imoen in your party, of course you are going to rush Spellhold. Otherwise it's "I run a party with Imoen, except not for half of the game" - yeah, probably not.
5. Rushing Spellhold hardly leaves you underleveled and definitely does not leave you under-geared, as most of the good gear is in Spellhold-Fishpeople-Underdark areas anyways, and they provide a decashitload of XP even without squeezing them out(Clearing all the dungeons)
6. Neither will it leave most Amn content "trivial and boring" - Firkraag, Shadow Dragon, Kangaxx, Secret Rune, sewer Mind Flayers, Lavok, these are all high level encounters/areas.
Brevity is indeed the soul of wit. To paraphrase Blaise Pascal, I'm sorry for writing such a long post, I didn't have time to write a short one.
1-2. Obviously "Mages depend on levels, fighters depend on gear, and thieves depend on skills" is a huge simplification and not meant to be law handed down from on high. But consider the following:
A level 10 fighter with the best gear in the game is facing off against a level 20 fighter who is completely naked. Who wins?
A level 10 mage with the best gear in the game is facing off against a level 20 mage who is completely naked. Who wins?
Your party has no thief. You are given a choice between a level 20 thief with 0% in open locks and find traps or a level 10 thief with 100% in open locks and find traps. Which do you bring?
My answers to those questions are "the fighter with all the gear, the mage with all the levels, and the thief with the relevant skills". Maybe your answer is different. Maybe it's not. But that's where I'm coming from when I say that.
Obviously levels help a fighter. They improve his saving throws and his THACO, for one. But so does gear. They improve his APR. But so does gear. Meanwhile, there are plenty of things a fighter *needs* to be viable that levels don't improve at all-- AC or some other form of damage mitigation, status effect protections (though saving throws certainly help there), the ability to pierce enemy protections, etc. For all of this, the fighter needs gear.
But a mage? There's nothing he needs that isn't provided by levels alone, (unless you want to be fussy and count scrolls, too). Every poverty run of BG2 is a caster of some sort. There's a reason for that.
3. The difference doesn't amount to "two spellslots of difference". I spelled out what it amounts to. It amounts to Project Image vs. Mislead, ADHW vs. Project Image, and Time Stop vs. ADHW. It's a big difference!
4. If you have to base your entire run around acquiring an NPC, that's a weakness for the NPC, right? There's no other NPC who that's remotely true of. And besides, plenty of people grab Imoen and yet still do a lot of Chapter 2 before leaving for Spellhold. I'd wager most people who grab Imoen, actually. And for those, 750,000 is pretty much the XP difference you're going to be seeing. 1.125m if you're thorough.
Hell, I have a Paladin sitting in Spellhold right now who *did* rush Imoen. The only Chapter 2 content she did was the Slaver ship, De'Arnise Keep, Windspear / Paladin Stronghold (including Firkraag), and a couple NPC quests (Nalia, Mazzy, Jan). That's it. Experience difference between Nalia and Imoen? 300,000.
6. Rushing Spellhold *will* leave you underleveled and undergeared. Don't know what else to say about that other than "there's a lot of experience and good gear in Chapter 2". Mind Flayer Dungeon and Adalon are hard even for parties who did all of Chapter 2 before leaving. They're brutal for parties who rushed Spellhold.
6. Firkraag, Shadow Dragon, Kangaxx, Secret Rune, and sewer Mind Flayers represent a pretty tiny fraction of Chapter 2 content. The rest is going to be a cakewalk for any post-underdark party.
For a full mathematical report of why that is, see SomeSort's post above. It's quite impossible to argue against since it is mathematical, thus not opinion based. It's entirely rooted in number.
Quite impossible to argue against? Let's not get silly, here.
*Shrugs* I adore nally little Nalia and Imoen both, so I always take them both. Can't stand Edwin, even if he came with a pet Tryrannosaur. Every man to his (or woman to her) own taste.
Attalus.... Attalus.... Attalus? Is that *you*? It's Azred from Ironworks.
For a full mathematical report of why that is, see SomeSort's post above. It's quite impossible to argue against since it is mathematical, thus not opinion based. It's entirely rooted in number.
Quite impossible to argue against? Let's not get silly, here.
What I meant was, you backed up your post with numbers, not mere opinions. Therefore, if someone is to refute you, they would have to actually do the number-crunching, exactly as you did. Just saying "no, because..." is simply not enough. It's not an argument based on anything substantial.
*Shrugs* I adore nally little Nalia and Imoen both, so I always take them both. Can't stand Edwin, even if he came with a pet Tryrannosaur. Every man to his (or woman to her) own taste.
Attalus.... Attalus.... Attalus? Is that *you*? It's Azred from Ironworks.
Ahh, two old friends seeing each other after many years. Glad my thread brought you together!
4. Calculating the XP difference at 1 million is nonsensical because if you want to have Imoen in your party, of course you are going to rush Spellhold. There are certain questlines that must be done before Spellhold can be reached. This will equate to a significant XP gap, like around 750k.
5. Rushing Spellhold hardly leaves you underleveled and definitely does not leave you under-geared, as most of the good gear is in Spellhold-Fishpeople-Underdark areas anyways, It leaves you under-geared for the encounters. To get the good gear, you have to be strong enough to obtain it.
"so rushing to Imoen is perfectly doable. It does not make Nalia more viable than Imoen."
Rushing to Imoen literally means you are basing your entire game around her. Since Nalia exists, and can do everything Imoen can, it certainly does make Nalia more viable - and not by just a little bit. Nalia is available immediately, whereas Imoen is well into the game. Nalia is also better in practice, since she can learn spells as you encounter them. With Imoen, you either have to store the scrolls somewhere (meaning you won't access them until chapter 6), or bring them with you to Spellhold (troublesome, as there are so many). Otherwise, you are dealing with an almost empty spellbook. Imoen can ONLY be considered more viable if you are doing an RP run for her actual character (not abilities). For all other purposes, she is simply overshadowed by Nalia (though people have long claimed the exact opposite).
For a full mathematical report of why that is, see SomeSort's post above. It's quite impossible to argue against since it is mathematical, thus not opinion based. It's entirely rooted in number.
I'm just going to touch on this right here. Unless EE has changes something I'm forgetting. It's possible to start on your way to SpellHold after doing about 3 quests and a few small things. Not three Quest Chains. You just have to know what quests to pick. This actually can put you well under the maximum level you can pick up Imoen at. Even considering the XP you get in SpellHold before you get to her. Other than that. Everything else is doable in Chapter 6 instead of Chapter 2. There used to be an actual old Argument in this was the more proper way to play the storyline in some Forums because it was argued you should have a sense of urgency to go rescue your friend. This also means her spellbook isn't all that empty when you add it up.
(SCS changes this in their idea of fairness and balance. Just to get more gold out of your pocket and make gold management somehow last longer before it doesn't matter anymore. It's a crap excuse and why I put a caveat on mods making her less viable. It's actually the lazy way to fix what they are trying to fix.)
Handpicking the Illithids for your argument doesn't actually help your case either. They are one area that is actually outright written as optional. Not to mention they may be a bit difficult but they are still beatable if you go do them at lower level. (Unless your using mods that increases their difficulty and then that is not the fault of the game. Again.) If you are going to do all 3 dungeons there is the possibility of leaving it to be the last one to do. Which helps you get more gear and experience. As well as spells for Imoen's spell book. Some really nice spells for her spell book can also be bought or found in the Underdark. Also making her spell choices less of an issue than your making them out to be.
What does all this mean? That Nalia is not actually significantly more Viable than Imoen once again in a game where getting to her isn't made artificially more difficult. And it isn't a Viability based only on RP Purposes.
As for the mathematical viability. There are numbers missing. We don't know what level his Paladin is. We don't know what levels he has in his party but we do know that he has two party members that actually lower the average level for getting Imoen. Both Nalia and Jan have this affect on her. Nalia being the bigger culprit. 300k is still significantly less than the 1mil xp that many are basing power differences in this thread on. There may be a higher level Version of Imoen that he didn't activate with his party but even if there isn't that gap is actually not that bad. 300k is less than a levels difference anywhere above Level 11 considering it levels off at 375k between levels. The post your speaking of also illustrates how little you actually have to do to be able to go to Spellhold in an unmodded game.
A level 10 fighter with the best gear in the game is facing off against a level 20 fighter who is completely naked. Who wins?
Actually, I wouldn't bet so hard against the L20 fighter, if given at least matching unenchanted weapons. Assuming no outside buffs, the L20 fighter would have a higher THAC0. Assuming both had grandmastery in their chosen weapons, the L20 fighter another 1/2 attack (or down by 1/2 if you want to consider a +1 APR for the L10), and would have 33 more HP. I'd guess that neither side has a problem hitting each other, the L10 would have a THAC0 of something like 5 against something like 6 AC, and the L20 fighter would have 0 THAC0 against something like -6 AC. They'd both miss attacks about a quarter of the time I guess?
So I guess it'd come down to who connects their blows first. The L20 has more HP, but the L10 fighter, having "the best gear in the game", has access to stuff that does more damage.
And if it wasn't "naked but for a weapon" and was just "has totally unenchanted basic gear", the L20 would destroy the L10 by putting on the unenchanted full plate and being nearly unhittable to the L10 (miss chance would go to ~75%?).
I'd agree with you about the mage levels and the Thief skills, however.
The problem with going to Spellhold ASAP is that then you play the vast bulk of the game,
a) without a soul (which is actually meant to have some effect) b) you have to leave Suldenesselar to the tender mercies of Irenicus.
Once you have found out the major plot (the bastard was after my Bhaalspawn soul), once you have been asked by the Elves to get the Lantern, messing around sorting out the Druids in Trademeet or getting illithium for the sculpter, from a RP angle seems like nonsense.
How do you roleplay that you are souless, the example of Irenicus has shown you it is almost like a degenerative desease, in game it even says you have to get it back ASAP, Suldenesselar is under seige and there are depending on you, and then you take a "gap month" or more to mess around here, there and everywhere. Finish up your stronghold quests, go to the theatre, bother with the CW after you have seen what has happened at SH. Cult of the Eyeless?, sorry Oisig, got much more important things on my mind at the moment.
RP wise, you'd do all those quests after Suldenesselar and finishing Irenicus and with your soul restored.
I RP it that my Paladin has a spiritual guide (tutelary deity) that keeps him safe against degeneration while some mage has temporary possession of his soul. Hey, it works for me.
I'm just going to touch on this right here. Unless EE has changes something I'm forgetting. It's possible to start on your way to SpellHold after doing about 3 quests and a few small things. Not three Quest Chains. You just have to know what quests to pick. This actually can put you well under the maximum level you can pick up Imoen at. Even considering the XP you get in SpellHold before you get to her.
The bare minimum amount of XP you have to receive before recruiting Imoen is as follows:
* 89,000 for starting the game with a non-imported character. * Sneak through Irenicus dungeon. Pickpocket the Sewer Golem key. Just eat the traps rather than disarming. Leave Jahiera and Minsc to rot. You get 20,000 split three ways for destroying the Mephit portals, plus 34,500 for everyone for escaping the dungeon. That'll put you at around 130,000 XP. * Sell whatever you pocketed from the dungeon for a couple potions of master thievery. Feed them to Yoshimo and then go on a stealing/selling rampage until you have unlimited money. Buy whatever gear you want and pay Gaelen Bayle for 45,000 XP. * Do Linvail's three quests. He'll give you 107k unavoidable quest XP, plus you'll be forced to get some combat XP during the process. * Run away from the Vampires in Brynnlaw, Kill Perth (20,000 XP), and go straight into the asylum.
So you're already at 282k as a bare minimum from quest XP alone by the time you rescue Imoen, plus whatever you got from combat in the process. That's 354k if you imported from BG1. But, like, this is insane levels of rushing, levels that make no sense whatsoever. Why would you not kill anything in Chateau Irenicus, before Imoen has even been captured?
More realistically, even if you abuse pickpocket to get the 15,000 gold and don't do a single quest, you're already looking at about 375k XP. And if you do this, you'll get an Imoen who also has about 375k XP. So really, the best case scenario is if you use one of the bigger exploits in the game and rush to the maximum possible degree you can get an Imoen who has the same amount of XP that you have.
(Actually, best case scenario involves recruiting a party of nothing but single-class rogues and getting Imoen when you have around 700k XP, in which case you get an Imoen who is actually higher level than you are. But now we're talking about really stupid corner-case stuff that no reasonable person is ever going to run into in a real playthrough, unless perhaps they're a solo rogue doing a "Bhaalspawn-only" run-- Charname / Imoen / Sarevok.)
Anyway, the larger point is this: if you completely base your entire run on having Imoen at level parity with the rest of your party, and you specifically don't recruit certain NPCs and specifically do recruit certain others, or rush the main plot as much as possible and don't mind leaning on a few exploits in the process, then sure, you can get a version of Imoen who is not underleveled with respect to the rest of the party. (And all it takes is making your entire party underleveled, instead.)
But "if you deliberately make your party weaker, Imoen isn't weaker relative to the rest of your party" doesn't really strike me as a redeeming argument in favor of Imoen's overall power, right? I mean, I could just as easily say that if you don't equip armor on anyone, suddenly Cernd looks a lot better! None of this speaks to the typical power levels a typical Imoen will have in a typical run by typical players.
As for the mathematical viability. There are numbers missing. We don't know what level his Paladin is. We don't know what levels he has in his party but we do know that he has two party members that actually lower the average level for getting Imoen. Both Nalia and Jan have this affect on her. Nalia being the bigger culprit. 300k is still significantly less than the 1mil xp that many are basing power differences in this thread on. There may be a higher level Version of Imoen that he didn't activate with his party but even if there isn't that gap is actually not that bad. 300k is less than a levels difference anywhere above Level 11 considering it levels off at 375k between levels. The post your speaking of also illustrates how little you actually have to do to be able to go to Spellhold in an unmodded game.
Well, you can fill in the missing numbers to figure out what level my paladin is. I mentioned Nalia had 300,000 XP more than Imoen, and that I rushed to get her at a low level. The lowest-level version of Imoen comes with somewhere around 400,000 XP, so Nalia must have had about 700,000 XP.
(I don't know exactly where I everyone was when I recruited Imoen, by my save I've already cleared Spellhold and defeated Irenicus. Imoen currently has 750k, Nalia has 1.07m, and my Paladin has 1.19m.)
But this is kind of my point. I *did* base this entire playthrough on getting Imoen as quickly as possible! I roleplayed a LG Paladin who wouldn't delay the rescue mission one moment longer than was necessary. She went to the Copper Coronet on Brus' recommendation, was told about the slaves, the keep, and Windspear, cleared them out, got in good standing with the Order of the Radiant Heart, and then was off.
(I did make a detour to Umar Hills and Trademeet to pick up Mazzy and Rasaad, but that was just metagaming on my part; I didn't do any quests there, I just beelined for the companions and took off.)
And even in this scenario, which I think is about the "maximum realistic rush" scenario, Imoen is lagging by 300k XP. Under more reasonable circumstances, (doing more than three quests in Chapter 2), she'll be behind by... more like 750k to 1.125m, as I said earlier in the thread. I think that's a reasonable basis of comparison for a typical run-through unless you literally base your entire run around acquiring Imoen at level parity.
And like I said, "she's as good as Nalia if you literally base your entire run around how and when you're going to acquire her" isn't really a strong argument in her favor.
Numbers, bumbers, mathmatics, smackmatics , lawd. Ok though I know it draws some in, and you all are most welcome, and it's even interesting to see figgers ever once in a while, I just tend to the roleplay aspect more and heck with the numbers. I need a drink after reading some of that analysis .
EDIT: At least I'll have a heads up on who to hire when I need an analysis done for conflict management.
Your basing all of that purely on the idea that Imoen can only be gotten at her lower level version (Level 11 as I recall). There is a higher level version to her (Level 13 I believe). Your taking of Nalia tanks the calculations which picks which one you get. With what your describing for your experience that you have. You had a possibility of snagging the higher level version of her had you not had Nalia in the party which would put Imoen inline with Charname and actually have more XP than Nalia herself in your run.
Nalia, Many of the dual/multi- class options(and your characters dual and multi-class) all factor into deciding what level Imoen that you get in spellhold. Every class that a character possesses and the level it is at factors into the equation. Not simply the highest level, or the activated level. That level 4 on Nalia. That actually hurts you in this instance.
As much as you want to say it's not true. Your math shows repeatedly that it is possible to get Imoen at a point that is within less than a level of Nalia if you wish to. And you stand a chance of getting the better version of her if you don't include Nalia. Mazzy and Rasaad in your party being single classes can actually help your chances at getting the higher level version.
However. This discussion is talking long term as well as short term. 300k difference doesn't mean a whole lot when your level is 20-30 or so. In fact your xp numbers are just about in line with hitting the point where there isn't a big xp gap between Nalia and Imoen in your current party. And for that slight disadvantage of Imoen? She doesn't have to bother with the ring swapping shenanigans because she's a better rogue opening you up two rings spots for other things.
It's not truly the whole run that is based around her. It's perceived that way. It's technically only the early part of the run which changes the order that you do some things but doesn't preclude you from doing it all. And bringing RP into why you can't be doing all of the other stuff in Chapter 6 realistically applies just as much to doing them in Chapter 2. Unless your Charname is heartless. They probably aren't going to wait forever and a day for you to solve all the problems in the land before going to save their childhood friend any more than they are going to put the fate of the elves on hold for the sake of minor regional troubles.
Edit: As for Cernd. He has a particular style to getting the most out of him. A Style that many aren't going to bother using because it does preclude you from doing anything and everything at any moment.
A level 10 fighter with the best gear in the game is facing off against a level 20 fighter who is completely naked. Who wins?
Actually, I wouldn't bet so hard against the L20 fighter, if given at least matching unenchanted weapons. Assuming no outside buffs, the L20 fighter would have a higher THAC0. Assuming both had grandmastery in their chosen weapons, the L20 fighter another 1/2 attack (or down by 1/2 if you want to consider a +1 APR for the L10), and would have 33 more HP. I'd guess that neither side has a problem hitting each other, the L10 would have a THAC0 of something like 5 against something like 6 AC, and the L20 fighter would have 0 THAC0 against something like -6 AC. They'd both miss attacks about a quarter of the time I guess?
So I guess it'd come down to who connects their blows first. The L20 has more HP, but the L10 fighter, having "the best gear in the game", has access to stuff that does more damage.
And if it wasn't "naked but for a weapon" and was just "has totally unenchanted basic gear", the L20 would destroy the L10 by putting on the unenchanted full plate and being nearly unhittable to the L10 (miss chance would go to ~75%?).
I'd agree with you about the mage levels and the Thief skills, however.
I mean, technically a no-gear fighter would be stuck with his or her fists which means he or she is dealing non-lethal damage and the level 10 would win easily.
Anyway, I don't know why you'd give the two characters matching unenchanted weapons. The whole point of the level 10 fighter having a gear advantage is... the level 10 fighter having a gear advantage. I guess it's only fair to give the level 20 fighter some sort of weapon, but I'd say unenchanted for the level 20 and Foebane or Flail of Ages +5 for the level 10.
Give the level 10 fighter Enkidu's Full Plate +3, Helm of the Balduran, Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Earth Control, Cloak of the Sewers, and Darksteel Shield and her AC is -16. A level 20 fighter with 19 strength dual-wielding morning stars (since Full Plate offers the least protection against blunt weapons) with Grandmastery and *** in two-weapon style would have 4 APR, three with -5 THACO and one with -3 THACO. That'd average out to 1.9 hits per round at 2d4+12 damage (proficiency plus strength). A total of 32.3 damage per round, on average. No criticals because the level 10 has a helm.
The level 10 fighter with Foebane and Grandmastery would have 2.5 APR. She'd also have 22 strength, thanks to the girdle of Fire Giant strength. 11 base THACO, -5 for Foebane, -3 for Grandmastery, -4 for Strength, -1 for the Helm of Balduran, that's -2 THACO total, just three points behind the level 20. The level 20 fighter has an AC of 6, so everything hits except for critical misses. That's 2.375 hits per round, at 14 + 10 + 15 = 29 damage per hit, so 68.875 damage per round.
Plus, of course, the level 10 fighter heals back 9.5 damage per round thanks to Foebane. So she's dealing more than triple the damage even without counting criticals.
You can give the level 20 fighter unenchanted Full Plate, but that kind of defeats the purpose, (despite being unenchanted, regular Full Plate is one of the best armors in the game). And even that's still not enough to bring them into parity, because like I said, the Level 10 fighter has almost as good of THACO as the level 20 fighter and much better AC, (plus all those cool secondary effects).
And I haven't even gotten into stuff like Ilbratha, Ras, the Gargoyle Boots, Vhailor's Helm, Gaxx's improved haste, etc.
A level 10 fighter with uber gear would mop the floor with a level 20 fighter with garbage gear. Meanwhile, the only hope for a level 10 mage would be abusing their faster cast rate with Vecna/AoP to continually interrupt the higher-level mage, because once the higher-level mage got off a spell it would be pretty much over.
But even that wouldn't work, because the higher-level mage will already have a Chain Contingency set up to drop a triple ADHW on the next enemy he sees, or to give him Improved Invisibility + SI: Divination + Stoneskin the next time he takes damage, or whatever, and it'll be GG Level 10 Mage before things even start.
Fateless said: "Your basing all of that purely on the idea that Imoen can only be gotten at her lower level version (Level 11 as I recall). There is a higher level version to her (Level 13 I believe). Your taking of Nalia tanks the calculations which picks which one you get. With what your describing for your experience that you have. You had a possibility of snagging the higher level version of her had you not had Nalia in the party which would put Imoen inline with Charname and actually have more XP than Nalia herself in your run."
Refuted by:
Somesort said: "The bare minimum amount of XP you have to receive before recruiting Imoen is as follows:
* 89,000 for starting the game with a non-imported character. * Sneak through Irenicus dungeon. Pickpocket the Sewer Golem key. Just eat the traps rather than disarming. Leave Jahiera and Minsc to rot. You get 20,000 split three ways for destroying the Mephit portals, plus 34,500 for everyone for escaping the dungeon. That'll put you at around 130,000 XP. * Sell whatever you pocketed from the dungeon for a couple potions of master thievery. Feed them to Yoshimo and then go on a stealing/selling rampage until you have unlimited money. Buy whatever gear you want and pay Gaelen Bayle for 45,000 XP. * Do Linvail's three quests. He'll give you 107k unavoidable quest XP, plus you'll be forced to get some combat XP during the process. * Run away from the Vampires in Brynnlaw, Kill Perth (20,000 XP), and go straight into the asylum.
So you're already at 282k as a bare minimum from quest XP alone by the time you rescue Imoen, plus whatever you got from combat in the process. That's 354k if you imported from BG1. But, like, this is insane levels of rushing, levels that make no sense whatsoever. Why would you not kill anything in Chateau Irenicus, before Imoen has even been captured?
More realistically, even if you abuse pickpocket to get the 15,000 gold and don't do a single quest, you're already looking at about 375k XP. And if you do this, you'll get an Imoen who also has about 375k XP. So really, the best case scenario is if you use one of the bigger exploits in the game and rush to the maximum possible degree you can get an Imoen who has the same amount of XP that you have."
Talk about cherry-picking for an argument. SomeSort showed in that above comment what would happen in the best possible scenario (one which leaves you horrifically undergeared and underleveled, and is actually impractical - no one would do it except to rush) to get Imoen early. You chose to only address his own situational circumstance for your argument, not the objective facts he presented.
Fateless: "As much as you want to say it's not true. Your math shows repeatedly that it is possible to get Imoen at a point that is within less than a level of Nalia if you wish to."
Nah, it is true. The numbers have spoken. If you want to refute it, you will have to do the math to show why he is wrong. Saying "it's not true" isn't an argument. His math shows repeatedly that Nalia is the better choice, taking into account multiple scenarios (not just a single one). There is no one scenario which mathematically makes Imoen the viable choice. If you have such a scenario, do the numbers yourself and show us.
Math wins the day. At this point, it is actually irrefutable. Anyone arguing that Imoen is better than Nalia is essentially trying to argue that 1+1=3. The facts and figures have pretty much covered every possible scenario, and all of them point to Nalia being the superior choice.
By the way, SomeSort, you are a walking encyclopedia. I am blown away. My sincere congratulations on your knowledge of the game. Very impressive indeed.
Fateless: "As much as you want to say it's not true. Your math shows repeatedly that it is possible to get Imoen at a point that is within less than a level of Nalia if you wish to."
Nah, it is true. The numbers have spoken. If you want to refute it, you will have to do the math to show why he is wrong. Saying "it's not true" isn't an argument. His math shows repeatedly that Nalia is the better choice, taking into account multiple scenarios (not just a single one). There is no one scenario which mathematically makes Imoen the viable choice. If you have such a scenario, do the numbers yourself and show us.
Math wins the day. At this point, it is actually irrefutable. Anyone arguing that Imoen is better than Nalia is essentially trying to argue that 1+1=3. The facts and figures have pretty much covered every possible scenario, and all of them point to Nalia being the superior choice.
By the way, SomeSort, you are a walking encyclopedia. I am blown away. My sincere congratulations on your knowledge of the game. Very impressive indeed.
Again, let's not oversell the data. I am *not* saying "there is no possible situation in which Imoen will be more powerful than Nalia". I can give all sorts of situations. If you go to Spellhold as either a solo rogue or a rogue with Haer'Dalis and Yoshimo, and you reach Imoen at 660k XP, she'll join you with about 500,000 more XP than you have. Nalia can never do that.
I'm saying that in a *typical* scenario, Imoen will lag Nalia by anywhere from around 375k (1 level) if you rush, 750k (2 levels) if you neither rush nor delay, or 1.125m (3 levels) if you complete all of Chapter 2. Things can get even sillier if you include Watcher's Keep-- if I really wanted to, I'm sure I could engineer a run where Imoen was recruited with 4 million fewer XP than Nalia. But that's not a typical use-case, either.
And while the math is the math and not really subject to debate, the math itself is not a terminal value, it is used to fuel a value judgment, and that is absolutely not "irrefutable". I claim that the "typical run" will leave Imoen 750k XP behind. That's very much open to debate, because "typical" is not a mathematical claim, but a sociological one, and it's not like I've run any studies on it.
In other words, the math here doesn't cover every possible scenario. Well, the math *does* cover every possible scenario, but not every possible scenario is favorable to Nalia. (Again, all-rogue party rushing Spellhold is favorable to Imoen, just as a very simple "for instance".) So it's up to us to decide what scenarios we think are more or less relevant. I tend to think the more relevant scenarios are more favorable to Nalia.
Finally, the math doesn't "show repeatedly" that Nalia is the "better" choice. It shows that she'll be 1-3 levels higher, (typically 2-3), and then I add the value judgment that 1-3 levels is more valuable than 2 ring slots. But that value judgment is very much open to debate. Others can and will feel differently, and that doesn't make them "wrong", it means they place different subjective weights on different subjective factors.
(Also, as quite another aside, let's not confuse "more powerful" with "better". They're very different things.)
TL;DR-- this isn't an argument that one side has "won", or even an argument that one "wins" in the first place. This is a friendly discussion between people with different subjective value weights, none of which is right or wrong. The data is presented to inform value judgments, but it does not demand certain value judgments. Or, in other words, everyone is free to disagree.
Your basing all of that purely on the idea that Imoen can only be gotten at her lower level version (Level 11 as I recall). There is a higher level version to her (Level 13 I believe). Your taking of Nalia tanks the calculations which picks which one you get. With what your describing for your experience that you have. You had a possibility of snagging the higher level version of her had you not had Nalia in the party which would put Imoen inline with Charname and actually have more XP than Nalia herself in your run.
Nalia, Many of the dual/multi- class options(and your characters dual and multi-class) all factor into deciding what level Imoen that you get in spellhold. Every class that a character possesses and the level it is at factors into the equation. Not simply the highest level, or the activated level. That level 4 on Nalia. That actually hurts you in this instance.
I'm aware of the math behind recruiting Imoen, and posted a link earlier in the thread to a post I made where I spelled it out in detail, (specifically calling out Nalia as making it nearly impossible to get the higher-level Imoen).
The problem is it's not just Nalia that hurts the cause. Anomen, Jahiera, and Aerie also strongly influence the calculation pushing Imoen towards a lower level. Jan, Keldorn, Valygar, Minsc, and Dorn also slightly push you towards a version of Imoen who lags you in XP. On the other hand, Mazzy, Keldorn, Wilson, Edwin, Neera, Rasaad, Viconia, and Cernd are roughly "neutral" (they neither help nor hurt your quest to recruit Imoen at level-parity), while Yoshimo, Haer'Dalis, and Hexxat can actually push you towards acquiring an Imoen who is a higher level than the rest of your party.
Additionally, multiclass and dual-class Charnames push you towards a lower-level Imoen, pureclass Paladins/Rangers slightly push you towards a lower-level Imoen, pureclass Fighter/Cleric/Monk/Mage/Sorcerer/Druids are roughly neutral, and pureclass rogues push you towards a higher-level Imoen.
(The big asterisk is that while Rogues can push you towards a higher-level Imoen, they can only do it in a narrow band between about 700k XP and 1.1m XP. So you have to carefully plan how much XP you get in Chapter 2, and be sure to take into account the XP you're forced to take in Chapter 3.)
So yeah, if you want, you can totally metagame the system to get an Imoen who is at or above your party's levels. But doing so requires (A) passing on some of the most popular characters in the game, (B) avoiding dual/multiclassing (or delaying your dual-class until after you recruit Imoen), and (C) carefully managing your XP to ensure you don't get too much or too little.
In short, it's a lot of work, and you essentially have to base your entire run around it. (And yes, it affects your entire run, or at least the entire SoA portion. It impacts how leveled and geared you are for chapters 3, 4, and 5, and it leaves you overleveled and overgeared for anywhere between 30-100% of what is traditionally considered Chapter 2 content. Things don't really even up until you hit Suldenessar, and from that point to the end of ToB the run will be the same whether you deliberately gamed Imoen's recruitment or not.)
As much as you want to say it's not true. Your math shows repeatedly that it is possible to get Imoen at a point that is within less than a level of Nalia if you wish to.
"As much as I want to say it's not true", in this case, is "zero much". I don't want to say that at all, and have not at any point in this thread said that. In fact, so far in this thread I have explicitly said that (A) it's possible to get Imoen at perfect level parity with you, (B) it's possible to get Imoen within one level of you, and (C) it's even possible to get Imoen at a higher level than you! I've even given detailed instructions for how to accomplish all three.
(I've also said it's possible to get a version of Imoen who lags you by more than 4m XP. I haven't given detailed instructions, but here they are: start a character in Baldur's Gate, dual-class to mage at level 2, import into SoA, and then while either playing solo or recruiting only Nalia do enough of Chapter 2 and Watcher's Keep, and Chapter 3 to recruit Imoen while you're somewhere around level 22. This gives you about 4.5m XP and still lands you the level 11 version of Imoen with ~400k XP. It's absurd, but it's "possible".)
My argument is not about what is "possible". It's about what is "typical". And in a typical run-- a run where you're not specifically designing your entire party and all of Chapter 2 around recruiting the "best" version of Imoen at the lowest level of Charname-- Imoen is going to lag a Chapter 2 Available single-classed mage by 1-3 levels.
Maybe those 1-3 levels are worth more to you than 1-2 extra ring slots, (depending on how you feel about Nalia's signet ring, which is one of the best rings in the game even if you can't remove it and a positive for most of the saga). At really high levels, maybe my preferences flip and I prefer the ring slots, but "really high levels" represents just a tiny fraction of the overall game.
And really, what rings are we looking to replace them with at the end of the game? Another Ring of Protection +2? Nalia's signet ring is already a straight upgrade, (doubly so because it can actually stack with the RoP. Take that, Imoen!) A Ring of Wizardry? Sure, that's better than two extra levels by the time you hit level 22+, but you only get one of those. (Two if you're a mage, but your mage charname probably wants them for him or herself, anyway.)
I mean, at the end-game, I'd say the most likely ring setup would be Ring of Protection +2 and Ring of Wizardry for Imoen vs. De'Arnise Signet Ring + Ring of Danger Sense for Nalia. Nalia gets +50% fire resistance (and maybe an extra level 8 or level 9 spell from her levels), Imoen gets an extra 5/6/7 spell. It's not like Imoen is really blowing Nalia out of the water at this point. Not compared to how Nalia blew her out of the water from Chapter 4 through about halfway through ToB.
Over the course of the entire game, those 1-3 levels are a lot more valuable than 1-2 ring slots. If I could get a ring in Chateau Irenicus that said "your character gains a level, but this item cannot be removed", I'd totally equip that on all of my mages.
Comments
Let's say you get Imoen back when she's 750,000 XP behind Nalia, a totally plausible scenario. (If you really mine Chapter 2 before leaving for Spellhold, this will be more like a 1.125m XP gap.) Since by the time you recruit her she's already hit the linear XP progression part of the mage's XP curve, this means she will always and forever be two levels behind Nalia. (Three levels behind in the completionist scenario.)
What does two levels behind look like? It means that up until Imoen gets 3 million XP, Nalia will always have access to spells one full level higher than Imoen. Always. When Imoen gets her first Mislead, Nalia says "that's cute" and drops a Project Image. When Imoen gets that Project Image, Nalia says "that's nice, but mine can cast Abi-Dalshim's Horrid Wilting". When Imoen finally unlocks ADHW, Nalia says "I prefer to cast them after I've literally stopped time first".
Even when Imoen gets 3m XP, (putting Nalia at 3.75m XP), Nalia will have an extra level 9 spell until Imoen finally reaches level 22, which is 4.5m XP, (5.25m for Nalia). So Imoen says "hey Nalia, look, I can stop time, too!", and Nalia responds with "that's nice, but can you also cast your entire spellbook while time is stopped?" And then Imoen hits level 20 and gains that ability and Nalia says "cool. When you're done, can you change into a mindflayer and suck the brains out of helpless time-stopped enemies?"
(Nevermind that Nalia also casts her spells at a higher level until Imoen hits level 20, too.)
This is a *huge* power differential. Linear warriors, quadratic mages and all that jazz. What's everyone's favorite final reward in the Deck of Many Things? Why, the 1m XP of course, because 1m is a metric ton of XP, and that's also around the differential Imoen will be facing if you don't rush Spellhold. (Really, more, because that 1m is divided up among six party members, meaning each individual party member is only getting 167k.)
Now, the game is beatable just fine with an underleveled Imoen, and she'll still be contributing to the party. Once you've got the meta down it's not like vanilla BG2 is hard. You're free to make non-optimal choices, (from a powergaming standpoint), and indeed, almost all of us do on almost every run. I roll Halflings instead of Dwarves because I like their paperdoll better. It's not optimal from a powergaming standpoint, but I don't want to be staring at an ugly paperdoll every time I open up my inventory.
But from a strict powergaming standpoint, Nalia is "better" than Imoen unless you rush Spellhold. (And rushing Spellhold presents its own problems, leaving you undergeared and underleveled in the underdark, making the "Chapter 2" content trivial and boring once you finally get around to it in Chapter 6, etc.) As I said, I'll trade two ring slots for two mage levels any day of the week. Fighter levels? No way. Mage levels? Hell yeah.
From a raw power standpoint, Nalia is one of the strongest NPCs in the saga. If you really wanted to nominate a thief for "worst NPC", and you don't want to consider Yoshimo (because pure-class thieves, even bounty hunters, are underpowered), then I'd say Jan is the worst "thiefy" NPC. He's not giving you anything more than Nalia provides from a locks/traps standpoint, and he's giving up half of his mage progression to do it."
Nalia is more than sufficient as a thief, while being able to dual-role as a VERY competent caster with good HP, great stats, and so forth. Jan gives up half his mage progression to be a good thief (not worth the trade) and Hexxat is weak because she is a single class thief. Hexxat also requires the annoying cloak toggling as well, so she is actually MORE fiddly than Nalia. As for Imoen, she is in an awkward spot, so if you want her to be viable you have to get her early (ie, base your ENTIRE gameplay for one character).
So nah, Nalia wins here, out of sheer pragmatism is nothing else.
Also, as SomeSort once again pointed out "If she and Imoen were regularly the same level, I'd take Imoen every time. But they're not, and I'd rather have two extra mage levels than two extra ring slots."
Yup. Try again.
Thus I always give the STR and DEX bonuses to anyone except Imoen, since she'll eventually gain +1 to both of those anyway.
2. To turn the issue around, Mages rely not so much on levels(especially after level 20 which maxes out all the level-reliant spells) as on spellslots. The difference here is that unlike Thieves' fixed 25 skill points per level, mage slot progression is not linear.
3. Even if we take your 1 million XP difference, which is nonsensical, for a Mage that is about two levels of difference. This is on average two spellslots of difference. Despite your best cherry-picked efforts, this is not an issue at all.
4. Calculating the XP difference at 1 million is nonsensical because if you want to have Imoen in your party, of course you are going to rush Spellhold. Otherwise it's "I run a party with Imoen, except not for half of the game" - yeah, probably not.
5. Rushing Spellhold hardly leaves you underleveled and definitely does not leave you under-geared, as most of the good gear is in Spellhold-Fishpeople-Underdark areas anyways, and they provide a decashitload of XP even without squeezing them out(Clearing all the dungeons)
6. Neither will it leave most Amn content "trivial and boring" - Firkraag, Shadow Dragon, Kangaxx, Secret Rune, sewer Mind Flayers, Lavok, these are all high level encounters/areas.
To be fair if your playing Completionist, The idea that your making the above ground content "Trivial" or easy compared to the Asylum/Underdark content is fairly pointless in this discussion as well. If your completionist and you do all of the above ground content in Chapter 2 then the Asylum/Underdark stuff isn't all that difficult but some of the above ground content can be. If you Rush to get Imoen and do the Asylum/Underdark content first then some of it is harder and some of the Above ground content is made simpler. You get the same effect either way. About the only way the change might actually be important is if you want to kill certain encounters such as FirKraag, Kangaxx, Etc potentially before you go to the Underdark (even though many wait for Chapter 6 to do so) or to give you a better shot to kill the Silver Dragon/Demon Lord. Two fights that most players don't do either because they don't have to or they don't feel is right for their preffered alignments.
Mods are the only thing that change this balance in some way and if they do that is a separate issue and certainly not the case of every character so rushing to Imoen is perfectly doable. It does not make Nalia more viable than Imoen.
Levels! Spellslots are directly correlated with levels. Mages are totally level-reliant for viability.
3. Even if we take your 1 million XP difference, which is nonsensical, for a Mage that is about two levels of difference. It has already been explained why it is not nonsensical for the million XP gap (actually, it was argued for less than that - 750k, which is TOTALLY reasonable and even generous). Yes, it is about two levels of difference at least, which is what has been stated. See above for what those two levels of difference mean.
4. Calculating the XP difference at 1 million is nonsensical because if you want to have Imoen in your party, of course you are going to rush Spellhold. There are certain questlines that must be done before Spellhold can be reached. This will equate to a significant XP gap, like around 750k.
5. Rushing Spellhold hardly leaves you underleveled and definitely does not leave you under-geared, as most of the good gear is in Spellhold-Fishpeople-Underdark areas anyways, It leaves you under-geared for the encounters. To get the good gear, you have to be strong enough to obtain it.
"so rushing to Imoen is perfectly doable. It does not make Nalia more viable than Imoen."
Rushing to Imoen literally means you are basing your entire game around her. Since Nalia exists, and can do everything Imoen can, it certainly does make Nalia more viable - and not by just a little bit. Nalia is available immediately, whereas Imoen is well into the game. Nalia is also better in practice, since she can learn spells as you encounter them. With Imoen, you either have to store the scrolls somewhere (meaning you won't access them until chapter 6), or bring them with you to Spellhold (troublesome, as there are so many). Otherwise, you are dealing with an almost empty spellbook. Imoen can ONLY be considered more viable if you are doing an RP run for her actual character (not abilities). For all other purposes, she is simply overshadowed by Nalia (though people have long claimed the exact opposite).
For a full mathematical report of why that is, see SomeSort's post above. It's quite impossible to argue against since it is mathematical, thus not opinion based. It's entirely rooted in number.
1-2. Obviously "Mages depend on levels, fighters depend on gear, and thieves depend on skills" is a huge simplification and not meant to be law handed down from on high. But consider the following:
A level 10 fighter with the best gear in the game is facing off against a level 20 fighter who is completely naked. Who wins?
A level 10 mage with the best gear in the game is facing off against a level 20 mage who is completely naked. Who wins?
Your party has no thief. You are given a choice between a level 20 thief with 0% in open locks and find traps or a level 10 thief with 100% in open locks and find traps. Which do you bring?
My answers to those questions are "the fighter with all the gear, the mage with all the levels, and the thief with the relevant skills". Maybe your answer is different. Maybe it's not. But that's where I'm coming from when I say that.
Obviously levels help a fighter. They improve his saving throws and his THACO, for one. But so does gear. They improve his APR. But so does gear. Meanwhile, there are plenty of things a fighter *needs* to be viable that levels don't improve at all-- AC or some other form of damage mitigation, status effect protections (though saving throws certainly help there), the ability to pierce enemy protections, etc. For all of this, the fighter needs gear.
But a mage? There's nothing he needs that isn't provided by levels alone, (unless you want to be fussy and count scrolls, too). Every poverty run of BG2 is a caster of some sort. There's a reason for that.
3. The difference doesn't amount to "two spellslots of difference". I spelled out what it amounts to. It amounts to Project Image vs. Mislead, ADHW vs. Project Image, and Time Stop vs. ADHW. It's a big difference!
4. If you have to base your entire run around acquiring an NPC, that's a weakness for the NPC, right? There's no other NPC who that's remotely true of. And besides, plenty of people grab Imoen and yet still do a lot of Chapter 2 before leaving for Spellhold. I'd wager most people who grab Imoen, actually. And for those, 750,000 is pretty much the XP difference you're going to be seeing. 1.125m if you're thorough.
Hell, I have a Paladin sitting in Spellhold right now who *did* rush Imoen. The only Chapter 2 content she did was the Slaver ship, De'Arnise Keep, Windspear / Paladin Stronghold (including Firkraag), and a couple NPC quests (Nalia, Mazzy, Jan). That's it. Experience difference between Nalia and Imoen? 300,000.
6. Rushing Spellhold *will* leave you underleveled and undergeared. Don't know what else to say about that other than "there's a lot of experience and good gear in Chapter 2". Mind Flayer Dungeon and Adalon are hard even for parties who did all of Chapter 2 before leaving. They're brutal for parties who rushed Spellhold.
6. Firkraag, Shadow Dragon, Kangaxx, Secret Rune, and sewer Mind Flayers represent a pretty tiny fraction of Chapter 2 content. The rest is going to be a cakewalk for any post-underdark party.
(SCS changes this in their idea of fairness and balance. Just to get more gold out of your pocket and make gold management somehow last longer before it doesn't matter anymore. It's a crap excuse and why I put a caveat on mods making her less viable. It's actually the lazy way to fix what they are trying to fix.)
Handpicking the Illithids for your argument doesn't actually help your case either. They are one area that is actually outright written as optional. Not to mention they may be a bit difficult but they are still beatable if you go do them at lower level. (Unless your using mods that increases their difficulty and then that is not the fault of the game. Again.) If you are going to do all 3 dungeons there is the possibility of leaving it to be the last one to do. Which helps you get more gear and experience. As well as spells for Imoen's spell book. Some really nice spells for her spell book can also be bought or found in the Underdark. Also making her spell choices less of an issue than your making them out to be.
What does all this mean? That Nalia is not actually significantly more Viable than Imoen once again in a game where getting to her isn't made artificially more difficult. And it isn't a Viability based only on RP Purposes.
As for the mathematical viability. There are numbers missing. We don't know what level his Paladin is. We don't know what levels he has in his party but we do know that he has two party members that actually lower the average level for getting Imoen. Both Nalia and Jan have this affect on her. Nalia being the bigger culprit. 300k is still significantly less than the 1mil xp that many are basing power differences in this thread on. There may be a higher level Version of Imoen that he didn't activate with his party but even if there isn't that gap is actually not that bad. 300k is less than a levels difference anywhere above Level 11 considering it levels off at 375k between levels. The post your speaking of also illustrates how little you actually have to do to be able to go to Spellhold in an unmodded game.
So I guess it'd come down to who connects their blows first. The L20 has more HP, but the L10 fighter, having "the best gear in the game", has access to stuff that does more damage.
And if it wasn't "naked but for a weapon" and was just "has totally unenchanted basic gear", the L20 would destroy the L10 by putting on the unenchanted full plate and being nearly unhittable to the L10 (miss chance would go to ~75%?).
I'd agree with you about the mage levels and the Thief skills, however.
a) without a soul (which is actually meant to have some effect)
b) you have to leave Suldenesselar to the tender mercies of Irenicus.
Once you have found out the major plot (the bastard was after my Bhaalspawn soul), once you have been asked by the Elves to get the Lantern, messing around sorting out the Druids in Trademeet or getting illithium for the sculpter, from a RP angle seems like nonsense.
How do you roleplay that you are souless, the example of Irenicus has shown you it is almost like a degenerative desease, in game it even says you have to get it back ASAP, Suldenesselar is under seige and there are depending on you, and then you take a "gap month" or more to mess around here, there and everywhere. Finish up your stronghold quests, go to the theatre, bother with the CW after you have seen what has happened at SH. Cult of the Eyeless?, sorry Oisig, got much more important things on my mind at the moment.
RP wise, you'd do all those quests after Suldenesselar and finishing Irenicus and with your soul restored.
* 89,000 for starting the game with a non-imported character.
* Sneak through Irenicus dungeon. Pickpocket the Sewer Golem key. Just eat the traps rather than disarming. Leave Jahiera and Minsc to rot. You get 20,000 split three ways for destroying the Mephit portals, plus 34,500 for everyone for escaping the dungeon. That'll put you at around 130,000 XP.
* Sell whatever you pocketed from the dungeon for a couple potions of master thievery. Feed them to Yoshimo and then go on a stealing/selling rampage until you have unlimited money. Buy whatever gear you want and pay Gaelen Bayle for 45,000 XP.
* Do Linvail's three quests. He'll give you 107k unavoidable quest XP, plus you'll be forced to get some combat XP during the process.
* Run away from the Vampires in Brynnlaw, Kill Perth (20,000 XP), and go straight into the asylum.
So you're already at 282k as a bare minimum from quest XP alone by the time you rescue Imoen, plus whatever you got from combat in the process. That's 354k if you imported from BG1. But, like, this is insane levels of rushing, levels that make no sense whatsoever. Why would you not kill anything in Chateau Irenicus, before Imoen has even been captured?
More realistically, even if you abuse pickpocket to get the 15,000 gold and don't do a single quest, you're already looking at about 375k XP. And if you do this, you'll get an Imoen who also has about 375k XP. So really, the best case scenario is if you use one of the bigger exploits in the game and rush to the maximum possible degree you can get an Imoen who has the same amount of XP that you have.
(Actually, best case scenario involves recruiting a party of nothing but single-class rogues and getting Imoen when you have around 700k XP, in which case you get an Imoen who is actually higher level than you are. But now we're talking about really stupid corner-case stuff that no reasonable person is ever going to run into in a real playthrough, unless perhaps they're a solo rogue doing a "Bhaalspawn-only" run-- Charname / Imoen / Sarevok.)
Anyway, the larger point is this: if you completely base your entire run on having Imoen at level parity with the rest of your party, and you specifically don't recruit certain NPCs and specifically do recruit certain others, or rush the main plot as much as possible and don't mind leaning on a few exploits in the process, then sure, you can get a version of Imoen who is not underleveled with respect to the rest of the party. (And all it takes is making your entire party underleveled, instead.)
But "if you deliberately make your party weaker, Imoen isn't weaker relative to the rest of your party" doesn't really strike me as a redeeming argument in favor of Imoen's overall power, right? I mean, I could just as easily say that if you don't equip armor on anyone, suddenly Cernd looks a lot better! None of this speaks to the typical power levels a typical Imoen will have in a typical run by typical players. Well, you can fill in the missing numbers to figure out what level my paladin is. I mentioned Nalia had 300,000 XP more than Imoen, and that I rushed to get her at a low level. The lowest-level version of Imoen comes with somewhere around 400,000 XP, so Nalia must have had about 700,000 XP.
(I don't know exactly where I everyone was when I recruited Imoen, by my save I've already cleared Spellhold and defeated Irenicus. Imoen currently has 750k, Nalia has 1.07m, and my Paladin has 1.19m.)
But this is kind of my point. I *did* base this entire playthrough on getting Imoen as quickly as possible! I roleplayed a LG Paladin who wouldn't delay the rescue mission one moment longer than was necessary. She went to the Copper Coronet on Brus' recommendation, was told about the slaves, the keep, and Windspear, cleared them out, got in good standing with the Order of the Radiant Heart, and then was off.
(I did make a detour to Umar Hills and Trademeet to pick up Mazzy and Rasaad, but that was just metagaming on my part; I didn't do any quests there, I just beelined for the companions and took off.)
And even in this scenario, which I think is about the "maximum realistic rush" scenario, Imoen is lagging by 300k XP. Under more reasonable circumstances, (doing more than three quests in Chapter 2), she'll be behind by... more like 750k to 1.125m, as I said earlier in the thread. I think that's a reasonable basis of comparison for a typical run-through unless you literally base your entire run around acquiring Imoen at level parity.
And like I said, "she's as good as Nalia if you literally base your entire run around how and when you're going to acquire her" isn't really a strong argument in her favor.
I need a drink after reading some of that analysis
EDIT: At least I'll have a heads up on who to hire when I need an analysis done for conflict management.
Nalia, Many of the dual/multi- class options(and your characters dual and multi-class) all factor into deciding what level Imoen that you get in spellhold. Every class that a character possesses and the level it is at factors into the equation. Not simply the highest level, or the activated level. That level 4 on Nalia. That actually hurts you in this instance.
As much as you want to say it's not true. Your math shows repeatedly that it is possible to get Imoen at a point that is within less than a level of Nalia if you wish to. And you stand a chance of getting the better version of her if you don't include Nalia. Mazzy and Rasaad in your party being single classes can actually help your chances at getting the higher level version.
However. This discussion is talking long term as well as short term. 300k difference doesn't mean a whole lot when your level is 20-30 or so. In fact your xp numbers are just about in line with hitting the point where there isn't a big xp gap between Nalia and Imoen in your current party. And for that slight disadvantage of Imoen? She doesn't have to bother with the ring swapping shenanigans because she's a better rogue opening you up two rings spots for other things.
It's not truly the whole run that is based around her. It's perceived that way. It's technically only the early part of the run which changes the order that you do some things but doesn't preclude you from doing it all. And bringing RP into why you can't be doing all of the other stuff in Chapter 6 realistically applies just as much to doing them in Chapter 2. Unless your Charname is heartless. They probably aren't going to wait forever and a day for you to solve all the problems in the land before going to save their childhood friend any more than they are going to put the fate of the elves on hold for the sake of minor regional troubles.
Edit: As for Cernd. He has a particular style to getting the most out of him. A Style that many aren't going to bother using because it does preclude you from doing anything and everything at any moment.
Anyway, I don't know why you'd give the two characters matching unenchanted weapons. The whole point of the level 10 fighter having a gear advantage is... the level 10 fighter having a gear advantage. I guess it's only fair to give the level 20 fighter some sort of weapon, but I'd say unenchanted for the level 20 and Foebane or Flail of Ages +5 for the level 10.
Give the level 10 fighter Enkidu's Full Plate +3, Helm of the Balduran, Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Earth Control, Cloak of the Sewers, and Darksteel Shield and her AC is -16. A level 20 fighter with 19 strength dual-wielding morning stars (since Full Plate offers the least protection against blunt weapons) with Grandmastery and *** in two-weapon style would have 4 APR, three with -5 THACO and one with -3 THACO. That'd average out to 1.9 hits per round at 2d4+12 damage (proficiency plus strength). A total of 32.3 damage per round, on average. No criticals because the level 10 has a helm.
The level 10 fighter with Foebane and Grandmastery would have 2.5 APR. She'd also have 22 strength, thanks to the girdle of Fire Giant strength. 11 base THACO, -5 for Foebane, -3 for Grandmastery, -4 for Strength, -1 for the Helm of Balduran, that's -2 THACO total, just three points behind the level 20. The level 20 fighter has an AC of 6, so everything hits except for critical misses. That's 2.375 hits per round, at 14 + 10 + 15 = 29 damage per hit, so 68.875 damage per round.
Plus, of course, the level 10 fighter heals back 9.5 damage per round thanks to Foebane. So she's dealing more than triple the damage even without counting criticals.
You can give the level 20 fighter unenchanted Full Plate, but that kind of defeats the purpose, (despite being unenchanted, regular Full Plate is one of the best armors in the game). And even that's still not enough to bring them into parity, because like I said, the Level 10 fighter has almost as good of THACO as the level 20 fighter and much better AC, (plus all those cool secondary effects).
And I haven't even gotten into stuff like Ilbratha, Ras, the Gargoyle Boots, Vhailor's Helm, Gaxx's improved haste, etc.
A level 10 fighter with uber gear would mop the floor with a level 20 fighter with garbage gear. Meanwhile, the only hope for a level 10 mage would be abusing their faster cast rate with Vecna/AoP to continually interrupt the higher-level mage, because once the higher-level mage got off a spell it would be pretty much over.
But even that wouldn't work, because the higher-level mage will already have a Chain Contingency set up to drop a triple ADHW on the next enemy he sees, or to give him Improved Invisibility + SI: Divination + Stoneskin the next time he takes damage, or whatever, and it'll be GG Level 10 Mage before things even start.
Refuted by:
Somesort said: "The bare minimum amount of XP you have to receive before recruiting Imoen is as follows:
* 89,000 for starting the game with a non-imported character.
* Sneak through Irenicus dungeon. Pickpocket the Sewer Golem key. Just eat the traps rather than disarming. Leave Jahiera and Minsc to rot. You get 20,000 split three ways for destroying the Mephit portals, plus 34,500 for everyone for escaping the dungeon. That'll put you at around 130,000 XP.
* Sell whatever you pocketed from the dungeon for a couple potions of master thievery. Feed them to Yoshimo and then go on a stealing/selling rampage until you have unlimited money. Buy whatever gear you want and pay Gaelen Bayle for 45,000 XP.
* Do Linvail's three quests. He'll give you 107k unavoidable quest XP, plus you'll be forced to get some combat XP during the process.
* Run away from the Vampires in Brynnlaw, Kill Perth (20,000 XP), and go straight into the asylum.
So you're already at 282k as a bare minimum from quest XP alone by the time you rescue Imoen, plus whatever you got from combat in the process. That's 354k if you imported from BG1. But, like, this is insane levels of rushing, levels that make no sense whatsoever. Why would you not kill anything in Chateau Irenicus, before Imoen has even been captured?
More realistically, even if you abuse pickpocket to get the 15,000 gold and don't do a single quest, you're already looking at about 375k XP. And if you do this, you'll get an Imoen who also has about 375k XP. So really, the best case scenario is if you use one of the bigger exploits in the game and rush to the maximum possible degree you can get an Imoen who has the same amount of XP that you have."
Talk about cherry-picking for an argument. SomeSort showed in that above comment what would happen in the best possible scenario (one which leaves you horrifically undergeared and underleveled, and is actually impractical - no one would do it except to rush) to get Imoen early. You chose to only address his own situational circumstance for your argument, not the objective facts he presented.
Fateless: "As much as you want to say it's not true. Your math shows repeatedly that it is possible to get Imoen at a point that is within less than a level of Nalia if you wish to."
Nah, it is true. The numbers have spoken. If you want to refute it, you will have to do the math to show why he is wrong. Saying "it's not true" isn't an argument. His math shows repeatedly that Nalia is the better choice, taking into account multiple scenarios (not just a single one). There is no one scenario which mathematically makes Imoen the viable choice. If you have such a scenario, do the numbers yourself and show us.
Math wins the day. At this point, it is actually irrefutable. Anyone arguing that Imoen is better than Nalia is essentially trying to argue that 1+1=3. The facts and figures have pretty much covered every possible scenario, and all of them point to Nalia being the superior choice.
By the way, SomeSort, you are a walking encyclopedia. I am blown away. My sincere congratulations on your knowledge of the game. Very impressive indeed.
I'm saying that in a *typical* scenario, Imoen will lag Nalia by anywhere from around 375k (1 level) if you rush, 750k (2 levels) if you neither rush nor delay, or 1.125m (3 levels) if you complete all of Chapter 2. Things can get even sillier if you include Watcher's Keep-- if I really wanted to, I'm sure I could engineer a run where Imoen was recruited with 4 million fewer XP than Nalia. But that's not a typical use-case, either.
And while the math is the math and not really subject to debate, the math itself is not a terminal value, it is used to fuel a value judgment, and that is absolutely not "irrefutable". I claim that the "typical run" will leave Imoen 750k XP behind. That's very much open to debate, because "typical" is not a mathematical claim, but a sociological one, and it's not like I've run any studies on it.
In other words, the math here doesn't cover every possible scenario. Well, the math *does* cover every possible scenario, but not every possible scenario is favorable to Nalia. (Again, all-rogue party rushing Spellhold is favorable to Imoen, just as a very simple "for instance".) So it's up to us to decide what scenarios we think are more or less relevant. I tend to think the more relevant scenarios are more favorable to Nalia.
Finally, the math doesn't "show repeatedly" that Nalia is the "better" choice. It shows that she'll be 1-3 levels higher, (typically 2-3), and then I add the value judgment that 1-3 levels is more valuable than 2 ring slots. But that value judgment is very much open to debate. Others can and will feel differently, and that doesn't make them "wrong", it means they place different subjective weights on different subjective factors.
(Also, as quite another aside, let's not confuse "more powerful" with "better". They're very different things.)
TL;DR-- this isn't an argument that one side has "won", or even an argument that one "wins" in the first place. This is a friendly discussion between people with different subjective value weights, none of which is right or wrong. The data is presented to inform value judgments, but it does not demand certain value judgments. Or, in other words, everyone is free to disagree.
The problem is it's not just Nalia that hurts the cause. Anomen, Jahiera, and Aerie also strongly influence the calculation pushing Imoen towards a lower level. Jan, Keldorn, Valygar, Minsc, and Dorn also slightly push you towards a version of Imoen who lags you in XP. On the other hand, Mazzy, Keldorn, Wilson, Edwin, Neera, Rasaad, Viconia, and Cernd are roughly "neutral" (they neither help nor hurt your quest to recruit Imoen at level-parity), while Yoshimo, Haer'Dalis, and Hexxat can actually push you towards acquiring an Imoen who is a higher level than the rest of your party.
Additionally, multiclass and dual-class Charnames push you towards a lower-level Imoen, pureclass Paladins/Rangers slightly push you towards a lower-level Imoen, pureclass Fighter/Cleric/Monk/Mage/Sorcerer/Druids are roughly neutral, and pureclass rogues push you towards a higher-level Imoen.
(The big asterisk is that while Rogues can push you towards a higher-level Imoen, they can only do it in a narrow band between about 700k XP and 1.1m XP. So you have to carefully plan how much XP you get in Chapter 2, and be sure to take into account the XP you're forced to take in Chapter 3.)
So yeah, if you want, you can totally metagame the system to get an Imoen who is at or above your party's levels. But doing so requires (A) passing on some of the most popular characters in the game, (B) avoiding dual/multiclassing (or delaying your dual-class until after you recruit Imoen), and (C) carefully managing your XP to ensure you don't get too much or too little.
In short, it's a lot of work, and you essentially have to base your entire run around it. (And yes, it affects your entire run, or at least the entire SoA portion. It impacts how leveled and geared you are for chapters 3, 4, and 5, and it leaves you overleveled and overgeared for anywhere between 30-100% of what is traditionally considered Chapter 2 content. Things don't really even up until you hit Suldenessar, and from that point to the end of ToB the run will be the same whether you deliberately gamed Imoen's recruitment or not.) "As much as I want to say it's not true", in this case, is "zero much". I don't want to say that at all, and have not at any point in this thread said that. In fact, so far in this thread I have explicitly said that (A) it's possible to get Imoen at perfect level parity with you, (B) it's possible to get Imoen within one level of you, and (C) it's even possible to get Imoen at a higher level than you! I've even given detailed instructions for how to accomplish all three.
(I've also said it's possible to get a version of Imoen who lags you by more than 4m XP. I haven't given detailed instructions, but here they are: start a character in Baldur's Gate, dual-class to mage at level 2, import into SoA, and then while either playing solo or recruiting only Nalia do enough of Chapter 2 and Watcher's Keep, and Chapter 3 to recruit Imoen while you're somewhere around level 22. This gives you about 4.5m XP and still lands you the level 11 version of Imoen with ~400k XP. It's absurd, but it's "possible".)
My argument is not about what is "possible". It's about what is "typical". And in a typical run-- a run where you're not specifically designing your entire party and all of Chapter 2 around recruiting the "best" version of Imoen at the lowest level of Charname-- Imoen is going to lag a Chapter 2 Available single-classed mage by 1-3 levels.
Maybe those 1-3 levels are worth more to you than 1-2 extra ring slots, (depending on how you feel about Nalia's signet ring, which is one of the best rings in the game even if you can't remove it and a positive for most of the saga). At really high levels, maybe my preferences flip and I prefer the ring slots, but "really high levels" represents just a tiny fraction of the overall game.
And really, what rings are we looking to replace them with at the end of the game? Another Ring of Protection +2? Nalia's signet ring is already a straight upgrade, (doubly so because it can actually stack with the RoP. Take that, Imoen!) A Ring of Wizardry? Sure, that's better than two extra levels by the time you hit level 22+, but you only get one of those. (Two if you're a mage, but your mage charname probably wants them for him or herself, anyway.)
I mean, at the end-game, I'd say the most likely ring setup would be Ring of Protection +2 and Ring of Wizardry for Imoen vs. De'Arnise Signet Ring + Ring of Danger Sense for Nalia. Nalia gets +50% fire resistance (and maybe an extra level 8 or level 9 spell from her levels), Imoen gets an extra 5/6/7 spell. It's not like Imoen is really blowing Nalia out of the water at this point. Not compared to how Nalia blew her out of the water from Chapter 4 through about halfway through ToB.
Over the course of the entire game, those 1-3 levels are a lot more valuable than 1-2 ring slots. If I could get a ring in Chateau Irenicus that said "your character gains a level, but this item cannot be removed", I'd totally equip that on all of my mages.