I don't understand Bhaal's Logic.
johntyl
Member Posts: 400
If killing Bhaalspawns would return the essence to Bhaal in the Abyss so that he can be revived, what was the logic behind spreading his essence to as many Bhaalspawns as possible? Wouldn't it make more sense to copulate with his most trusted priestess and have her bear his Bhaalspawn (with the majority of his essence inside) and then sacrifice the child to revive Bhaal, just like what Bane did with Iyachtu Xvim, his half-demon son?
It just seems inane of Bhaal to dilute his essence to so many Bhaalspawns who could very well venture somewhere remote and live their lives undisturbed and their essence forever trapped inside (just like many minor Bhaalspawn characters who were brought to Saradush only because of Melissan's ambition).
Or am I missing something here?
It just seems inane of Bhaal to dilute his essence to so many Bhaalspawns who could very well venture somewhere remote and live their lives undisturbed and their essence forever trapped inside (just like many minor Bhaalspawn characters who were brought to Saradush only because of Melissan's ambition).
Or am I missing something here?
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He wanted a lot of very weak children, so that no individual would get it into his head to try and usurp Bhaal's resurrection. He could count on them dying because of what the essence does to people: it either compels them to do terrible things (that get them killed eventually) or it makes them stand out enough for other people to do terrible things to them (also getting them killed). There was practically no chance of some Bhaalspawn simply living out their life peacefully in a cabin in the woods.
From some final words Melissan issued you can deduct that Bhaal did not need ALL the essence for his return, just some sufficient amount. Once returned, a god would be able to restore himself to full power. Bhaal was already stirring, he just needed the final ritual to unlock him.
Bhaal spawned creatures of different races and powers, like the Five or the protagonist who seem to have inherited more than e.g. Imoen or some children in Saradush. He could never assume that ALL would die conveniently for his return even with the plot he had left for it to happen. (Who gave the prophesy to Alaundo, by the way?).
And he knew that mighty enemies would try to seize the essence - Mystra, Cyric, the Harpers, and others) and that would be easier for them if it were all in one place/creature.
Killing each other does not truly fit Bhaals portfolio, if you think about it.
Maybe the part he told her was a shortcut, but not neccessary..
If you accept "Murder in Baldurs Gate" than Bhaal will be ressurected through *murder*.
My theory:
If you kill a Bhaalspawn your divine essence grows stronger. Making you grow into demigod regions.
That which brings back the Lord of Murder is the act of killing a divine being.
The more of his siblings a Bhaalspawn kills, the closer s/he gets to divinity.
As a backup, he told his High Priestess about the ritual and he can be sure that she will be ambitious enough to try to steal the divine essence for herself.
The thing that messed up his plan (or rather delayed it) was not Amelyssan, but the Solar.
If the last Bhaalspawn get kills by her, he would be reborn through this murder. If the last Bhaalspawn kills her and ascends to godhood, Bhal would try to takeover (similiar to Bane) - but the Solar offers a last possibility: seal the essence.
It takes one more murder, one more dead Bhaalspawn to finally allow him to return.
Or in other words, the plan would have worked perfectly if the Solar would not have intervened..
Also, I'm pretty sure he partly wanted an excuse to sleep with every women that hits one of his fetishes before he dies... =P
And who is Solar by the way. Where did he/she/it come from? She looks as though she is spawned from Lord Ao himself - a neutral being?
- the story of a bhaalspawn getting stronger by killing siblings was the bait for Bhaal's contingency plan B (Plan A was the one Gorion, Elminster and the Harpers spoiled by rescuing some spawns). The bait was laid out for ambitious spawns like Sarevok to do the dirty work for Bhaal. Evil gods don't make plans for successors but for eternal survival of themself
- the Solar, like all others (Cyric, Mystra, etc) was not allowed to intervene. It's an advisor and observer. He is a servant himself, not an actor.
- Bhaal had no reason to mistrust Amelyssan, when he fell she had not even yet developped the idea of her betrayal, in the beginning she and her fellow priests even made the attempt to execute Plan A first.
- the possibility to *purify* the essence of Bhaal and to create a new god's portfolio from it existed but was not to be revealed until a mortal actually seized it, as the *good* protagonist does when you defeat Melissan.
@Arcanis final remark may be true nonetheless.
Bhaal was once a mortal who became a god and he also created a plan to cheat fate..
Considering that evil people are usually ambitious and that someone who "lived" for a long time should know this, I find it hard to believe that Bhaal would *really* trust someone named "Amelyssan the Blackhearted"!
On the other points.. well, you have in-game info on your side, while all I have for my theory is conjecture..
But I want to argue that Bhaal *did* succeed.. when Viekang (that ungratefull bastard -_-) attacked Adrian/Charname and one of them died Bhaal *did* return.
There are three possibilities:
- The info of the game is correct, accurate and complete and he returned because AO felt like it
- WotC wanted to fully insert BG(EE) into the canon and accidently created a giant plothole
- Amelyssan did not know the full plan and Bhaal tricked us all..
Your argument allows possibility 1+2 (if I understand it fully) and I have to admit that the reason *is* most probably possibility 2 (and you are fully correct =P).
But I still like to fill that plothole ^^
Also, I'm not sure if the Solar can do something or not.
It has been a while since I played ToB, but I always thought the Solar was sent by AO - which means that her duty was to fulfill AOs plan, which would allow her to interviene or show all possibilities.
If AO wants to intervene, he always can... Maybe he wanted to keep Bhaal and Myrkul dead until he rewrote the tablets...
TL;DR: You are most probably right, but I think my version is more interesting =P
Ah, sorry, overlooked your post..
Well, Amelyssan absorbed much of the essence/power.
And she *is* a demigod thanks to the power. Which does mean, that your character also is nearing that status, or s/he would have no chance to defeat the Blackhearted.
Never forget that Irenicus is basicly an even elven copy of Elminster, which means that you defeated one of the most powerful "mortals" in the planes.
Never forget that this is just a theory, which is based on me trying to put logic into this plan, there is little to actually support it, only these things:
1) He created a bunch of children to somhow ressurect
2) He succeeded after the second sundering
3) He was crafty enough to work with Bane and Myrkul to become a deity
Here is a little snippet from a conversation, this may suggest something else. I will not spoil who the actors here are:
xxx~This creature was Bhaal himself and he planted another seed of his contingency plan here today.~
Kelemvor~And you help him with that?~
xxx~Not at all, I gave the turning wheel a little extra spin. When the roulette finally will stop, Bhaal will find himself the loser in his own game.~
xxx is not Melissan. Kelemvor was one of the four adventurers at the Time of Trouble who hunted renegade gods. You know who the others were...
Do you think you saw all the actors who were involved in this story already? The story started way back in the Time of Troubles and with all the unresolved issues from that period. Hard to imagine that in a development of such magnitudes all those involved would just sit still and observe what would happen and how some mortals would decide in those matters?
But the novel contradicts canon. And the official P&P books (not sure which one though, sorry) lists Bhaal as alive, so Murder of Baldurs Gate is canon. ^^
According to Canon Gorions Wards name is Abdel Adrian and he was a fighter that rejected godhood (Murder in Baldurs Gate).
The comic series, which is also canon thanks to WotCs usual policy, shows us that Minsc looks like the one in the games (and not the one in the novels) and he also knew Corvan (who he meets and recognises) and Neera (he confuses someone with Neera).
Though it is not certain that he truly is Minsc.. (either Minsc got petrified and got rescued or a statue of him was brough into life with his memories & character)
So, my take is that Abdel Adrian is nowadays ment to be a placeholder for your own charname.
Also, @PaulaMigrate can you please tell me where this is from? I don't know that quote but I'm curious
OK, so just to reiterate all your points and gather them in bite-size phrases:
1) Bhaal doesn't need all his essence to be resurrected. He just needs his priestesses to perform a ritual to revive him when a sufficient amount of essence has been absorbed back into the Abyss.
2) But Melissan/Amelyessan betrayed Bhaal by instead of performing the ritual, instigated the death of all Bhaalspawns so that she can absorb all the essence herself and become a demigod/lesser deity?
3) But Melissan did not forsee the intervention of Solar (who is probably sent to Charname by Lord AO as AO himself is interested in the fate of Charname, as hinted by Cyric in one of the challenges in the pocket plane)
4) Charname can choose to seal all of Bhaal's essence (thus leading to Bhaal's failure to resurrect) BUT since we do KNOW that Bhaal is alive after the second sundering, which means that Charname (in the canon) went for the latter choice which is to absorb all of Bhaal's essence to become a god. But my question is god of what? If Bhaal's essence is purified, what is Charname's new godly portfolio?
Am I on the right track so far?
If you are implying it was Bhaal himself who planted the prophesy into Alaundo's head, that can't be true as Alaundo lived during the time of 75DR while The Time of Troubles happened took place at 1358DR, unless he lived till then which will make him like 1000years old (I couldn't find the exact date of his death).
Mhm, no.
The plan was that *every* Bhaalspawn dies. Even Amelyssan wanted them all dead, she jsut htought she could absorb the power herself and just skip resurrecting Bhaal.
She only moved directly after she teleported every Bhaalspawn (aside from the ward, Imoen and the Five) into Saradush and then ensured their death via Fire Giants. (She did not know that Viakang got safed and allowed to leave).
So as far as she knew, every Bhaalspawn safe Charname and Immy are dead after they kill Balthasar.
She *thought* the ritual Bhaal told her was needed for him to return.
My theory was that he simply needed a *murder* on a divine scale. Like a fight between nigh-demigod Bhaalspawn vs a nigh-demigod traitor-priestess..
And even if she did not move at all, the Bhaalspawn have violent urges and the strong are compelled to kill their siblings (like Sarevok and the Five).
All he needed was for *all* the Bhaalspawn to die a violent death and if we look at MiBG it seems that Bhaalspawn -similiar to chosen- do not die of old age. Meaning every single one would have to be murdered, which fuels Bhaals return.
Kinda foolproof if you think about it - and if you are more or less dead, you do not care about the timeframe =P
Even vanilla game stands alone, otherwise we will have difficulties of seeing the SoD boss and the IWD boss as being the same.
Discussions of what people think is *canon* will always fail. Too many confuse it with *cannon* and start shooting.
*I'm outa here*, says Joey Ramone, who's Rock'n'Roll *canon*.
During the final dialogue, the Solar actually never directly mentions godhood. She says that you could retain the essence and be a power - not a god, a power. The actual word god is never mentioned in the dialogue.
Does the word "power" necessarily refers to godhood? Or could you call an Exarch, a Demigod, or simply a very powerful planeswalking entity a "power"? Because everyone here and beyond always talk about the godhood choice, but I'm not sure it's even godhood we're talking about.
What actually happens to you after the game is kinda cryptic, much like the end of PS:T.
Being a level 40 (or 34 paladin/ranger, or 31 mage) adventurer does make you about as close as a mortal could be from a superior power. Demigod, god or exarch are titles, they refer to a power level as well but that level may be reached without getting the actual title. Think Karsus, who was as powerful as Mystryl, who had to sacrifice to stop him. Karsus was an archmage without any actual godly title or anything, yet he was far more powerful than even most deities.
And, well, the end of ToB doesn't mark a fundamental change in gameplay, but you get to fight favoreds of Cyric, or the Ravager which is essentially your divine essence, and eventually Amelyssan, whose power is close to that of a god (suffice to see how easily she summons major demons, elemental princes and even a Fallen Solar).
Concerning the Solar, I often wondered that myself, but I came to the conclusion that she was indeed a spawn of Ao. The role of the Solar is not to influence you in your decisions, rather to point out your possibilities, to inform you on what you are, and make you ponder on certain aspects. She questions your decisions, not to make you change your mind but to open it to new perspectives. The only moment she really makes a comment about what you want to do is in the final dialogue, when she says she'll happily follow you should you choose godhood and have acted good, or that she despises you if you do so being Evil. This behaviour would be very much like Ao: he won't directly intervene in a given situation except if it endangers the existence of the Realms, but he'd still want the people involved to fully understand the various outcomes that are offered to them. To further support this theory, it's said at some point by the Solar that even Ao took interest in the Bhaalspawn episode. Ao hardly ever speaks to the god themselves, so a mere Solar wouldn't know about it except if Ao told her himself, for a good reason.
From what I understand here, it was only Amelyssan that wanted all Bhaalspawns dead so that she can gather as much of Bhaal's power within herself as only she has access to his essence.
If you think about it in retrospection, the Bhaalist priestesses were already planning to resurrect Bhaal when baby Charname was about to be sacrificed by his/her mom but Gorion and the Harpers intervened and hence that was put to a stop.
I think Bhaal's plan was pretty simple. Once enough Bhaalspawn's have been killed/sacrificed, all that is needed next is for his priestesss/Deathstalkers to perform the rites. I guess when Gorion and the Harpers intercepted them the first time, most of the Deathstalkers were killed off, leaving Amelyssan to have an idea of usurping Bhaal's power for herself.
Agreed.
They also say Allundro was a servant too although obviously a different sort.
~I greet you, god-child, you who are of divine blood. I have awaited you.~
Player:~And just who are you?~
~I have existed since the first strand of fate was woven, a servant of the paths and the gods. I have watched your own path most carefully.~
~Our own servant, who was the mortal Alaundo, spake the truths that became prophecy. It tells of your coming and of all the others who are the progeny of Bhaal.~
Wouldn't trust any of them.
a servant of the paths and the gods, i.e. not necessarily AO himself. And Alaundo was servant of Oghma, which does not automatically mean this part of his many prophesies came from Oghma.
We have to remember that there are far more actors here. @UnderstandMouseMagic says *Wouldn't trust any of them. *.
Cyric appears shortly prior ToB's final battle. In his speech he mentions at least two more involved. Kelemvor and Mystra. As we know all three of them became gods after the Time of Troubles and in their human life were involved to retrieve the tablets of fate for AO and defeat the *Dead Three*. And Cyric not only backstabbed Bhaal but also Midnight's (to become Mystra) lover Kelemvor, which makes them archenemies among the celestials.
Bhaal knew about his coming end and planned his return. Do you think all of this remained undetected by his enemies? Time, i.e. past/future means little to the gods.
The Time of Troubles are not over when the plot in Baldur's Gate evolves, too many issues from that period had remained unresolved. The period while the children grew up in Candlekeep was just a seasefire.