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(Spoilers) 75th Discussion Special: DemonKnight was a Paladin and Other Theories

ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
So as many of you know, when you defeat DemonKnight in Durlag's Tower, you receive a Helm of Opposite Alignment from his body.

Is it possible that this DemonKnight was once a Paladin who was tricked into wearing the Helmet and twisted into a sadistic paragon of pure evil?

This would also make Tales of the Sword Coast, which is already the darkest chapter in the Baldur's Gate Saga, have far darker implications.

Who is responsible? Is this tied to Aec'Lectec and the Soultaker Cult? How did he come to be in Durlag's Tower? Strange enough, this theory poses more questions than it answers.

Any interesting Theories?

GrumNoobaccaJuliusBorisovtypo_tilly

Comments

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017
    I always played Northern Tales of the Sword Coast in my games. It ties the cult with the Dead Three (Bhaal, Myrkul, Bane, the ones who stole AO's tablets and caused the Time of Troubles).
    In NTotSC the plot continues after Aec'Lectec and leads to a temple of the Black Hand. Which is Bane. Bane by the way had a half-demonic son (some say by a paladin) named Iyachtu Xvim - if that name rings something, check IWD2.
    Decide yourself if that makes any sense, but its what you get when reading all those books and scrolls that are all over the game. I think the soultaker also hints at Bane.

    ZaramMaldovartypo_tilly
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    edited June 2017
    Theory #2
    Jaheria and Khalid were among the group of Harpers that embarassed Firkragg in the past.

    Reasoning:
    1. Half-Elves live longer than Humans, not nearly as long as Elves but longer than Humans, and it can be reasonably assumed that Jaheria and Khalid are much older than they look
    2. Firkragg might not recognize them from a group of several harpers that he encountered, so it can even be explained why he doesn't address Jaheria directly.
    3. It's possible the incident may have even been tied to Baron Ployer's demise. Whilst Firkragg blamed Gorion and decided to simply wait out a plan for revenge, Ployer was much more personally effected by Jaheria and Khalid and thus struck out on revenge for them.
    4. This may also be tied to Khalid's death. Ployer may have worked with Irenicus in the process of having Khalid killed and planned to do the same to Jaheria. This could explain why Ployer was clearly expecting Jaheria and had already set up for a rather intricate curse that puts Marek and Lothander to shame.

    Noobacca
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017

    Theory #2
    Jaheria and Khalid were among the group of Harpers that embarassed Firkragg in the past.

    Yes.

    In SoD there is a young dragon guarding what is then Cyric's temple.
    Some 20 years before, this was Bhaal's temple and the lair was occupied by an older dragon F.
    A group of harpers including Gorion, Jaheira and Khalid sneaked into the Bhaal temple after passing the sleeping dragon. The rest is told in ToB by the protagonist's mother. They rescue a bhaalspawn baby but have to leave another behind (Sarevok) when the whole temple gets alerted.
    They flee with the child they rescued but the turmoil has alerted the dragon. They injure him enough to continue their escape but do not kill him.
    Later, Bhaal's temple is taken over by Cyric, the old dragon has withdrawn etc.
    When F. notices that the stolen child has come to Amn, he lays out his plan.

    Why was the child raised by Gorion instead of Jaheira & Khalid? The answer is in Jaheira's bio and the fact that she and her husband travel for the harpers, they have no steady home to raise a child and they would be far too exposed to the many who are after the bhaalspawns in the coming years. Gorion and the remote Candlekeep are safer, only selected visitors come there etc. For the same reasons Imoen was brought there as well.

    Jaheira stepped on many other toes in her harper's work. Ployer was one of them. This is not related to F. at all.

    (This summary is culled from the various episodes in SoD, BG2, Sandrah Saga, and ToB, which all provide fragments of the story. I excluded Ployer because the tale told in the Jaheira plot may simply be true and there is not any hint anywhere that it is connected with the rest.)

    NoobaccaZaramMaldovar
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    edited June 2017
    Theory #3:
    Tiax is a Demi-God

    This can actually be branched into several theories
    3A: Tiax is the son of Cyric and truly receives visions. However, due to Tiax's naive nature, he actually believes and grabs on to Cyric's suggestions of power and sows chaos for his master whom he does not know or care is his father.
    3B: Tiax is a Bhaalspawn (this is my favorite) who was visited by Cyric in visions to the point where he was driven insane and became a chosen of Cyric. As part of his plan to continue Bhaal's suffering and torment even after killing him, Cyric has turned Priests and Bhaalspawn alike into his chosen so as to twist and pervert the once straightforward portfolio of Bhaal. Tiax either had no prior knowledge of being a Bhaalspawn or the aforementioned knowledge was stripped away from him through mental torture. This theory also explains Tiax's quick and quiet demise at the hands of Irenicus (of course the theory also doesn't take into account that the others died as well, but you win some you lose some)

    Either way, we get the Tiax we all know and love today.

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017

    Theory #3:
    Tiax is a Demi-God

    This can actually be branched into several theories
    3A: Tiax is the son of Cyric and truly receives visions. However, due to Tiax's naive nature, he actually believes and grabs on to Cyric's suggestions of power and sows chaos for his master whom he does not know or care is his father.
    3B: Tiax is a Bhaalspawn (this is my favorite) who was visited by Cyric in visions to the point where he was driven insane and became a chosen of Cyric. As part of his plan to continue Bhaal's suffering and torment even after killing him, Cyric has turned Priests and Bhaalspawn alike into his chosen so as to twist and pervert the once straightforward portfolio of Bhaal. Tiax either had no prior knowledge of being a Bhaalspawn or the aforementioned knowledge was stripped away from him through mental torture. This theory also explains Tiax's quick and quiet demise at the hands of Irenicus (of course the theory also doesn't take into account that the others died as well, but you win some you lose some)

    Either way, we get the Tiax we all know and love today.

    Tias is as much a demi-god as any other gnome is, i.e. their egos are just too big for them.

    After Bhaal's demise, Cyric is the reigning god of murder but what is nagging him most of all is that out there on the Prime is that *essence* of his predessor still. This essence rightfully belong to nobody but him. He must have that essence. At the time until ToB apparently the Overlord AO has strictly forbidden any celestial to intervene with the open Bhaal question until Alaundo's prophesy has played out.
    I am currently playing the EET and Sandrah Saga sequel. Interestingly enough, this issue is picked up there, as Cyric after the protagonist's ascenscion now starts a plot to capture that essence that belongs to Cyric. Or so he thinks...or so he is made to think by someone who tries to betray the Prince of Lies himself.

    Among all the inhabitants of Spellhold there is one who really belongs there. Tiax.

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    @PaulaMigrate
    Fair enough, but Tiax is definitely not the only one that belongs in Spellhold.
    1. Wanev-Driven completly insane to the point where he can barely function by Irenicus. Tiax is absolutely bonkers, but he can function pretty well. Wanev needs just as much if not more supervision than Tiax.
    2. Najher Skal- He just needs a friend, I think he'd be fine outside of Spellhold.
    3. Aphril-Sees Demons, all the time. Definitely belongs in Spellhold.
    4. Dradeel- Where do I start? I think he obviously needs to stay there
    That leaves the kid who shapeshifts, who is the only person in Spellhold who doesn't really need to be there at all.

  • ZalsonZalson Member Posts: 103

    I always played Northern Tales of the Sword Coast in my games. It ties the cult with the Dead Three (Bhaal, Myrkul, Bane, the ones who stole AO's tablets and caused the Time of Troubles).

    Lore note: Bhaal didn't steal the tablets of fate. That was Bane and Myrkul only. Just read the Avatar Series a few weeks ago.

    ZaramMaldovar
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    @Zalson
    Interesting. Any fan theories?

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    Zalson said:

    I always played Northern Tales of the Sword Coast in my games. It ties the cult with the Dead Three (Bhaal, Myrkul, Bane, the ones who stole AO's tablets and caused the Time of Troubles).

    Lore note: Bhaal didn't steal the tablets of fate. That was Bane and Myrkul only. Just read the Avatar Series a few weeks ago.

    The lore itself - this is a most interesting topic.
    You and your party travel the Realms and do this quest or that, enter dungeons, even fight at the Throne of Bhaal. None of your company has written their memoirs, all other witnesses are dead by your hand,
    Still those stories get told and many years later on a planet called Earth you can read books about it. How come?
    Stories got told at inns and bars, Volo travels the land and writes down stuff he picks up. There may be holes in his stories he needs to patch. After all he makes a living from telling those stories. And Volo writes best-sellers. Stuff gets copied and re-written, the truth is a secondary issue.
    In one mod episode I am currently playing, even worse things happen. The protagonist and one of his NPCs use Volo and the other bards on the Swordcoast to spread their version of an event they want the public and especially their enemies to believe. They invent a story to beat the greatest deceiver of all with his own weapons, the Prince of Lies. The result in the long term becomes part of the lore for further generations as all involved agree to never countermand the lie.
    The only ones to ever know the truth are the player and his comrads and they never tell.
    The rest is second or third hand news.
    In this context: the prophesy of Alaundo is a self-fulfilling prophesy planted with the intend to get a certain development in motion. Sarevok took that bite.

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    Theory #4:
    You really DO owe Ebrone money (or rather, someone else does)
    You don't have to read Ebrone's dialogue very closely to see that he says "I didn't build that ship (or was it boat?) for nothing".

    And what happens later in the game? You're on a ship. Coincidence? I think not!

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    Theory #5:
    Glint is secretly evil.

    Don't take this to mean I don't like the character, because he's my favorite out of the new SOD exclusive NPCs and ranks quite favorably overall, but he seems a little shifty to me. Maybe I'm just paranoid because Yoshimo turned on me.

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    Theory #6:
    Boo actually IS talking to Minsc.

    I know it seems far fetched, but is Boo perhaps a familiar? If not then Boo likely represents whatever is left of the critical thinking Minsc had before his accidents.

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    Theory #7:
    Sarevok was Irenicus's original target.

    This would explain why Irenicus was in the area of Baldur's Gate around the time of Sarevok's demise to speak with Gorion's Ward. After hearing of Sarevok's demise (or perhaps even witnessing it through some sort of divining power) he opted to target the two Bhaalspawn who defeated Sarevok instead.

    GrumDJKajuru
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017

    Theory #7:
    Sarevok was Irenicus's original target.

    This would explain why Irenicus was in the area of Baldur's Gate around the time of Sarevok's demise to speak with Gorion's Ward. After hearing of Sarevok's demise (or perhaps even witnessing it through some sort of divining power) he opted to target the two Bhaalspawn who defeated Sarevok instead.

    Yes.
    Sarevok's heritage was never hidden. As a child already his powers became visible. Those seeking for the blood of Bhaal could read the signs (e.g. Elminster but also Winski Perorate). The latter had plans to use the grown bhaalspawn as his tool for revenge against Rashemi who exiled him.
    Protagonist and Imoen on the other hand were shielded from any scrutiny by the remote Candlekeep and obvious magic protections from Gorion as long as he lived.
    When Irenicus began his search for bhaalspawns or godchilds in general, he surely found Sarevok but knew nothing about those others. But Irenicus is a master of improvisation (this has an interesting portrait of Irenicus and Sarevok characters https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/65181/wild-surge-issue-4-the-villains-issue), and as he cannot directly assault Sarevok under full protection of Winski, the Iron Throne and all his other vassals, he recognises the additional *potential* when protagonist and Imoen become all of a sudden visible to him after Gorion's death.
    And his waiting is rewarded - protagonist finally proves to be stronger than Sarevok. By SoD then, Caelar and Skie (who obviously is also a bhaalspawn) appear as additional candidates - thus Irenicus hooded man appearances here. By the end of SoD, Caelar is no longer an option (it is not stated anywhere that the godly soul Irenicus needs must be from Bhaal sources), Imoen may serve for Bodhi - and Skie is used then to exile protagonist from Baldur's Gate.
    The rest we know.
    (Sources - BG1NPC project, especially Dynaheir romance, Sandrah Saga, Drizzt Saga, E's letter to Gorion).

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017

    Theory #6:
    Boo actually IS talking to Minsc.

    I know it seems far fetched, but is Boo perhaps a familiar? If not then Boo likely represents whatever is left of the critical thinking Minsc had before his accidents.

    Boo aka Boolerion is an agent of Mystra to ward and protect Minsc for a mission only the ranger can fulfill. Boo's *talking* to Minsc is noticeable for some creatures (e.g. Haiass or Pelligram in their animal form). In addition, Boo preserves the *missing half* of Minsc's consciousness and later restores it to his ward.
    Minsc's mission is revealed later in BG2 when he meets a female orc mage Shauhana and becomes her protector. Boolerion is rewarded by Mystra for his service by allowing him to become a mortal hamster to stay with Minsc and to breed generations of hamsters. When Minsc establishes his own berserker lodge in the Stormhorns, he starts the rule that each berserker is given a hamster to protect and thus to prove the ability to care for those who need protection,
    (Source: ShauhanaNPC quest for EET)

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    edited June 2017
    @PaulaMigrate
    "Source: ShauhanaNPC Quest for EET"

    I really wish you'd stop using Modded content to back up your sources. It's fascinating really and I enjoy the extra lore and gameplay, but it proves nothing. I'm fairly certain the only mods that are canon are Unfinished Business.

    An example is that Jaheria and Khalid reveal small details about their life in SOD that contradict details from the BG1 NPC project. Seeing as how SOD is an actual game, those details are obviously the ones that are canon.

  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 996
    edited June 2017
    Unfinished Business spoiler :

    Well, if I remember correctly, in Unfinished Business, Elminster talks directly to Boo when you meet him in Baldur's Gate, implying that Boo is some kind of agent tasked with helping Minsc. Elminster being the chosen of Mystra, the mod content from @PaulaMigrate's comment is actually not as baseless as it sounds.

    Edit : Oh, and as a bonus sidequest, you also get to see Boo having lots of babies with another hamster. So yeah, the mod content makes sense.

  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,126
    @PaulaMigrate @Arctodus
    I apologize if I came across a rude.

    I wasn't implying that the modded content is baseless, simply that I don't think it counts as canon. It's still very good content and probably relavent to actual D&D lore. It simply isn't canon to the game however.

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