Any Information On What the Story Would Have Been Had Imoen Been Killed?
UnderstandMouseMagic
Member Posts: 2,147
This question stems from the thread started by @Wandering_Ranger about Nalia "the Lady of the Rings".
It's common knowledge that the decision to make Imoen a Bhaalspawn and keep her alive was quite late(?) and is often used as a reason why the character development is so unfinished.
I am constantly amazed about the information people have managed to dig up about BG, so just wondering if anything has been found relating to what the story was going to be had they stuck to the original outline.
It's common knowledge that the decision to make Imoen a Bhaalspawn and keep her alive was quite late(?) and is often used as a reason why the character development is so unfinished.
I am constantly amazed about the information people have managed to dig up about BG, so just wondering if anything has been found relating to what the story was going to be had they stuck to the original outline.
5
Comments
If Imoen dies, Yoshimo sticks around and becomes a ToB NPC. The rest of the story doesn't need to change much at all since the only time Imoen is really important post-Spellhold is during Sarevok's bargain, and you can just offer a portion of your soul to give to him instead.
It would be interesting to see how Yoshimo would react to Sarevok though, they'll probably try to kill each other at some point unless you convince Sarevok to change.
I think a lot would change.
There's some buried stuff that has been mentioned here about how the Shadow Thieves were the main instigators of the kidnap, that they knew Irenicus or that perhaps that he was working for them?
Some of the dialog that still appears in the game doesn't add up at the moment and it stems from that. Irenicus saying "they act so soon" right at the beginning as if he expected them. Also some bits of the Aran Linvail dialog. (I'm sorry I can't remember what thread that discussion appeared in to give you a link.)
It would change Bodhi's motivations, perhaps being a vampire did countract the curse? (it's always seemed a bit dodgy/convenient that vampirism wouldn't counteract the curse seeing that vampires are always considered souless)
And Yoshimo would either have to be killed as now or some way to remove the geas (which would be a much better resolution to the Tamoko story in BG if you added him to TOB with Sarevok).
There's lots of ways the story could change, I was just hoping there might be some knowledge that's floating around as to what was the original outline.
For Imoen to be so under developed (according to those who play with her) there must have been quite some length of time when the assumption was that she would die.
So that would affect the Bodhi storyline we have now?
Unless it was the removing soul that killed her?
Another question would be was Imoen always a Bhaalspawn?
Or was that added as well when it was changed that she would die?
One of the problems I have with Imoen is the whole "she's so good and wholesome and bloody cheerful the Bhaaltaint isn't manifested".
If you are going down the road of nature versus nuture, which is a central theme of BG with Charname and emphasised in TOB, Imoen throws that out of window as it comes down completely to nature. It undermines all the hell trials, conversations with the Solar ect., no point if it comes down to nature.
But otherwise not much would change. you just wouldn't be able to recruit her from Spellhold. She'd still have been captured and all of that stuff in the beginning of the game.
As for the issue between Irenicus and the Shadow Thieves. I'd have to go looking but I believe there is some information in his lair... Or maybe it was after that basically suggested he's been stepping on their toes and causing them problems with his wanton disreguard of anybodies authority. He's even imprisoned a few of them (or worked to have them replaced). His comments about them attacking a bit sooner than he expected is simply because he knew they would retaliate eventually. He just made preperations for that inevitability and so his statements add up quite fine in that reguard.
As for Bodhi. I'm not sure what your looking for here. There really isn't anything I know of for her part in the story to change at all. For the most part she's a separate storyline taking place in tandem with the rest of the events of SoA... but gets involved heavily in the main storyline because of her involvement with the Shadow Thieves/As an alternative route to get to Spellhold. A diversionary boss to be dealt with along the way.
For example, he may use the fact you want to retrieve her because she is the only family (or what's closest to that since family aspects are rather complex in BG) you have left. And once you get to spellhold and Irenicus captures you again, there'd be no better way to "trigger" your Bhaalspawn essence than by killing your childhood friend right in front of you after you've been pursuing her for so long before the cutscene where you lose your powers triggers.
In the game (of course this is subjective) Bodhi comes across as a bit of a douche, she's all talk and it's very much Irenicus in control, of just about everything, she sounds quite pathetic when she suggests the hunting in Spellhold, "oooh look at me defying my big bro". Then you get to Suldenesselar and are told that she was maybe worse than him? more ambitious?
Now I don't usually go down this road but that just struck me as sexist claptrap, always has to be an evil woman somehere driving these innocent men to do horrible things.
But the thing is, I can go with that, I can go with Bodhi being worse but then lets see it in game. Bodhi as more ruthless, more ambitious, just more evil if you like. Irenicus slightly overshadowed by his sister because he chickened out of the whole vampire thing.
To remove that inconsistancy, I'd like to see Bodhi as pure vampire, happy to be vampire, enjoying being a vampire, souls are for pussies. Her ambition and drive allowed her to take the ultimate step, who needs a soul, watch me wreck havoc, f*** you elves. But instead they basically nerf her.
It just brings a bit of balance and makes the Suldenesselar remarks more believable. It would also fit the "no elf would" speech as that's a thing (embracing vampirism) that they really wouldn't believe an elf would do surely?
It also would have opened up the possibility that Bodhi survives SOA and carries on to TOB, and having that continuation mixing up the oft complained about linear TOB would be an improvement.
So you were there for the testing, the beginning, with Imoen still dying?
Was anything else different?
You can argue that she does seem a bit more tame around big brother, but Irenicus isn't really very stable where his past is concerned.
And As I stated in my post. Bodhi is a diversionary boss. Should she have been given a bit more? I could certainly agree with that. Might have been interesting to actually have to deal with her at the end with Irenicus or have had to deal with her After Irenicus as your actual final boss instead of before. But as she is set up in the game. She's simply a stop your forced to make on the way to Irenicus even though you already know where he is and could be more interested in going after him than dealing with her since she's basically secondary story.
Myself. I could have found it interesting to have to deal with both but you would have to choose which to deal with first. And based on which one you dealt with first would change the battle with the second in some way. having to deal with both as part of the Hell Encounter wouldn't have been that big of a switch up either because even though on the surface it looks like your final encounter with Irenicus. It's really all about Charname as the Bhaalspawn and self discovery.
It's arguable that technically the Irenicus you face there isn't actually Irenicus but simply a form that has been taken by some remnant piece of Bhaal instead and your facing a piece of your own heritage/inner turmoil come to life in a pocket hellscape so facing Bodhi there wouldn't be a stretch because if it is Irenicus the kind of shared fate they are supposed to have could have drawn her in. And if it isn't it would just be another representative form of Bhaal's power your conquering in yourself like the figures that you face in that end encounter really are.
The guild war is almost entirely between Bodhi and the Shadow Thieves. I'm not sure that Irenicus really plays any part in that. It seems to be mostly the secondary story that you get involved in purely as part of getting to SpellHold. I think it was meant to be part of Bodhi's own ambitions and plots outside of what Irenicus was doing and maybe a glimpse about that so called more evil and ambitious nature but it doesn't play that way to me.
She wouldn't have been given the Irenicus special torture just prior to BG2 start.
She wouldn't have been captured by the Cowled Wizards. She'd have been with you throughout the first part of the game.
Irenicus would have been the only one taken away to Spellhold.
The CHARNAME wouldn't have been forced to go to Spellhold.
Irenicus' plot wouldn't have been stopped vis a vis the CHARNAME getting forced all up in his business.
Irenicus would have siezed Sudanessellar, killed all the elves, merged with the Tree of Life before anyone knew there was a problem (damn those insular elves).
Everybody dies? (bit fuzzy on what that tree is supposed to do if tampered with)
And so Bodhi decided to go all the way and start her own guild while Irenicus did most of the planning/research.
Regardless, Imoen's survival shouldn't affect any attempt to expand on the Shadow Thief vs Irenicus or Bodhi-should-have-been-a-more-compelling-boss angle.
It's also very simple to just change the lore so that vampirism IS a guaranteed way to counteract Ellesime's curse (so Imoen would no longer need to be a Bhaalspawn). Irencius, however, is obviously intent on fighting gods so it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't settle for just being a vampire.
That's why he's interested in YOUR godly spark.
Like I said, the general flow of the story is very FF7-y, which makes sense given the time the game was developed.
I suppose that's one reason why they decided to move away from that direction.
I myself don't remember anything about Aran Linvail really pointing at Irenicus or the fact that Bodhi is simply doing it for him. I only remember the feel and impression that it's her trying to take over in Aran's place and push his guild out with her own.
Everyone doesn't dual-class her to Mage in BG1 (more specifically, to Conjurer because you could do that back then).
She gets played far less and maybe even gets passed by Safana in popularity.
She doesn't become part of the canon BG2 party.
Bioware is forced to retcon Minsc into being a Bhaalspawn.